Delta JFK announcements

[General Lee]

Sorry General,

Gotta go with Nado on this one.....

He's absolutely right!! It was an absolute travesty we allowed those guys to come back....this was all done under the guise of "keeping us out of BK".

Parking the fleet wasn't our problem....the management played chicken and not to twist a Moak Cliche....WE BLINKED!! It just prolonged the inevitable, a trip to see the judge, while we furloughed and outsourced our jobs to RJ kids from the Delta Academy......sometimes as a group we need to point the finger at the mirror when trying to find blame.

Anyhoo....they could have ramped up the training to match the attrition, hell, JoKo could have been the check airman!!

Sorry Bill, but you and Nado are wrong. You have to control what is in front of you, and the problem at hand was having 400 plus guys retire in one month. The only thing ALPA could do was bargain with the company, or we would have parked and maybe sold parts of the fleet, like all of the 764s or maybe the 777s. We still have those planes now, and those "retired" guys are gone for good now also. You need to look at the big picture. And you KNOW that 400 retirements in one month and the length of time it really takes to certify a check airman via the FAA was a contributing factor, along with allowing the pilots to decide to retire up to the last moment of each of those months. There was NO WAY Delta could tell how many would go or would stay. That was in our contract, and that is a hard way to run a business. In the end, we kept the planes and you and I moved up 2300 numbers. (and the retired guys got most of their pension anyway) Delta could not predict how many would actually leave per month, and that is something that you need to understand. That in reality was our fault, for putting an unrealistic restriction on a business that needs to know how many people will be around to fly their planes. It would have been different if they had to give 30 days notice etc, but no, it was based on the GATT rate on the last day of each month. That stipulation was dumb on our part. Having mainly check airman stay to train other check airman not leaving was the only thing we could do not to lose our best flying.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Sorry Bill, but you and Nado are wrong. You have to control what is in front of you, and the problem at hand was having 400 plus guys retire in one month. The only thing ALPA could do was bargain with the company, or we would have parked and maybe sold parts of the fleet, like all of the 764s or maybe the 777s. We still have those planes now, and those "retired" guys are gone for good now also. You need to look at the big picture. And you KNOW that 400 retirements in one month and the length of time it really takes to certify a check airman via the FAA was a contributing factor, along with allowing the pilots to decide to retire up to the last moment of each of those months. There was NO WAY Delta could tell how many would go or would stay. That was in our contract, and that is a hard way to run a business. In the end, we kept the planes and you and I moved up 2300 numbers. (and the retired guys got most of their pension anyway) Delta could not predict how many would actually leave per month, and that is something that you need to understand. That in reality was our fault, for putting an unrealistic restriction on a business that needs to know how many people will be around to fly their planes. It would have been different if they had to give 30 days notice etc, but no, it was based on the GATT rate on the last day of each month. That stipulation was dumb on our part. Having mainly check airman stay to train other check airman not leaving was the only thing we could do not to lose our best flying.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Not our problem General....

Everything you said was right, but giving into stupid management (the verb, not the noun) was just another way this group was bent over, plain and simple.

Training could have been ramped up to cover the loss, there was zero motivation to do so by the company or the union. If flights were to cancel, the same result would have occurred.....Bankruptcy, but a lot sooner, which as hindsight would have it, the better.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease, like Northwest this summer. Flights there cancelled because of stupid manpower decisions and then changes came about. As long as this union was willing to write side letters bailing out stupid decisions by our "leaders", we (you and I) suffered as a result of this stagnation.....

It was a bad deal and we had to protect our revenue, but Jerry and the boys were singing the "We're going bankrupt and we'll get your pension too..." tune for a long time.....what would you do if you were 55?? On purpose, they were furloughing from the top AND the bottom....NOT OUR PROBLEM. We are not tasked to bail out management!!!! 5 billion wasn't enough?? NOT OUR PROBLEM.

Again....we let the horse out of the barn.....regional pay-for-training, Rj's, then retired pilots flying,....Pandora's box has been opened by this pilot group many times and we have only ourselves to blame!!

 

[General Lee]

Not our problem General....

Everything you said was right, but giving into stupid management (the verb, not the noun) was just another way this group was bent over, plain and simple.

Training could have been ramped up to cover the loss, there was zero motivation to do so by the company or the union. If flights were to cancel, the same result would have occurred.....Bankruptcy, but a lot sooner, which as hindsight would have it, the better.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease, like Northwest this summer. Flights there cancelled because of stupid manpower decisions and then changes came about. As long as this union was willing to write side letters bailing out stupid decisions by our "leaders", we (you and I) suffered as a result of this stagnation.....

It was a bad deal and we had to protect our revenue, but Jerry and the boys were singing the "We're going bankrupt and we'll get your pension too..." tune for a long time.....what would you do if you were 55?? On purpose, they were furloughing from the top AND the bottom....NOT OUR PROBLEM. We are not tasked to bail out management!!!! 5 billion wasn't enough?? NOT OUR PROBLEM.

Again....we let the horse out of the barn.....regional pay-for-training, Rj's, then retired pilots flying,....Pandora's box has been opened by this pilot group many times and we have only ourselves to blame!!

Sure it was our problem. If you didn't like Delta, you should have left. If we wanted to keep working for a certain airline, you do what you can to keep the airline flying, and fight out for our best interests in the courts or via collective bargaining. Yes, a strike is an option, but shutting down fleets and watching them get sold to pay off customers that had tickets is not a smart way to do business. In the end, you want those same planes there, because with less planes means less jobs total. We had to keep the planes there, and the only way to do it when we didn't know how many would leave each month, thanks to our contract, was to allow some room for training new people. Those people who could do that were early retired pilots, not over 60 guys. The FAA doesn't give out free check airman certificates to anyone. We had to do it, and it turned out well in the end, with those early retired guys leaving for good.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Sure it was our problem. If you didn't like Delta, you should have left. Bye Bye--General Lee

Wow....there's some advice...

Never said that I didn't like Delta, I don't agree with what my union does.

This union drives an alcoholic to the liquor store for more booze....but I guess with dues checkoff we don't really get a voice!!

 

[General Lee]

Wow....there's some advice...

Never said that I didn't like Delta, I don't agree with what my union does.

This union drives an alcoholic to the liquor store for more booze....but I guess with dues checkoff we don't really get a voice!!

Hey, I didn't like going thru BK either, but it was necessary thanks to Leo and his gang. I didn't like huge paycuts either, and I didn't think it was our fault for getting in a finacial mess, but it happened. The policy set by our union on the matter of early retirements with 24 hours notice was ridiculous. That is what I mean here. A lot of people did complain and said "the company has to deal with it." Well, they did the best they could, and we are lucky we didn't lose our 777s in the process. I agree, this union is sometimes unreasonable and can't fight for things that you and I want, but it is better than nothing, and things have to get better. Unfortunately we had to go thru BK to make this company stronger, and I hope Dalpa will do a good job in getting something back for it. We provided a heck of a lot of help.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Hey, I didn't like going thru BK either, but it was necessary thanks to Leo and his gang. I didn't like huge paycuts either, and I didn't think it was our fault for getting in a finacial mess, but it happened. The policy set by our union on the matter of early retirements with 24 hours notice was ridiculous. That is what I mean here. A lot of people did complain and said "the company has to deal with it." Well, they did the best they could, and we are lucky we didn't lose our 777s in the process. I agree, this union is sometimes unreasonable and can't fight for things that you and I want, but it is better than nothing, and things have to get better. Unfortunately we had to go thru BK to make this company stronger, and I hope Dalpa will do a good job in getting something back for it. We provided a heck of a lot of help.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Agreed.......BK was the result of Leo and his gang of 40 Thieves (VP's). We can only go up, because when you are at the bottom, up is the only way!!

The 8 airframe 777 program may have been parked, but not removed.....Leo parked em in 1999, so it wasn't that bad was it??

BTW General, just for my idea of where you are on the list, did you get any money OUTSIDE of the 2008 401k offset on this last payout?? Just curious.....

 

[Pat Fabin]

Didn't we have this argument 2 years ago? Valid points on all sides guys, but nothing we can do to change the past.

 

[General Lee]

Agreed.......BK was the result of Leo and his gang of 40 Thieves (VP's). We can only go up, because when you are at the bottom, up is the only way!!

The 8 airframe 777 program may have been parked, but not removed.....Leo parked em in 1999, so it wasn't that bad was it??

BTW General, just for my idea of where you are on the list, did you get any money OUTSIDE of the 2008 401k offset on this last payout?? Just curious.....

Yes.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[retired guy]

"(and the retired guys got most of their pension anyway)".....This is a quote from one of the General`s many, many posts.....I want to know just exactly what kind of Kool Aid this guy is drinking. The vast majority of the guys that retired in the year prior to bankruptcy lost upwards to half of their retirement. Almost all of us took the lump sum check, which accounted for half of the pension and were supposed (per our binding contract) to receive the remainder, monthly,for the rest of our lives. Those monies,(for the most part) and our medical benefits (again per our contract) went bye-bye...Hey..it`s just business they said. General, you are probably a nice enough guy, but, cut the B.S. please.

 

[FDJ2]

"(and the retired guys got most of their pension anyway)".....This is a quote from one of the General`s many, many posts.....I want to know just exactly what kind of Kool Aid this guy is drinking. The vast majority of the guys that retired in the year prior to bankruptcy lost upwards to half of their retirement. Almost all of us took the lump sum check, which accounted for half of the pension and were supposed (per our binding contract) to receive the remainder, monthly,for the rest of our lives. Those monies,(for the most part) and our medical benefits (again per our contract) went bye-bye...Hey..it`s just business they said. General, you are probably a nice enough guy, but, cut the B.S. please.

How much money did the company give the retired pilots when it settled with them in BK? What was the size of the claim the retired pilots received? What if anything are the retired pilots, such as yourself receiving in PBGC benefits? What will be your expected PBGC redistribution based on a 45 cent on the dollar from the PBGC's $2.2B claim.

 

[tomgoodman]

Half a loaf....

...The vast majority of the guys that retired in the year prior to bankruptcy lost upwards to half of their retirement. Almost all of us took the lump sum check, which accounted for half of the pension and were supposed (per our binding contract) to receive the remainder, monthly,for the rest of our lives. Those monies,(for the most part) and our medical benefits (again per our contract) went bye-bye...Hey..it`s just business they said...

Sad, but true. In light of such a swindle, it seems incredible that early retirement was still the wise move, but it was! Unfortunately for those still flying, greedy companies are not finished with their "just business" transactions.

 

[General Lee]

"(and the retired guys got most of their pension anyway)".....This is a quote from one of the General`s many, many posts.....I want to know just exactly what kind of Kool Aid this guy is drinking. The vast majority of the guys that retired in the year prior to bankruptcy lost upwards to half of their retirement. Almost all of us took the lump sum check, which accounted for half of the pension and were supposed (per our binding contract) to receive the remainder, monthly,for the rest of our lives. Those monies,(for the most part) and our medical benefits (again per our contract) went bye-bye...Hey..it`s just business they said. General, you are probably a nice enough guy, but, cut the B.S. please.

I never said you got all of your money, but MANY of the retired guys thought that the lump sum was the end of it. In fact, that is not the case for many. The retired guys got an $880 million claim in the claim sale, and the PBGC was made whole in their own claim. So, most got more than they were expecting. Hey, BK is tough. You can't expect everything to remain the same when a company goes BK. I understand that your medical benefits were reduced or rid of, and that is the same for me. We all pay more now for medical benefits, while our pay is less for a 757/767FO now than it was for a 727FO back when you were flying probably. That is the way it goes, and hopefully we will regain some of the things we lost. Good luck on your retirement, and I am a nice guy most of the time.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

"(and the retired guys got most of their pension anyway)".....This is a quote from one of the General`s many, many posts.....I want to know just exactly what kind of Kool Aid this guy is drinking. The vast majority of the guys that retired in the year prior to bankruptcy lost upwards to half of their retirement. Almost all of us took the lump sum check, which accounted for half of the pension and were supposed (per our binding contract) to receive the remainder, monthly,for the rest of our lives. Those monies,(for the most part) and our medical benefits (again per our contract) went bye-bye...Hey..it`s just business they said. General, you are probably a nice enough guy, but, cut the B.S. please.

Not so fast Retired guy....

You guys made out better than those still here....plain and simple, end of story!! We could point fingers at whose to blame all day long, but when the day ends.......you guys who left did better than the rest of us. Are you going to be the only one without medical after retirement??? I won't have it either......At least you got SOMETHING.

Will Burguey was lining your guys pockets in office and then robbing ours when out of office. Sue everybody.....that's the spirit!!! I'm not too sympathetic when a guy who left early with a lump cries me a river of his lost income....or medical!!

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Didn't we have this argument 2 years ago? Valid points on all sides guys, but nothing we can do to change the past.

Quite true......

But we can influence the future!!!

 

[michael707767]

Quite true......

But we can influence the future!!!

Want to influence the future? Stop voting yes to every POS that our union puts in front of us. It will never cease to amaze me what the Delta pilot group will vote yes too.

PS, that was not directed at you Bill.
PPS, unless you voted yes to LOA51

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Want to influence the future? Stop voting yes to every POS that our union puts in front of us. It will never cease to amaze me what the Delta pilot group will vote yes too.

PS, that was not directed at you Bill.
PPS, unless you voted yes to LOA51

Gotcha....

Last YES vote from me was for Furlough Assessments......