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Delta is going to sell Comair, yeah right!!!!!

  • Thread starter Thread starter N813CA
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79%N1,


OOOOH, somebody else agrees with me. As I have stated, Dalpa isn't always the root of all of your problems. Heavy Set can see it too-----Jetblue Emb190 rates (12 year Captain on 100 seat plane= $89 an hour) will not help you during any future pay negotiations. That was my point.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
General Lee said:
79%N1,


OOOOH, somebody else agrees with me. As I have stated, Dalpa isn't always the root of all of your problems. Heavy Set can see it too-----Jetblue Emb190 rates (12 year Captain on 100 seat plane= $89 an hour) will not help you during any future pay negotiations. That was my point.


Bye Bye--General Lee
I wonder how the new UAL 12 year 75/76 FO rate of $98.92 might affect you.
 
Maybe not but before they go, if they go, your company will still demand you match or them better. Maybe they'll get you to fly your 73's for JBlue numbers and your 77's for 73 rates. Who knows?

Pretty soon SWA will be "less than competitive" too.
 
Exactly......

You want Comair (Whom I DO NOT work for) to compare their salaries to JetBlue, Mesa, CHQ, Colgon Air, or whoever else.......but never want to compare your rates to SWA, Airtran, United, or USAIR!! At the "mainline" level, it is "We are not the problem", but at the regional it is the other way! Classic case of "look over there, nothing to see here!!!!"
 
I want to add something here, and this is not flame/sarcastic, but serious based on observation.

I think Comair needs Delta to survive, as do most (not all) Regionals need their major counterparts. Why? How many of them do you think would still be around if it not for the mainline agreements.

Case in point: most passengers recognize Comair jets not by the name Comair, but rather by the term "Delta Connection". In addition, a lot of people who are booked tickets on Comair do not have a choice. Example: someone books a trip from LAX to SBN via CVG with a ticket agent. All they know is to go to the Delta ticket counter when they arrive at LAX.

Another example: I had some family come visit me from the West Coast. Before one of them booked the flights, she wanted to know if she would be traveling on "one of those little airplanes". She said she was nervous to get on one and didn't like the fact that they are so crammed. She also thought the RJ's were owned and staffed by Delta Air Lines. When I mentioned Comair, she had no idea who they were. They all ended up buying tickets on Southwest. Why? Because they were familiar with the name and they knew the airplanes are larger.

Final example: a lot of my friends who travel for business say they do not like flying on any of the RJ's. They trust the airplanes and the pilots, but they hate the lack of space. They complain about the lack of space for bags above and under the seats, cramped seating, and the long flight times on small aircraft.

Now, before the bashing starts, let me say something. I do not fly for any passenger airline, so I have no stake in this. Also, as a professional pilot, I know that these airplanes are safe and that all of you are professional and competent, and I have no problem boarding an RJ.

What I posted was based on observations from non-pilot folks. The non-pilot traveler in our society is more comfortable flying on larger airliners and on airlines with traditional brand recognition, such as Delta, United, Northwest, etc, etc.

I think it possible (albeit not very probable) for Comair to survive without Delta, but not without some very hard work. Not too many people outside of CVG know Comair when they hear it, and many will think Comair is a new airline and not be aware of it's long history if it branches out on it's own. It is going to need some serious marketing and advertising.

Also, what cities are you going to serve and can you do it profitably with the RJ's? I'm not a financial guru on airline ops, but I've heard the RJ is more expensive to operate than a larger airplane on a given route. Would Comair branch out and possibly start operating Airbuses or 737's?

It appears that the trend is for the majors/legacies is to get out of operating the regionals as a separate entity and begin working with them on a contract basis like they have in years past. This helps keep a lot of the costs down and puts the burden of profitability on the regional airline itself.

I think what we are going to see is some of the regionals to exist only as code-sharing partners. Others are going to leave the mainline completely and attempt to operate as an independent low-cost airline.

Over time, two things are going to happen: ALL airlines are going to get very competitive and only the strong willl survive. Then, the remaining players will strengthen and some degree of stability will show itself in the industry. Until then, there are still going to be some rough riding ahead.
 
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Clyde said:
Final example: a lot of my friends who travel for business say they do not like flying on any of the RJ's. They trust the airplanes and the pilots, but they hate the lack of space. They complain about the lack of space for bags above and under the seats, cramped seating, and the long flight times on small aircraft.

You make some good points in your post. One observation I'd like to point out is that if someone feels cramped in a CRJ, it is their perception. The seats are actually as large or larger than most mainline aircraft, but on a full CRJ flight, it just feels cramped. Not to discount the passenger's feeleings, but they are highly subjective. Here is the data, courtesy of www.seatguru.com:

Delta MD-88 Economy Class: 31-33.0" pitch 17.0" width
Delta B737-800 Economy Class: 31.0" pitch 17.0" width
Delta B757-200 Economy Class: 31.0" pitch 17.0" width
Delta B767-400 Economy Class: 31-33.0" pitch 17-18.0" width
Delta B777-200 Economy Class: 31-33.0" pitch 17.0" width

Comair CRJ-40 Economy Class: 31.0" pitch 17.5" width
Comair CRJ-50 Economy Class: 31.0" pitch 17.5" width
Comair CRJ-70 Economy Class: 31.0" pitch 17.5" width
 
Heavy Set said:
Don't blame the Delta for future pay cuts - blame JetBlue. The new E190 rates make your Comair rates look expensive in comparison - that's just a fact. Regardless of your "relative" income vs. Delta or other majors, your rates will be compared with those of JetBlue or other 50-70 seat operators and it is difficult to justify "high" rates on the CRJ-200 when the E190 will have 50 more seats and yet considerably lower pay... Management will not compare Comair rates to Delta rates - they will look for "comparables" in terms of aircraft size and routes. With Mesa, CHQ and Skywest and now JetBlue lowering the bar even more with bigger aircraft, don't expect to be left out in the wage-reduction trend....
You're missing the point. When Comair pilots have high wages (compared to others), you jump up and down and say that pilot wages are why Comair won't grow. But when anyone dare says anything about DL mainline wages, you immediately cry that pilot wages have no impact on the companies financials.

So which is it?? Do pilot wages impact a companies fortune or misfortune?

Using your logic, DL mainline will NOT grow because your wages are still higher than JetBlue. Are you willing to take more cuts, since your pay is clearly NOT competitive with JetBlue?
 
Thank you, Medflyer.........Exactly my point! Thanks for the second.
 
Ream boat,

If United's pay goes down and then ours does even more---you will be making a heck of a lot less than we will. You better hope they don't go much lower or maybe hope they just go away, because our pay will ALWAYS be higher than yours. Nice comeback Sarge. Think a little next time before you pipe up.


Chosen one,

Nice comparison, but you forget that the width of the full cabin also has a lot to do with it, and the ability to upgrade to an even better first class seat is also high on the priority list of business travelers. Sure, everyone has stories of how they were stuck in the middle back seat of a 757 with no gasper fans and how bad it was. Those people are usually non revs or people on leisure trips with their 5 kids. The people that really pay a lot for tickets usually sit up front. Those are the people we want to attract, and they overwhelmingly HATE flying on RJs. I hear it all of the time. (except afellowaviator has a neighbor who loves them.....) Business pax love room to use their computers, stretch, eat a decent meal, get up and walk to a close bathroom, watch a movie, get up and get something out of their carry on, and walk on and off the plane without getting wet from the rain. That is the point, not width of seats in the back of a 757 vs an RJ.


79%N1,

We just gave up a billion dollars a year for 5 years. Most people thought management got a great deal. We are still paid well, and plenty retired early and are now on the beach. Delta hasn't even really taken close to that from the other employees, and management just got huge stock option grants after a 10% pay cut. If you want to compare companies, then you have to compare them equally--with the types of flying they perform. Delta would have to compare to NW, CO, and AA, since they are not in Chap 11 protection and they fly INTL and domestic flying. I believe our rates are now fairly close to their's now. Your flying consists of providing feed to a couple of our hubs using 50 and 70 seat jets. Who else does that? CHQ, Skywest, and ASA do that for Delta. Mesa does it for AWA, United, and USair. CHQ also does it for AA and USair with 50 seaters and United with 70 seaters. There are plenty of other examples. Those comparisons will be used by Fred Butrell eventually.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
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General Lee said:
.... because our pay will ALWAYS be higher than yours.

Bye Bye--General Lee
That may be, but apparently not quite as much as it once was. Enjoy that next round of "negotiations" slick!

Don't point out others payscales with respect to their peers if your not able to handle the truth about you and yours.

Now GFYS! You too 737 peealot!
 
Reamy,


You guys are in the next negotiations, not us. We avoided Chap 11 and have contributed greatly, and our next one is due in 5 years. If you know otherwise, then you might also know the lottery numbers for the Lotto. Sarge, it looks like your pay will decline next, and that isn't our fault or Dalpa's fault, but "competition." You will eventually have to justify those wages to Randy, and he will blame it on your friends at Mesa. That is the way it is. And, I am fine with our new pay scales. Most of the really senior FOs will now go to Captain to make up that pay difference. Looks like I may have a 777 FO slot in the near future. I can deal with Paris. Enjoy Sarge.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
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Hey General,

Maybe if you spent half as much time trying to make DAL a better company as you do trying to widen the gap between all the parties that make Delta, Delta, customers wouldn't be flocking elsewhere.

I sure hope the majority of DAL employees have a better attitude towards the prosperity of DAL than you do. You are obviously hell bent on alienating everyone.

Next time you ride of us, I hope you're man enough to come up front and introduce yourself and speak your mind. Tell us why you so enjoy hanging what you call our inevitable pay cut over us.

You're a tool....
 
Testy, testy. Come on man, I never said I advocated pay cuts for you guys. I said that you may have trouble holding on to your current pay rates (which I have said were fair). Every one of you guys thought Dalpa would try to $crew with your rates during our negotiations, and guess what? You were ALL WRONG. Delta then did an RFP for new jets, and you guys got very few. There is a reason for that, and it doesn't deal with me at all. Good ole X-ream-me likes to think that his shiznet don't stink, and unfortunately everyone will probably get some sort of pay cut in the near future, and look at us---- we really got hammered. (to the tune of $1 billion a year) I understand that and I am moving forward.


As far as jumping on you guys and revealing myself, well---right now I mostly jump ASA to PFN, and they have been nice. I guess the guys in ATL enjoy "The Dukes of Hazzard" and the "General Lee". That new movie coming out with Jessica Simpson will be "hot."


And, we have taken a lot more heat about pay cuts than you guys ever will. Relax.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 

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