Delta is going to sell Comair, yeah right!!!!!

[doh]

Wow, I did not realize that the General hates us so much. Good natured tounge in cheek is one thing but to get that vicious. General, are you ex military. Those guys are usually the ones who spew the hate. And I thought you were really interested in solutions. It just goes to show...

 

[MedFlyer]

Ream-boat,
OBVIOUSLY you don't know what really happened there. We had a very very large base there at one time, with 1700 pilots and many many aircraft types. We used to do well there, but after 9-11 happened, we parked some Express 737s (due ot the FOs getting furloughed), and then readjusted our fleet. When we started Song we had to move 757s out of mainline and then move other airplanes up to cover for those missing mainline 757s. Someone decided that RJs would cover DFW just as well as 737-300s or MD-90s on some routes----and boy oh boy were they wrong. Passengers (especially business passengers) really hated flying them long distances---like to SNA and ONT, or OAK and DCA---and the place fell apart. It just proved a plane---the RJ---50 or 70 seater---cannot save a base. Yeah, we used to make a lot of money in DFW, but then an airplane swap sealed the deal. Have a great night Sarge.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Obviously, you don't know what happened. DL routinely lost money at DFW throughout all the years. DL lost money at DFW for 9 out of the last 12 years which means DL was losing money at DFW long before 9/11. DL was losing money at DFW even when there were 200 mainline flights.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/9617144.htm

"Delta has lost money for nine of the last 12 years at D/FW, and the hub has long been regarded as its poorest-performing operation."

It's scary how uninformed and misguided some pilots are about the company they work for.

 

[General Lee]

Medflyer,


I never gave a specific date on when we were profitable, so there. We OBVIOUSLY WERE PROFITABLE at some point---we had 1700 pilots based there at one time. The last ditch effort to save DFW with RJs led to an even faster closing. What have we learned from this last ditch effort? Don't use RJs to cover for mainline aircraft, the majority of business people dislike flying on them on long flights.


But, since we are leaving DFW and you guys want so desperately to go independent, maybe you guys should start your own DFW hub---like Indy Air. Great idea. Everybody loved the fact that Indy broke off from United and "went for it"---and subsequently was smacked.




Doh,

No, I don't hate all Comair pilots, and no---I wasn't an Ex-military pilot. There are a few people on this board that like to think their shiznit don't stink, but other than that I think most average Comair line pilots are swell. Now, as for the Comair MEC, Lawson in particular, and the Ford bunch with the RJDC---well, that might be a different story. I guess we all have our own opinions, and mine is fairly well known. Have a good one.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[bvt1151]

Medflyer,


I never gave a specific date on when we were profitable, so there.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Now you're reaching, General.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Now you're reaching, General.

NOW he's reaching? Everything that roothugger says is a reach. "They used to have 1700 pilots in DFW so they must have been profitable." Wrong Oracle of Atlanta all that means is that it used to lose more money than it does now.

GFYS Private!

 

[surplus1]

But, since we are leaving DFW and you guys want so desperately to go independent, maybe you guys should start your own DFW hub---like Indy Air. Great idea. Everybody loved the fact that Indy broke off from United and "went for it"---and subsequently was smacked.

General ..... not DFW or any of the other places in your previous post. How about CVG? With just a little bit of effort we could make that one unprofitable for you too. Maybe the people of Cincy would love an LCC, operated by their hometown airline.

Maybe you should bid international, I wouldn't want you to wind up with nothing to do.

There are a few people on this board that like to think their shiznit don't stink,

Well, you got that right, and 90% of them are employed by Delta Air Lines. It's interesting to reflect on how your "new generation" has turned the once proud "gentlemen of Delta" into a collection of low class, pompus and supercilious whiners. Too bad the old timers couldn't prevent the barrel from being contaminated by the bad apples. It sure doesn't take long to go from respectable to riff raff. Pity.

 

[MedFlyer]

Medflyer,

I never gave a specific date on when we were profitable, so there. We OBVIOUSLY WERE PROFITABLE at some point---we had 1700 pilots based there at one time.

Who cares how many pilots you had based there? That's no sign of profitability. TWA had thousands of pilots based at STL, yet they routinely lost money. The DFW hub was a loser from the day it was started to the day it was closed.

The last ditch effort to save DFW with RJs led to an even faster closing.

What a load of BS! If RJ's had not been around, the DFW hub would have closed shortly after 9/11. You said yourself that DL had to pullmany mainline planes out of DFW to cover other areas after 9/11. What would have replaced those mainline planes if not for RJ's? Was DL going to fly EMB120's from DFW to SNA?

What have we learned from this last ditch effort? Don't use RJs to cover for mainline aircraft, the majority of business people dislike flying on them on long flights.

On this point we basically agree. RJ's can't fix mainline problems. DL mainline was a broken product...a combination of skyrocketing costs and declining service. Instead of fixing these problems, DL management and DALPA stuck their heads in the sand.

 

[ASADFW7]

I am tired of reading blame the friggen CRJ they are the reason Delta is losing money. DFW would be profitable it the Delta boys still had it in their back pocket. They never did.

I would welcome some truth here.

 

[surplus1]

I would welcome some truth here.

Don't expect that from the General. He lives in his own little fantasy world of what used to be. He bought into an illusion of grandeur and it didn't turn out like he expected. Now he can't deal with it.

 

[HowlinMadMurdoc]

Uh oh, now you've done it. The Oracle, er, General will be along shortly to educate us all, based on his years (or months) of reading WSJ and IBD, that DFW WAS profitable because, by golly, DL had 1700 pilots based there. Isn't that a sure sign of making money? I'm still wondering how someone can sleep through their entire Econ/Accounting/Bus Finance class in college and still graduate.

Ever heard of the corporate finance term, "operational loss", what it means, and how it fits into the overall corporate financial structure?

Too funny.

HMM

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Don't expect that from the General. He lives in his own little fantasy world of what used to be. He bought into an illusion of grandeur and it didn't turn out like he expected. Now he can't deal with it.

That or... he's just a dik!

 

[dgarro]

General lee

Go and ride your own snake, Maybe one day I could meet you so I could smack you!!! Later dgarro

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,


What are you talking about? I still love my job. I am still paid fairly well (since I don't have much debt at all---no kids, medium sized house North of ATL with average monthly payments) and I fly what I want to where I want, in really nice planes. I have some great SAN layovers this month. Dinner in the Gas Lamp district, a run each morning near Seaport Village, and then one leg home late in the afternoon. Next month I have long San Juan layovers---but I probably won't be doing as much running!



Howlin,

We obviously had some profitable years, just not the last bunch. The RJ hub did not do a better job of keeping passengers, and in fact alienated many more.
There have been plenty of articles stating that fact, and from our best customers. RJs are good for certain stage lengths, but not over a certain amount--like 2 hours. That was addressed by Grinstein, yet for some reason he still places them on some long flights. Why? We don't have the mainline equipment available currently.



Medflyer,

Oh, I guess I didn't know about TWA having so many pilots and being unprofitable. Thanks Professor. And flying E120s from DFW to SNA? I am surprised it wasn't tried. I bet some of you guys would do it, though. What would have replaced some of those 757s that were transferred to Song? Well, at that time we still had some money, and we could have bought some used Boeings probably. National Airlines of LAS had just gone bankrupt, so we could have picked up some used 757s for cheap and kept some mainline aircraft there. The RJs in DFW just didn't bring in enough feed to fill our other planes. It almost seemed like RJs were feeding RJs, and at low fares to compete with AA. Not good.


Reamy,

I thought you were in the Military? Quit talking about my dik---you know you can't do that. Quit obsessing, and I am not that way.....sorry.


dgarro,

What? Ok........? Riiiiiiggght.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[79%N1]

How come........

The Big Boy 'Major' mainline guys always say when their parent company (Read Delta, USAIR, United, here) loses money, and is in debt on the brink of bankrupcy that it is NOT pilot salary costs that is to blame (which I mostly agree with), but it is overall management/mismanagement, etc......to blame for the debt.

BUT.............

Concerning Regional (RJ) Pilots ------- It is our (meager) salaries that make us uncompetitive with the likes of Mesa, CHQ, etc......????

This doesnt make sense! Either pilot costs are directly the cause of a companies fiscal woes, or they arent. Its so funny how GEN LEE, FDJ2, et al extoll how it is Comairs overpaid pilots (LOL) that hurt their chances for future growth within DCI or as an independant company, and may EVEN REFLECT NEGATIVELY ON DELTAS BOTTOM LINE!!!! But mainline salaries ARE NEVER a factor in their companies woes!!!!! HYPOCRITICAL at best, laughable at worst!

 

[Heavy Set]

How come........

The Big Boy 'Major' mainline guys always say when their parent company (Read Delta, USAIR, United, here) loses money, and is in debt on the brink of bankrupcy that it is NOT pilot salary costs that is to blame (which I mostly agree with), but it is overall management/mismanagement, etc......to blame for the debt.

BUT.............

Concerning Regional (RJ) Pilots ------- It is our (meager) salaries that make us uncompetitive with the likes of Mesa, CHQ, etc......????

This doesnt make sense! Either pilot costs are directly the cause of a companies fiscal woes, or they arent. Its so funny how GEN LEE, FDJ2, et al extoll how it is Comairs overpaid pilots (LOL) that hurt their chances for future growth within DCI or as an independant company, and may EVEN REFLECT NEGATIVELY ON DELTAS BOTTOM LINE!!!! But mainline salaries ARE NEVER a factor in their companies woes!!!!! HYPOCRITICAL at best, laughable at worst!

Don't blame the Delta for future pay cuts - blame JetBlue. The new E190 rates make your Comair rates look expensive in comparison - that's just a fact. Regardless of your "relative" income vs. Delta or other majors, your rates will be compared with those of JetBlue or other 50-70 seat operators and it is difficult to justify "high" rates on the CRJ-200 when the E190 will have 50 more seats and yet considerably lower pay... Management will not compare Comair rates to Delta rates - they will look for "comparables" in terms of aircraft size and routes. With Mesa, CHQ and Skywest and now JetBlue lowering the bar even more with bigger aircraft, don't expect to be left out in the wage-reduction trend....

 

[General Lee]

79%N1,


OOOOH, somebody else agrees with me. As I have stated, Dalpa isn't always the root of all of your problems. Heavy Set can see it too-----Jetblue Emb190 rates (12 year Captain on 100 seat plane= $89 an hour) will not help you during any future pay negotiations. That was my point.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[XRMEFLYER]

79%N1,


OOOOH, somebody else agrees with me. As I have stated, Dalpa isn't always the root of all of your problems. Heavy Set can see it too-----Jetblue Emb190 rates (12 year Captain on 100 seat plane= $89 an hour) will not help you during any future pay negotiations. That was my point.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I wonder how the new UAL 12 year 75/76 FO rate of $98.92 might affect you.

 

[Heavy Set]

I wonder how the new UAL 12 year 75/76 FO rate of $98.92 might affect you.

UAL won't be around much longer for comparison....

 

[surplus1]

Maybe not but before they go, if they go, your company will still demand you match or them better. Maybe they'll get you to fly your 73's for JBlue numbers and your 77's for 73 rates. Who knows?

Pretty soon SWA will be "less than competitive" too.

 

[737 Pylt]

GFYS Private!

Some things never change.
Ream job is still a tool!

 

[79%N1]

Exactly......

You want Comair (Whom I DO NOT work for) to compare their salaries to JetBlue, Mesa, CHQ, Colgon Air, or whoever else.......but never want to compare your rates to SWA, Airtran, United, or USAIR!! At the "mainline" level, it is "We are not the problem", but at the regional it is the other way! Classic case of "look over there, nothing to see here!!!!"

 

[Clyde]

I want to add something here, and this is not flame/sarcastic, but serious based on observation.

I think Comair needs Delta to survive, as do most (not all) Regionals need their major counterparts. Why? How many of them do you think would still be around if it not for the mainline agreements.

Case in point: most passengers recognize Comair jets not by the name Comair, but rather by the term "Delta Connection". In addition, a lot of people who are booked tickets on Comair do not have a choice. Example: someone books a trip from LAX to SBN via CVG with a ticket agent. All they know is to go to the Delta ticket counter when they arrive at LAX.

Another example: I had some family come visit me from the West Coast. Before one of them booked the flights, she wanted to know if she would be traveling on "one of those little airplanes". She said she was nervous to get on one and didn't like the fact that they are so crammed. She also thought the RJ's were owned and staffed by Delta Air Lines. When I mentioned Comair, she had no idea who they were. They all ended up buying tickets on Southwest. Why? Because they were familiar with the name and they knew the airplanes are larger.

Final example: a lot of my friends who travel for business say they do not like flying on any of the RJ's. They trust the airplanes and the pilots, but they hate the lack of space. They complain about the lack of space for bags above and under the seats, cramped seating, and the long flight times on small aircraft.

Now, before the bashing starts, let me say something. I do not fly for any passenger airline, so I have no stake in this. Also, as a professional pilot, I know that these airplanes are safe and that all of you are professional and competent, and I have no problem boarding an RJ.

What I posted was based on observations from non-pilot folks. The non-pilot traveler in our society is more comfortable flying on larger airliners and on airlines with traditional brand recognition, such as Delta, United, Northwest, etc, etc.

I think it possible (albeit not very probable) for Comair to survive without Delta, but not without some very hard work. Not too many people outside of CVG know Comair when they hear it, and many will think Comair is a new airline and not be aware of it's long history if it branches out on it's own. It is going to need some serious marketing and advertising.

Also, what cities are you going to serve and can you do it profitably with the RJ's? I'm not a financial guru on airline ops, but I've heard the RJ is more expensive to operate than a larger airplane on a given route. Would Comair branch out and possibly start operating Airbuses or 737's?

It appears that the trend is for the majors/legacies is to get out of operating the regionals as a separate entity and begin working with them on a contract basis like they have in years past. This helps keep a lot of the costs down and puts the burden of profitability on the regional airline itself.

I think what we are going to see is some of the regionals to exist only as code-sharing partners. Others are going to leave the mainline completely and attempt to operate as an independent low-cost airline.

Over time, two things are going to happen: ALL airlines are going to get very competitive and only the strong willl survive. Then, the remaining players will strengthen and some degree of stability will show itself in the industry. Until then, there are still going to be some rough riding ahead.

 

[Chosen One]

Final example: a lot of my friends who travel for business say they do not like flying on any of the RJ's. They trust the airplanes and the pilots, but they hate the lack of space. They complain about the lack of space for bags above and under the seats, cramped seating, and the long flight times on small aircraft.

You make some good points in your post. One observation I'd like to point out is that if someone feels cramped in a CRJ, it is their perception. The seats are actually as large or larger than most mainline aircraft, but on a full CRJ flight, it just feels cramped. Not to discount the passenger's feeleings, but they are highly subjective. Here is the data, courtesy of www.seatguru.com:

Delta MD-88 Economy Class: 31-33.0" pitch 17.0" width
Delta B737-800 Economy Class: 31.0" pitch 17.0" width
Delta B757-200 Economy Class: 31.0" pitch 17.0" width
Delta B767-400 Economy Class: 31-33.0" pitch 17-18.0" width
Delta B777-200 Economy Class: 31-33.0" pitch 17.0" width

Comair CRJ-40 Economy Class: 31.0" pitch 17.5" width
Comair CRJ-50 Economy Class: 31.0" pitch 17.5" width
Comair CRJ-70 Economy Class: 31.0" pitch 17.5" width

 

[MedFlyer]

Don't blame the Delta for future pay cuts - blame JetBlue. The new E190 rates make your Comair rates look expensive in comparison - that's just a fact. Regardless of your "relative" income vs. Delta or other majors, your rates will be compared with those of JetBlue or other 50-70 seat operators and it is difficult to justify "high" rates on the CRJ-200 when the E190 will have 50 more seats and yet considerably lower pay... Management will not compare Comair rates to Delta rates - they will look for "comparables" in terms of aircraft size and routes. With Mesa, CHQ and Skywest and now JetBlue lowering the bar even more with bigger aircraft, don't expect to be left out in the wage-reduction trend....

You're missing the point. When Comair pilots have high wages (compared to others), you jump up and down and say that pilot wages are why Comair won't grow. But when anyone dare says anything about DL mainline wages, you immediately cry that pilot wages have no impact on the companies financials.

So which is it?? Do pilot wages impact a companies fortune or misfortune?

Using your logic, DL mainline will NOT grow because your wages are still higher than JetBlue. Are you willing to take more cuts, since your pay is clearly NOT competitive with JetBlue?

 

[79%N1]

Thank you, Medflyer.........Exactly my point! Thanks for the second.

 

[General Lee]

Ream boat,

If United's pay goes down and then ours does even more---you will be making a heck of a lot less than we will. You better hope they don't go much lower or maybe hope they just go away, because our pay will ALWAYS be higher than yours. Nice comeback Sarge. Think a little next time before you pipe up.


Chosen one,

Nice comparison, but you forget that the width of the full cabin also has a lot to do with it, and the ability to upgrade to an even better first class seat is also high on the priority list of business travelers. Sure, everyone has stories of how they were stuck in the middle back seat of a 757 with no gasper fans and how bad it was. Those people are usually non revs or people on leisure trips with their 5 kids. The people that really pay a lot for tickets usually sit up front. Those are the people we want to attract, and they overwhelmingly HATE flying on RJs. I hear it all of the time. (except afellowaviator has a neighbor who loves them.....) Business pax love room to use their computers, stretch, eat a decent meal, get up and walk to a close bathroom, watch a movie, get up and get something out of their carry on, and walk on and off the plane without getting wet from the rain. That is the point, not width of seats in the back of a 757 vs an RJ.


79%N1,

We just gave up a billion dollars a year for 5 years. Most people thought management got a great deal. We are still paid well, and plenty retired early and are now on the beach. Delta hasn't even really taken close to that from the other employees, and management just got huge stock option grants after a 10% pay cut. If you want to compare companies, then you have to compare them equally--with the types of flying they perform. Delta would have to compare to NW, CO, and AA, since they are not in Chap 11 protection and they fly INTL and domestic flying. I believe our rates are now fairly close to their's now. Your flying consists of providing feed to a couple of our hubs using 50 and 70 seat jets. Who else does that? CHQ, Skywest, and ASA do that for Delta. Mesa does it for AWA, United, and USair. CHQ also does it for AA and USair with 50 seaters and United with 70 seaters. There are plenty of other examples. Those comparisons will be used by Fred Butrell eventually.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[XRMEFLYER]

.... because our pay will ALWAYS be higher than yours.

Bye Bye--General Lee

That may be, but apparently not quite as much as it once was. Enjoy that next round of "negotiations" slick!

Don't point out others payscales with respect to their peers if your not able to handle the truth about you and yours.

Now GFYS! You too 737 peealot!

 

[General Lee]

Reamy,


You guys are in the next negotiations, not us. We avoided Chap 11 and have contributed greatly, and our next one is due in 5 years. If you know otherwise, then you might also know the lottery numbers for the Lotto. Sarge, it looks like your pay will decline next, and that isn't our fault or Dalpa's fault, but "competition." You will eventually have to justify those wages to Randy, and he will blame it on your friends at Mesa. That is the way it is. And, I am fine with our new pay scales. Most of the really senior FOs will now go to Captain to make up that pay difference. Looks like I may have a 777 FO slot in the near future. I can deal with Paris. Enjoy Sarge.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[chperplt]

Hey General,

Maybe if you spent half as much time trying to make DAL a better company as you do trying to widen the gap between all the parties that make Delta, Delta, customers wouldn't be flocking elsewhere.

I sure hope the majority of DAL employees have a better attitude towards the prosperity of DAL than you do. You are obviously hell bent on alienating everyone.

Next time you ride of us, I hope you're man enough to come up front and introduce yourself and speak your mind. Tell us why you so enjoy hanging what you call our inevitable pay cut over us.

You're a tool....

 

[General Lee]

Testy, testy. Come on man, I never said I advocated pay cuts for you guys. I said that you may have trouble holding on to your current pay rates (which I have said were fair). Every one of you guys thought Dalpa would try to $crew with your rates during our negotiations, and guess what? You were ALL WRONG. Delta then did an RFP for new jets, and you guys got very few. There is a reason for that, and it doesn't deal with me at all. Good ole X-ream-me likes to think that his shiznet don't stink, and unfortunately everyone will probably get some sort of pay cut in the near future, and look at us---- we really got hammered. (to the tune of $1 billion a year) I understand that and I am moving forward.


As far as jumping on you guys and revealing myself, well---right now I mostly jump ASA to PFN, and they have been nice. I guess the guys in ATL enjoy "The Dukes of Hazzard" and the "General Lee". That new movie coming out with Jessica Simpson will be "hot."


And, we have taken a lot more heat about pay cuts than you guys ever will. Relax.


Bye Bye--General Lee