Delta in SEA?

[767/757]

I could have phrased "That explaination is incorrect" a bit better... it's amazing how many people think that the 7ER pilots only fly 767-300ER aircraft.

I understood the question to be about the aircraft not what pilots fly.....


Former PCP

 

[Fubijaakr]

I'd agree that you don't need a 320 base in SEA. The DAL/AS agreement will give you guys the West Coast feed you need.

That said, I'm still not convinced that once DAL has digested NWA they won't assimilate AS as well. If for no other reason but to deny that precious West Coast feed to AA and open more seats for themselves.

 

[~~~^~~~]

If we merge with Alaska, can we hire the APA to handle our merger?

 

[AKMD80GUY]

If we merge with Alaska, can we hire the APA to handle our merger?

This is a staple free zone.

 

[licorice]

This is a staple free zone.

Interesting to note, just looked up Alaska's profile on APC. Largest airplanes are the newer 737s -800s? (I think)--APC shows their Capt. payrate on that aircraft to be almost exactly the same as DAL's rate on the -800. If it happens, (buy-out or merger w/DAL) looks like your most senior capts. would start to "merge" into our list (by status & category) at about number 2000 or so, with MD-80 Capts. going a little lower, maybe about 3 - 4000 or so. How does that sound to you, AKMD80GUY?....What!!! You want what???!!!---Date of Hire????:laugh: I'm sure the former NW pilots would support you!!!....right, NW guys??:bomb: (The Delta pilots (all of us) more than likely, will not [ask the [likely] arbitrators, to] staple you!)

 

[General Lee]

Interesting to note, just looked up Alaska's profile on APC. Largest airplanes are the newer 737s -800s? (I think)--APC shows their Capt. payrate on that aircraft to be almost exactly the same as DAL's rate on the -800. If it happens, (buy-out or merger w/DAL) looks like your most senior capts. would start to "merge" into our list (by status & category) at about number 2000 or so, with MD-80 Capts. going a little lower, maybe about 3 - 4000 or so. How does that sound to you, AKMD80GUY?....What!!! You want what???!!!---Date of Hire????:laugh: I'm sure the former NW pilots would support you!!!....right, NW guys??:bomb:

I am sure they would TRY to say the 737-900 is the same size as a 757, so they deserve to be placed in a ratio starting at the 757/767, but I don't think Dalpa or any arbitrator would go for it (the NWA 757-300 was placed in with our 757-200s and 767s).

Most likelyhood they would blend them in in some ratio from the 737-800s down. Their career expectations do not include anything larger at this point.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

Most likelyhood they would blend them in in some ratio from the 737-800s down. Their career expectations do not include anything larger at this point.


Bye Bye--General Lee

When faced with a similar disparity with AAA/AWA, where one carrier brings wide bodied international categories and the other doesn't, Nicolau added up all the international positions, both captain and first officer and then started the ratios from that point. The justification for adding the first officer positions was that the senior AWA pilots did not have an expectation of those wide bodied positions and by adding in the first officer positions he protected the AAA first officer expectations of bidding those wide bodied captain slots when they became available.

 

[Fubijaakr]

If we merge with Alaska, can we hire the APA to handle our merger?

Ouch.

From what I've seen, DAL SLIs are pretty fair. The earlier poster who posited merging Alaska pilots in with the DAL 737-800 guys probably has the right idea. Of course, Gen. Lee and his ilk will probably demand a "forever" fence around the widebodies due to "career expectations".

Personally, I tend to believe that once the SLI takes place, everyone has the same career expectations, so that kind of fence is merely divisive and helps the Company keep the pilot group at odds with each other.

After the SLI, all positions should be open for bid using system seniority. That's the only fair way to proceed.

 

[GogglesPisano]

After the SLI, all positions should be open for bid using system seniority. That's the only fair way to proceed.

Sure. A guy chooses to work at a company with no possibility of ever flying a widebody, another chooses to work at a company that has a global network with a significant percentage of its fleet composed of widebodies. The carriers merge and now they have identical career expectations?

Arbitrators look at career expectations in effect prior to mergers -- when people made the decision to join up.

 

[General Lee]

Ouch.

From what I've seen, DAL SLIs are pretty fair. The earlier poster who posited merging Alaska pilots in with the DAL 737-800 guys probably has the right idea. Of course, Gen. Lee and his ilk will probably demand a "forever" fence around the widebodies due to "career expectations".

Personally, I tend to believe that once the SLI takes place, everyone has the same career expectations, so that kind of fence is merely divisive and helps the Company keep the pilot group at odds with each other.

After the SLI, all positions should be open for bid using system seniority. That's the only fair way to proceed.

I guess you haven't been paying attention to what has been going on. In the Nicelau award with AWA/USAir, he put the top 500 pilots all USAir East since they had INTL operations and AWA didn't. Our DL/NWA award had ratios with airplanes taken into consideration too. If we ever do buy you guys and eventually merge, we will see what you bring to the table. Don't expect it to be fair. Expect a ratio and expect the bottom guy to be an AK pilot. If you guys buy DL, then we could expect the same I guess.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Mea25000]

I think AS is all but sold but not to DAL. Our management although appearing to be a bunch of Neanderthals who are just plain lucky have found themselves holding a loaded deck once again. I think in all honesty they are much smarter then we give any of them credit. After all no one is this lucky. They just happen to not care much for us pilots. DAL served its purpose and allowed those at Angle Lake to get the price they were looking for from the company they preferred to sell too. So all you DAL boys I wouldn’t get to excited flush us out of SEA it doesn’t look like you will have that chance. Maybe Richard will buy JetBlue and you boys can fight over all those 320’s in JFK.

 

[AKMD80GUY]

Interesting to note, just looked up Alaska's profile on APC. Largest airplanes are the newer 737s -800s? (I think)--APC shows their Capt. payrate on that aircraft to be almost exactly the same as DAL's rate on the -800. If it happens, (buy-out or merger w/DAL) looks like your most senior capts. would start to "merge" into our list (by status & category) at about number 2000 or so, with MD-80 Capts. going a little lower, maybe about 3 - 4000 or so. How does that sound to you, AKMD80GUY?....What!!! You want what???!!!---Date of Hire????:laugh: I'm sure the former NW pilots would support you!!!....right, NW guys??:bomb: (The Delta pilots (all of us) more than likely, will not [ask the [likely] arbitrators, to] staple you!)

Easy there tough guy. When mentioning APA any group needs to wory about a staple job. I wasn't trying to imply I wanted date of hire if we were so lucky enough to be merged with the mighty D. I don't need to fly a 76-ER like you to feel like a big time pilot. I'm perfectly happy collecting my paycheck in a 737.

 

[General Lee]

I think AS is all but sold but not to DAL. Our management although appearing to be a bunch of Neanderthals who are just plain lucky have found themselves holding a loaded deck once again. I think in all honesty they are much smarter then we give any of them credit. After all no one is this lucky. They just happen to not care much for us pilots. DAL served its purpose and allowed those at Angle Lake to get the price they were looking for from the company they preferred to sell too. So all you DAL boys I wouldn’t get to excited flush us out of SEA it doesn’t look like you will have that chance. Maybe Richard will buy JetBlue and you boys can fight over all those 320’s in JFK.

If CAL and UAL get together, look for DL to look at you a bit closer. As a close code share partner, I bet we are looking at your books anyway. With the lack of route overlap, a buyout would probably be swift. And, don't hope for DOH. I am thinking 1 AK guy, then 7 DL and FNWA pilots---starting at about 4500.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[alaskaplt]

I think AS is all but sold but not to DAL. Our management although appearing to be a bunch of Neanderthals who are just plain lucky have found themselves holding a loaded deck once again. I think in all honesty they are much smarter then we give any of them credit. After all no one is this lucky. They just happen to not care much for us pilots. DAL served its purpose and allowed those at Angle Lake to get the price they were looking for from the company they preferred to sell too. So all you DAL boys I wouldn’t get to excited flush us out of SEA it doesn’t look like you will have that chance. Maybe Richard will buy JetBlue and you boys can fight over all those 320’s in JFK.

Who are you thinking? AMR, CAL, or maybe, god forbid, Usairways?

 

[licorice]

Easy there tough guy. When mentioning APA any group needs to wory about a staple job. I wasn't trying to imply I wanted date of hire if we were so lucky enough to be merged with the mighty D. I don't need to fly a 76-ER like you to feel like a big time pilot. I'm perfectly happy collecting my paycheck in a 737.

I was not trying to be offensive, but rather, -sardonically humorous. (the DOH remarks were entirely TIC) I never implied that I was "big time" flying the ER and you were "small time" flying the 737. Your "big time pilot" remark, some would say, (but not me, neccessarily) -implies an insecurity on your part. (but, then again, my pointing this out to you might be construed as insecurity on my part)...who is more insecure? I don't know, but "we have an insecurity GAP, Mr. MD80GUY!!!" The actual substance of my post consisted of a status and category comparison of sorts, between AK and DL, which, upon further review, I will now have to revise, as I was mistaken on the previous post. There are now approx. 3000 DL "widebody" capts. (1900 DL, 1100 NW-this includes the 757, which is a significant % of the whole) - so your senior pilots would start to merge in at about the 3000 level (vs. 2000). So, you see what happens, MD80GUY, you p!ss me off and, "BOOM!!" -you lose 1000 numbers!!!! --But it's still 1500 better than what the General gave you on an earlier post!!!(4500)!!! - so actually I'm the best friend you have over here, MD80GUY, -don't mess with me anymore, though. Actually, all seriousness aside, the DAL pilots would neither want to, nor could they legally staple AK pilots in the event of a merger.

 

[LandGreen]

If Dal Buys Ak...

i would imagine it would be the same type of merger that happened with NW. ratio SLI with regards to type of equipment. actually, it is pretty easy to interpolate the result based on the current DAL/NW SLI results. however, that math problem is above my pay grade!!

i would think that DAL would want AK as a strategic move to protect feed for the Asia ops. AMR could cripple DAL's Asia ops by purchasing AK.

the other option is to grow north/south mainline ops on top of AK's routes which seems HIGHLY unlikely.

the codeshare is nice for now, but wouldn't allow me to sleep at night if i were DAL CEO. i would be really worried about AMR buying AK.

 

[~~~^~~~]

i would imagine it would be the same type of merger that happened with NW. ratio SLI with regards to type of equipment.

Best I can tell, there was NO regard for type of equipment, hence about 60% of the airline is out of position for their seniority on the combined list. I can look for the quotes if you need them, but Bloch broke new ground in using future attrition as a present day equity and effectively disregarded current day status quo.

However, Delta's rather large displacement bid is correcting a lot of this, prior to the Northwest pilots being able to use their 10 year seniority adjustment to shop the Delta positions.

If Alaska got the same integration methodology the NWA pilots got (Bloch liked to see different colors mixed throughout the list) expect quite a few 737 to Whale and 777 bids.

 

[clippyrip]

However, Delta's rather large displacement bid is correcting a lot of this, prior to the Northwest pilots being able to use their 10 year seniority adjustment to shop the Delta positions.

That sounds bitter...

What was the adjustment, about 150 pilots? I would hardly call that a 10 year seniority adjustment. We had more than that go in 08'. Not to mention we still got leapfrogged so there was no gain on our end.

 

[CesnaCaptn]

If Delta buys Alaska, would Alaska pilots get retro? Is their any precedence for a company being bought while in contract negotiations past the amendable date?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Clippy... it is what it is. 274 pull and plugs is effectively 548 pilots. Bloch was trying to look forward 10 years and awarded you the benefit of your attrition now. Of course by then Delta's attrition will be in its wave, but Delta guys will be below the FNWA.

If you were a young NWA pilot, you did VERY well. Older NWA pretty much got status quo, with the benefit of being able to shop better equipment and bases (for the most part).

If the economy didn't wipe out my plans B, C and D, I'd have resigned from DAL after the result. However, the economy being what it is, I'm grateful to lose 5 seats and my base to remain actively employed. Further, who knows if Delta would have actually executed their stand alone plan(s) in this economy (probably they'd have retrenched).

Going from a border line holder on the 767 to DC9 B does sting a little when you compare it to Delta's stand alone plans. Nothing I can do about it.

Not bitter & sure not trying to offend you or anyone else, but at the same time, I'm not going to lie and make happy talk. It is what it is.