Delta Contract 2012

[michael707767]

I would be all for taking back every aircraft above 50 seats, but it will never happen. Once you give away flying, it is gone. If someone can give me an example of anyone ever taking back scope I would love to hear it.

We could maybe limit or decrease the number of RJs, but the seat limit of 76 seats will not change. Too many obstacles to actually taking an aircraft category back to the mainline.

 

[Monster Buck]

HELL NO!!!! Start thinking about pay raises of about 30-40 percent with scope lock-down, same work rules for reserve pilots, 5:15 min for ALL duty days whether flying or not, first-class for all deadheads, crew meals on all flights greater than 3 hours, more vacation/year, better commuting policy, etc. The list goes on and on. We need to fix this abortion of a contract that CAL is trying to use against its pilots.

No shat! 15 percent? what the buck are you thinking?....How about contract 2000 plus 12 years of cola as an end result. So start negotiations at 150 percent of that so you have some give back room, anything less and we are chumps. You said it hockey!

 

[GogglesPisano]

I'm curious why you brand ALPA a "passive enabler" in the loss of your branded flying.

Here's why: In a perfect world, ALPA would establish ironclad scope for all major airlines (all jets, or any aircraft greater than 50 seats ...) just as they would establish minimum pay rates for all aircraft. But in a competetive landscape, as soon as one major pilot group caves on scope, the others feel a great deal of pressure to follow. It all falls on the lap of ALPA national for failing to act like a union.

As long as we're a "loose affiliation of locals," why not get even looser and go all the way to an independant union that looks out for its own pilots?

The fact that the Delta pilots were one of the first to cave on RJ's is something we'll have to live with.

 

[BoilerUP]

Here's why: In a perfect world, ALPA would establish ironclad scope for all major airlines (all jets, or any aircraft greater than 50 seats ...) just as they would establish minimum pay rates for all aircraft. But in a competetive landscape, as soon as one major pilot group caves on scope, the others feel a great deal of pressure to follow. It all falls on the lap of ALPA national for failing to act like a union.

So the pilot groups and their pilots that ratify such concessions bear no responsibility whatsoever?

 

[Hamfighter]

The fact that the Delta pilots were one of the first to cave on RJ's is something we'll have to live with.

That's true. Delta screwed us with the RJs the same way Southwest (initially) screwed us with pay rates.

 

[GogglesPisano]

So the pilot groups and their pilots that ratify such concessions bear no responsibility whatsoever?

Of course they do. But someone, somewhere has to lead the groups. ALPA's president signs every CBA.

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA's president signs every CBA.

Yes, but he's only looking to make sure your CBA follows ALPA Policy. He doesn't determine whether your contract is "good enough." That up to your own pilots to decide.

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

The next contract will be a cave job of epic proportions.

It will even overshadow the all-bark-no-bite cave job that Moak did after the BK filing.

 

[GogglesPisano]

He doesn't determine whether your contract is "good enough." That up to your own pilots to decide.

My point entirely. We need National for what, exactly?

 

[PCL_128]

My point entirely. We need National for what, exactly?

For a whole hell of a lot, actually. ALPA has tons of experienced staff that really makes the union what it is, and you can't afford to replace even a fraction of them on your own dues revenue. ALPA has 60 attorneys on staff, for instance, each with their own specialties in the law. There's no way to find substitutes for them on your own, especially since many of them are the best in their fields. Bruce York, the Director of Representation, is absolutely irreplaceable. No one else has as good a relationship with the NMB as he does, and if an airline the size of Delta ever hopes to have leverage in Section 6, you need him.

 

[afhercdriver]

It appears to me that ALPA has a conflict of interest between the regional carriers and the main line carriers. How can they allow better scope at the main line knowing it will cost jobs at the regionals? I think Delta pilots would do well with an independant union.

Jim

 

[PCL_128]

It appears to me that ALPA has a conflict of interest between the regional carriers and the main line carriers. How can they allow better scope at the main line knowing it will cost jobs at the regionals?

Because the Duty of Fair Representation (DFR) standard allows a "wide range of reasonableness" for labor unions in how they execute their responsibilities to protect their members' interests. If protecting jobs at the mainline carriers protects the best jobs, then that falls within the standard easily.

 

[samballs]

Moak will get big pay raises, just he will loosen scope for regionals to fly 767 and below. At least that is what his past performance indicates he will do in the future.

 

[CFIT]

ALPA has tons of experienced staff that really makes the union what it is, and you can't afford to replace even a fraction of them on your own dues revenue.

Remember; Tim is ALPA

 

[CFIT]

It appears to me that ALPA has a conflict of interest between the regional carriers and the main line carriers. How can they allow better scope at the main line knowing it will cost jobs at the regionals? I think Delta pilots would do well with an independant union.

Jim

A reality I hope to someday see, ALPA cannot represent both the Regionals and the Legacies. And the "strength in numbers argument" is baseless. Unfortunetly ALPA is a continuing failure with no fix, but there is no alternative.

It would actually benefit all airline pilots if there was a seperate union for the regionals and the legacies, but ALPA is too selfish.