Delta Contract 2012

[astroglider]

Start thinking about payrate increase by 15%, 5% raise annually over the life of the contract.
Strengthen Scope provisions. etc

It begins today...

Astro

 

[lowlycfi]

How about some serious SCOPE language?

 

[Cpt Oveur]

Take back every 76 seater from the regionals!

 

[hockeypilot44]

Start thinking about payrate increase by 15%, 5% raise annually over the life of the contract.
Strengthen Scope provisions. etc

It begins today...

Astro

HELL NO!!!! Start thinking about pay raises of about 30-40 percent with scope lock-down, same work rules for reserve pilots, 5:15 min for ALL duty days whether flying or not, first-class for all deadheads, crew meals on all flights greater than 3 hours, more vacation/year, better commuting policy, etc. The list goes on and on. We need to fix this abortion of a contract that CAL is trying to use against its pilots.

 

[tbkane]

Recapute ALL greater than 50 seat flying. We can work on pay later but we will never get back flying unless we recapture our flying. Work on Reserve rules to make them livable.

 

[lowlycfi]

Here's a "crazy" idea. If the airplane has Delta painted on the side of it, it will be flown by Delta pilots, no matter the number of seats.

 

[tbkane]

Anyone remember this quote "those airplanes we wouldn't want to fly those". We are going to have to fight like he!! in order to take back flying. I just hope our pilots are willing to fight for it (which they never have been before)...

 

[FBN0223]

Start thinking about getting a union that represents Delta pilots and Delta pilots only, then we can talk about pay raises and scope.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Start thinking about getting a union that represents Delta pilots and Delta pilots only, then we can talk about pay raises and scope.

There seems to be a growing sentiment in that direction.

 

[Tanker Clown]

Who are you guys kidding? You'll take a pay freeze at best. And you know deep down that if the company asks for concessions you'll fold like a cheap suit. ComAir and Sky West will probably fly all your domestic stuff by the end of the decade.

 

[JumpersAway]

There seems to be a growing sentiment in that direction.

Just curious, but what exactly do you guys feel ALPA is doing to protect the regionals and the flying associated with them. I can tell you for a FACT, that from my seat at ASA, I've seen nothing, nor do I want anything.

Frankly, I hope you guys recapture it- it's the only stability the "regional" industry will ever know...............

 

[Draginass]

Delta pilots need to take their union back from Moak and the concessionist MEC.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

It should be interesting and we will see if we have a contract by the amendable date. Seems to be a desire for that.

Jumpers, I agree. Locking down scope and improving the mainline will return the desire to work here. When that happens the natural flow will start again. A regional will be a stop over and no longer a career. As it should be.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Just curious, but what exactly do you guys feel ALPA is doing to protect the regionals and the flying associated with them.....

The trend over the last decade as been for regional airlines to receive a higher proportion of brand X flying with ever larger aircraft -- a trend initiated by various managements with ALPA as a passive enabler. That's indirect "protection."

The sentiment I'm talking about at DL is this: There is a lot of animosity amongst Delta pilots concerning the fact that we contributing more financially to Herndon than we receive in support, while National seems to bend over backwards to bring more regional -- sorry, "express" -- pilots into the fold. We are supporting our own replacements.

 

[BoilerUP]

The trend over the last decade as been for regional airlines to receive a higher proportion of brand X flying with ever larger aircraft -- a trend initiated by various managements with ALPA as a passive enabler. That's indirect "protection."

I'm curious why you brand ALPA a "passive enabler" in the loss of your branded flying.

Mainline pilots willingly sold small jet scope from the early 90s through the post-9/11 world, allowing increasingly more and larger "small jets" until BK rolled around and even more "large small jets" were permitted.

Of course in BK pilot groups had a legal gun to their head...but why blame ALPA when your contract, even the one negotiated in BK, had to be ratified by the pilot group? Could you not have sold something other than your scope?

Personally, I'd love it if DAL (and every other airline) could recapture scope back down to 51+ seats...but let's be realistic - that's not going to happen. And its not going to happen because even if management was willing to discuss it your pilots won't be willing to expend the required negotiating capital to get there.

I hope I'm wrong...:0

 

[michael707767]

I would be all for taking back every aircraft above 50 seats, but it will never happen. Once you give away flying, it is gone. If someone can give me an example of anyone ever taking back scope I would love to hear it.

We could maybe limit or decrease the number of RJs, but the seat limit of 76 seats will not change. Too many obstacles to actually taking an aircraft category back to the mainline.

 

[Monster Buck]

HELL NO!!!! Start thinking about pay raises of about 30-40 percent with scope lock-down, same work rules for reserve pilots, 5:15 min for ALL duty days whether flying or not, first-class for all deadheads, crew meals on all flights greater than 3 hours, more vacation/year, better commuting policy, etc. The list goes on and on. We need to fix this abortion of a contract that CAL is trying to use against its pilots.

No shat! 15 percent? what the buck are you thinking?....How about contract 2000 plus 12 years of cola as an end result. So start negotiations at 150 percent of that so you have some give back room, anything less and we are chumps. You said it hockey!

 

[GogglesPisano]

I'm curious why you brand ALPA a "passive enabler" in the loss of your branded flying.

Here's why: In a perfect world, ALPA would establish ironclad scope for all major airlines (all jets, or any aircraft greater than 50 seats ...) just as they would establish minimum pay rates for all aircraft. But in a competetive landscape, as soon as one major pilot group caves on scope, the others feel a great deal of pressure to follow. It all falls on the lap of ALPA national for failing to act like a union.

As long as we're a "loose affiliation of locals," why not get even looser and go all the way to an independant union that looks out for its own pilots?

The fact that the Delta pilots were one of the first to cave on RJ's is something we'll have to live with.

 

[BoilerUP]

Here's why: In a perfect world, ALPA would establish ironclad scope for all major airlines (all jets, or any aircraft greater than 50 seats ...) just as they would establish minimum pay rates for all aircraft. But in a competetive landscape, as soon as one major pilot group caves on scope, the others feel a great deal of pressure to follow. It all falls on the lap of ALPA national for failing to act like a union.

So the pilot groups and their pilots that ratify such concessions bear no responsibility whatsoever?

 

[Hamfighter]

The fact that the Delta pilots were one of the first to cave on RJ's is something we'll have to live with.

That's true. Delta screwed us with the RJs the same way Southwest (initially) screwed us with pay rates.

 

[GogglesPisano]

So the pilot groups and their pilots that ratify such concessions bear no responsibility whatsoever?

Of course they do. But someone, somewhere has to lead the groups. ALPA's president signs every CBA.

 

[PCL_128]

ALPA's president signs every CBA.

Yes, but he's only looking to make sure your CBA follows ALPA Policy. He doesn't determine whether your contract is "good enough." That up to your own pilots to decide.

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

The next contract will be a cave job of epic proportions.

It will even overshadow the all-bark-no-bite cave job that Moak did after the BK filing.

 

[GogglesPisano]

He doesn't determine whether your contract is "good enough." That up to your own pilots to decide.

My point entirely. We need National for what, exactly?

 

[PCL_128]

My point entirely. We need National for what, exactly?

For a whole hell of a lot, actually. ALPA has tons of experienced staff that really makes the union what it is, and you can't afford to replace even a fraction of them on your own dues revenue. ALPA has 60 attorneys on staff, for instance, each with their own specialties in the law. There's no way to find substitutes for them on your own, especially since many of them are the best in their fields. Bruce York, the Director of Representation, is absolutely irreplaceable. No one else has as good a relationship with the NMB as he does, and if an airline the size of Delta ever hopes to have leverage in Section 6, you need him.

 

[afhercdriver]

It appears to me that ALPA has a conflict of interest between the regional carriers and the main line carriers. How can they allow better scope at the main line knowing it will cost jobs at the regionals? I think Delta pilots would do well with an independant union.

Jim

 

[PCL_128]

It appears to me that ALPA has a conflict of interest between the regional carriers and the main line carriers. How can they allow better scope at the main line knowing it will cost jobs at the regionals?

Because the Duty of Fair Representation (DFR) standard allows a "wide range of reasonableness" for labor unions in how they execute their responsibilities to protect their members' interests. If protecting jobs at the mainline carriers protects the best jobs, then that falls within the standard easily.

 

[samballs]

Moak will get big pay raises, just he will loosen scope for regionals to fly 767 and below. At least that is what his past performance indicates he will do in the future.

 

[CFIT]

ALPA has tons of experienced staff that really makes the union what it is, and you can't afford to replace even a fraction of them on your own dues revenue.

Remember; Tim is ALPA

 

[CFIT]

It appears to me that ALPA has a conflict of interest between the regional carriers and the main line carriers. How can they allow better scope at the main line knowing it will cost jobs at the regionals? I think Delta pilots would do well with an independant union.

Jim

A reality I hope to someday see, ALPA cannot represent both the Regionals and the Legacies. And the "strength in numbers argument" is baseless. Unfortunetly ALPA is a continuing failure with no fix, but there is no alternative.

It would actually benefit all airline pilots if there was a seperate union for the regionals and the legacies, but ALPA is too selfish.