Delta asks employees to help pay for Fuel!

[FlyBoeingJets]

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What would you have done if you were in their position? I understand where you're coming from, but good intentions and being a team player didn't help the United folks when it came to their pension.
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Good question. Knowing the train is coming and being willing or able to stop it are two different things. Sure, UAL guys were screwed. But I don't think the DAL pilots deserved $1 million + lump sums at retirement either. There should be some sort of middle ground. I know some very junior Delta guys that hate it now that they are on the hook to fly ALL THE TIME under PBS. Some are finding other lines of work and will never come back. AA guys are also not happy.

Be careful what you FedEx and UPS folks ask for during negotiations. Long term, defined benefits regardless of profitability seem to be very dangerous things.

 

[Dizel8]

Well, at least some of the guys who took the lump sum are flying as "contractors", that should count for something! (Sarcasm)

As for those that took the money and ran ,personally, I cannot fault them! Corporations have very short memory when it comes to their employees, look at U and UAL. The employees kept giving, kept busting their behinds and yet, what did it get them?

 

[h25b]

For all of the "just raise ticket prices" fans...

How do you explain the fact that SWA can fly my wife and kids from RDU - BUF roundtrip for $298 (including taxes) and still make money. Wouldn't raising ticket prices at this point in the game just fuel more domestic growth at the LCC's ?

And don't think for one minute that the flying public should be willing to pay more just to keep Delta alive. You can't have it both ways, you are either for the free market economy or you aren't..

 

[Clipperskip]

Dear. Mr. FlyBoeingJets, I think the senior retiring DAL Captains have a moral responsibility to their families first and to their airline second. Those who decided to take a legal early retirement as a lump sum were justified in doing so. You are right, however, when you say that compromises, financial and otherwise, should be shared by all, but until the rules are changed that will not happen!

 

[Dizel8]

For all of the "just raise ticket prices" fans...

How do you explain the fact that SWA can fly my wife and kids from RDU - BUF roundtrip for $298 (including taxes) and still make money. Wouldn't raising ticket prices at this point in the game just fuel more domestic growth at the LCC's ?

$298 seems fair for that route, it is the $99 ticket that kills, when it is done by airlines losing buckets!

 

[michael707767]

Good question. Knowing the train is coming and being willing or able to stop it are two different things. Sure, UAL guys were screwed. But I don't think the DAL pilots deserved $1 million + lump sums at retirement either. There should be some sort of middle ground. I know some very junior Delta guys that hate it now that they are on the hook to fly ALL THE TIME under PBS.

why not? Our contract allows for these guys to retire. They earned it and they should get it. And frankly, its GOOD for us junior guys who remain. PBS is coming whether or not a ton of senior guys retire. Sure, life is going to suck, but it will suck a whole lot less now that we have all moved up 1500+ numbers. I also think enough guys have retired that we can avoid any refurloughing of pilots.

Oh and by the way, no one hates being on the hook to fly all the time under PBS. Hasn't happened yet. First real PBS bid will be in Oct for the Nov bid period. Has been ops normal up to now.

 

[michael707767]

How do you explain the fact that SWA can fly my wife and kids from RDU - BUF roundtrip for $298 (including taxes) and still make money. Wouldn't raising ticket prices at this point in the game just fuel more domestic growth at the LCC's ?

How do I explain it?? Fuel Hedges. Without them, even SW would be making very little if any money.

 

[Dizel8]

How do I explain it?? Fuel Hedges. Without them, even SW would be making very little if any money.

RDU-BUF is roughly 500NM, so figuring out the cost per seat to SWA is pretty easy. I think $130 each way should easily cover their cost, you agree?

(I subtracted taxes)

 

[h25b]

How do I explain it?? Fuel Hedges. Without them, even SW would be making very little if any money.

Everyone says that, and it is true... However, how is it the traveling public's fault that the "legacy" carriers are not in a financial situation to hedge ???

RDU-BUF is roughly 500NM, so figuring out the cost per seat to SWA is pretty easy. I think $130 each way should easily cover their cost, you agree?

(I subtracted taxes)

That was $298 for 2 roundtrip tickets... Including taxes..

 

[bafanguy]

But I don't think the DAL pilots deserved $1 million + lump sums at retirement either.

FBJ,

You don't appear to have a dog in this fight, but I'll try anyway to give you a point of view I doubt you'll understand. I can speak with a bit of authority on this issue being one of the evil 2500.

First, the lumps are not "deserved"...this ain't the freakin' Boy Scouts. This is part of life in the cold, cruel airline world. And as LEO said, "...a contract is a contract...". It was "negotiated", not deserved. We stand to lose the other 50% in the BK ( not guaranteed, but highly likely. Ask your USAir buddies ). Those who were in the last years of their careers didn't have enough years left to recover financially from whatever an inept management coupled with fate might hand them. At this point, the game is really being played for all the marbles. I suspect this is where you get lost in understanding as you don't appear to be in a position to live it, but you'll get your chance someday.

There are families to provide for and this can't be done with "warm & fuzzies"; Kroger won't give you a hunk of meat in exchange. There comes a point where you make decisions with the most important priorities in mind and perhaps regret that you couldn't act on behalf of some other priorities you also consider important.

This isn't the first time you have voiced your "opinion" on this. When you've stood where the evil 2500 have stood, looking at those realities, come back and speak on this issue again.




I know some very junior Delta guys that hate it now that they are on the hook to fly ALL THE TIME under PBS. .

QUOTE]

This is merely function of one's juniority and is part of airline life. PBS is also a negotiated function. It's better than the reserve of old when you were on the hook 24/7 of every day on call. There are a lot of guys on the list today who never knew anything but the sweet "windows" deal they had before PBS. Don't know what to tell 'em about that.

I'm not trying to be argumentative or disrespectful, but sometimes it's impossible to see life through anyone else's eyes; knowing this should at least lead you to question your point of view.

 

[Dizel8]

500 x 8 cents is $40. 4 segmets, two tickets each way=$160 total cost round trip to SWA. Not sure what the stage adjusted casm is, I used 8 cents. I think SWA overall is about 6 or 7 cents! However, even at a 10 cent CASM, it makes money.

 

[h25b]

500 x 8 cents is $40. 4 segmets, two tickets each way=$160 total cost round trip to SWA. Not sure what the stage adjusted casm is, I used 8 cents. I think SWA overall is about 6 or 7 cents! However, even at a 10 cent CASM, it make money.

I actually agree with you, that wasn't my question though. I understand that SWA is making money at it. My point is why can't the others and how in the world would it help Delta if they just raised fares thereby pricing themselves out of the market... ???

I'm just pointing out that the "just raise fares" arguement is misguided..

 

[bafanguy]

why not? Our contract allows for these guys to retire. They earned it and they should get it. And frankly, its GOOD for us junior guys who remain. PBS is coming whether or not a ton of senior guys retire. Sure, life is going to suck, but it will suck a whole lot less now that we have all moved up 1500+ numbers. I also think enough guys have retired that we can avoid any refurloughing of pilots.

Oh and by the way, no one hates being on the hook to fly all the time under PBS. Hasn't happened yet. First real PBS bid will be in Oct for the Nov bid period. Has been ops normal up to now.

michael707767,

Thanks you for saying this. You did a better job than I did and it'll mean more coming from a guy on the inside. This is a very difficult time for ALL concerned. I gave 30 years, 7 months to Widget Wonderland ( as did thousands of others ), and was there for every single bad thing that ever happened to the company short of the actual BK ( but I get in on that if I lose the monthly checks ).

I pretty much paid my dues there and took the lump without so much as a second thought. Let's see: "...so be it...", "...a contract is a contract...", or, "...do it once, do it right...". Take your pick as they all apply here.

 

[Dizel8]

I actually agree with you, that wasn't my question though. I understand that SWA is making money at it. My point is why can't the others and how in the world would it help Delta if they just raised fares thereby pricing themselves out of the market... ???

I'm just pointing out that the "just raise fares" arguement is misguided..

But conversely, does it make sense to lose on every ticket just to maintain marketshare? SWA cannot fly all customers every where, there is room for others.
If other airlines can get close, then compete, but competing while losing your shirt, why?

 

[h25b]

But conversely, does it make sense to lose on every ticket just to maintain marketshare? SWA cannot fly all customers every where, there is room for others.
If other airlines can get close, then compete, but competing while losing your shirt, why?

We obviously agree, just in different ways... If that makes sense.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

FBJ,

You don't appear to have a dog in this fight, but I'll try anyway to give you a point of view I doubt you'll understand. I can speak with a bit of authority on this issue being one of the evil 2500.

First, the lumps are not "deserved"...this ain't the freakin' Boy Scouts. This is part of life in the cold, cruel airline world. And as LEO said, "...a contract is a contract...". It was "negotiated", not deserved. We stand to lose the other 50% in the BK ( not guaranteed, but highly likely. Ask your USAir buddies ). Those who were in the last years of their careers didn't have enough years left to recover financially from whatever an inept management coupled with fate might hand them. At this point, the game is really being played for all the marbles. I suspect this is where you get lost in understanding as you don't appear to be in a position to live it, but you'll get your chance someday.

There are families to provide for and this can't be done with "warm & fuzzies"; Kroger won't give you a hunk of meat in exchange. There comes a point where you make decisions with the most important priorities in mind and perhaps regret that you couldn't act on behalf of some other priorities you also consider important.

This isn't the first time you have voiced your "opinion" on this. When you've stood where the evil 2500 have stood, looking at those realities, come back and speak on this issue again.

I'm not trying to be argumentative or disrespectful, but sometimes it's impossible to see life through anyone else's eyes; knowing this should at least lead you to question your point of view.

Thanks for the heads up that I don't have a dog in this fight. Your other sharp tongued comments don't help your point either. But maybe, as you say, I won't understand them.

This is an airline board with people discussing the issues. People are trying to figure out if they want to work for Delta or ASA or Comair. It is worth knowing that Delta is bleeding, and why, if you are considering a job at these companies or considering whether to accept recall or bypass.

I don't think you guys are evil. I do feel for you, even though you feel attacked and vilified by me and choose to lash out. I know I'm not in your shoes and may very well be doing what you are doing if I were you. I do not feel morally superior but I also don't feel inferior to your "incredible wisdom".


O.K. You guys aren't evil (I'm sure I went overboard with some comments about you guys, but not evil). What are the 2500+ retirees doing to help out the furloughed dudes or the entire membership now that they have managed to leave Delta with their retirements largely intact??

 

[michael707767]

Thanks you for saying this. You did a better job than I did and it'll mean more coming from a guy on the inside. This is a very difficult time for ALL concerned. .

Thanks for busting your hump for this company for 30+ years. You deserve every penny you get in retirement. I hope it works out well for all of us.

 

[-9Capt]

Raise ticket prices. Freaking idiots

like it's that simple.

 

[michael707767]

Everyone says that, and it is true... However, how is it the traveling public's fault that the "legacy" carriers are not in a financial situation to hedge ???.

I never said it was. Southwest is a strong company who has the money to buy hedges and has management smart enough to take advantage of them. That in no way is the traveling publics fault. The problems at the majors are bad management, plain and simple.

 

[bafanguy]

retirement

This is an airline board with people discussing the issues.

And that's exactly what's happening. Wanna keep it at the "discussion" level ?.......

I do feel for you, even though you feel attacked and vilified by me and choose to lash out. I know I'm not in your shoes and may I do not feel morally superior but I also don't feel inferior to your "incredible wisdom".

The last thing I feel is "...attacked and vilified.." and I'm not lashing out. You have expressed a highly-uninformed opinion...and now you've heard the facts from someone directly involved and faced with difficult decisions you have not had to make...yet. By the way, the last thing I'm capable of is "...incredible wisdom...", but what I can understand is having reality shoved down my throat by circumstances I can't control and having to take steps to fulfill the obligations I have to myself and family.


What are the 2500+ retirees doing to help out the furloughed dudes or the entire membership now that they have managed to leave Delta with their retirements largely intact??

Well, we left quite early in many cases, giving up the best darned flying job on this or any other planet ( just as good as yours ), and allowed the junior birdmen to move move up 2500 numbers with the attendant increases in income as they move to better paying seats. Maybe this will also speed the return of some furloughees.

What are we doing for the "...entire membership..." as far as retirement ? Nothing I can see. Sometimes life is just a bitch and not much can be done about it. I wish I could make that turn out differently for a lot of great people, but I can't.

The term "evil" was merely smartass sarcasm. We do that here at the Olde Pilot's Home when we're not knitting potholders out of used Depends...or counting our money

..........