Delta and the DC-9s

[BoilerUP]

I'll take old avionics and a big paycheck any day over something shiny that pays peanuts.

You must love the Excel (and that autopilot) then!

 

[pilotyip]

9's forever

According to what is published, the 195 beats the 9 in range by almost 600nm, so I don't know what NWA mgmnt was looking at???

What they are looking at is there is no carrying cost because it is paid for, you can park it and it doesn't cost you anything. Unlike an airplane where you have a payment of $150K/mo that you have to fly it 14 hours every day. Besides the 9 will do 900 miles any day; probably could covers 75% of the flying out of DTW. Our experience with the 9 is it has high dispatch reliability. BTW it was still fun to fly an airplane where cables connect you to the flight controls.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Tomcat:

The issue with the 175/190/ is that they have "range" but what DAL would use the jet on (300-700 sm), it is not efficient. The nine being paid for really is a tough nut to crack.

The have looked at the CS-100/300 and the 195/195X. Out of the ones that are official on the drawing board they actually lean more towards the 195. The Achilles heal of the 195 is its overall dispatch reliability rate. That kills an airplane more than anything.

They are still studying the CS models and the 195 195X but the preferred choice would be for the "Big Two" to clean sheet design a 110-150 seat jet. The 73X will be the 124-170 seat replacement. Pressure is being exerted, and it is evident by Embraer's talk of a clean sheet 195X. The manufactures know they need to up their game. Boeing and Airbus' issue is that they want to wait to design a narrow body jet when the technology of the 787 matriculates to a point where it meets the 25% efficiency percentile over current models. As they have both reported this is about 10 years away for design and 15 years away for production.
This leaves airlines like DAL that bought the last variants of the MD-80 series in the middle. The jets can run decent for another 8-10 years, but after that the gap in the production window makes operating the 80 series very expensive. The wait and see approach is being done for many reasons.
1) They really do not like what they see and do not want to commit billions to a fleet that will be obsolete in less than 15 years.

2) Waiting until 2015 to start the fleet renewal process means that they in effect need to replace the entire fleet. This will put a huge strain on our CAPEX and debt service. Because of this many fear that they will finally feel there is legitimate reason to make the pilots sell the 100~ seat flying as they need to get that liability off of their books to focus on the bigger jets.

With these two issues combined, it is going to get sporty in the next few years. We as pilots need to realize that it is coming and prepare accordingly. If the CS was just a little better, or the other manufacturers produced something a hair better this probably not be as big of an issue.

 

[OzBushWhacker]

I'll take old avionics and a big paycheck any day over something shiny that pays peanuts.

AMEN!

BTW it was still fun to fly an airplane where cables connect you to the flight controls.

AMEN AGAIN!!!! I'd give my left nut to fly a DC-9. Pity when hiring cranks up i'm probably only going to be able to get a job on a plastic fantastic.

BUT hopefully when the last E-170 is parked the crew ride home on a DC-9

 

[NuGuy]

Yup. With the -9, you don't even need a APU or huffer cart. Just roll it downhill and let the clutch out.

Nu

 

[Tomct]

DC-9....VW Bug of the skies....I like that.

Pop the clutch...that is funny NU.

I see what you are saying ACL, I guess only time will tell.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

If I recall you are flying an airbus aren't you Tomct?

 

[Tomct]

ACL, I could tell you, but then I would have to kill you. :laugh:

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I know the answer.

 

[aewanabe]

Then I guess Boeing is wrong??? http://www.boeing.com/commercial/dc-9/specs.html

Here are the E-195 specs. http://www.embraercommercialjets.com/#/en/products_detail/4

According to what is published, the 195 beats the 9 in range by almost 600nm, so I don't know what NWA mgmnt was looking at???

Redtail, when the 190's first came online at JB, they WERE a nightmare. But now that they have learned all of the fixes, I am told by a friend who flies them at Blue, that they are very reliable. But hey, if you want to continue doing a "T-Scan" and blowing black smoke...by all means, keep flying those dinosaurs. HAVE FUN! uke:

Ed, the more I think about it, I am sure that they will continue flying that thing until the wings fall off. I guess that is why NWA had the oldest fleet in the entire world, but at what point does burning a TON of gas/maintenance start cutting into a new "Fuel sipping" bird?

Just going by what is published.

You know, I fly the 190 and would much rather fly a -9. I like old airplanes, smoke, round dials and VORs. The 190 is a decent plane and is versatile in the missions, but despite tons of improvement we still struggle with dispatch reliability 5 years into the program.

 

[andyd]

This has nothing to do with the current debate but I talked with BB the other day and he says all furlough bypass guys back off the street this fall and Mesaba and CPS guys in class by January, just a trickle at first and no off the street guys for "a while". Also GUM plans are ready to go and he expects them to pull the trigger on it this summer.

 

[Ed Harley]

This has nothing to do with the current debate but I talked with BB the other day and he says all furlough bypass guys back off the street this fall and Mesaba and CPS guys in class by January, just a trickle at first and no off the street guys for "a while". Also GUM plans are ready to go and he expects them to pull the trigger on it this summer.

Latest rumor floating around the MSP training center is that we're planning to hire 300 pilots in the next 12 months.

 

[andyd]

Well the guy I talked to is the new hire coordinator and he's pretty straight forward, the 300 sounds about right if you look at the number of guys on furlough bypass and then take the rest from Mesaba and Compass....that would be allowed to flow in the next 12 months and the total adds up to around 300 or so.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Andy;
That is what they are shooting for, but I also expect that to change one the ball gets rolling.

 

[nwaredtail]

So between deliveries and parking planes, we will be -20 or so, yet people think there will be hiring, interesting.

 

[Superpilot92]

So between deliveries and parking planes, we will be -20 or so, yet people think there will be hiring, interesting.

You're not taking into consideration the increased utilization of the aircraft that will be staying. New Routes that are coming, bases, etc

Also by the end of this year we'll be 3 years into the age 65 rule change thus its expected that we'll be seeing more and more retirements as we move forward. Plus the staffing for the Guam and md-90's havent be accounted for either.

Actually there's alot that hasnt been accounted for yet :beer:

 

[LXApilot]

Who is this guy yapping about the -190 all the time?

I think that this profession needs more airplanes that are old, loud, put out a lot of thick black smoke, rattle all the windows and set off car alarms for miles around, have steam gauges and pilots that say "unable" when they get cleared direct somewhere.

The real difference is... you could put a steam gauge pilot in an RJ and they will figure out how to fly it. Put an RJ glass cockpit guy in an old dial-a-saurus and they couldn't fly their way out of a paper-bag with all of those switches and dials everywhere. One takes a pilot.. the other takes a video game dork.

Just my .02

 

[twobits]

Look. The entire -9 fleet will be retired by the end of next year. When have you ever listened to what mgt said and believed them! Next year they will come up with a great cost savings plan. Kill CVG, replace the -9's with MD-88's from CVG, etc.... and someone will get a huge bonus for previously unforseen cost benefits! don't fool yourself about hiring.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

CVG has 29 flights a day. The CVG utilization of those a/c is just not enough to cover the 9 flying.

Problem is that unless we allow more RJ's the network becomes very inefficient by cutting it much lower.

 

[wings421]

So is the flow through set up so that they can just flow people or will it have to be in conjunction with hiring off the street (if we need new guys)?

 

[twobits]

some people on here really are drinking the koolaid. Delta is not hiring and won't be anytime soon. Don't let your buddies tell you otherwise! Doesn't mean you shouldn't be prepared in 2 years when they do start hiring, but now it is a NON ISSUE. They are getting rid of more airplanes then they are receiving; and will also be needing less crews in the future. CVG is toast late next year, besides flights to hubs.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

They can flow without interviewing off the street. It is cheaper for them to flow than hire off the street as they do not need to set up a hiring dept.

 

[DrewBlows]

Who is this guy yapping about the -190 all the time?

I think that this profession needs more airplanes that are old, loud, put out a lot of thick black smoke, rattle all the windows and set off car alarms for miles around, have steam gauges and pilots that say "unable" when they get cleared direct somewhere.

The real difference is... you could put a steam gauge pilot in an RJ and they will figure out how to fly it. Put an RJ glass cockpit guy in an old dial-a-saurus and they couldn't fly their way out of a paper-bag with all of those switches and dials everywhere. One takes a pilot.. the other takes a video game dork.

Just my .02

This is not true. I don't know what the "video game dork" record is, but the "dial-a-saurus" transition to glass is not good. Every company I've ever flown for has washed out guys transitioning from round dials to glass at a higher rate than glass-to-glass or flight instructor-to-glass. That said, I suspect this has more to do with the correlation between age and the learning process than any equipment transition.

 

[nwaredtail]

You're not taking into consideration the increased utilization of the aircraft that will be staying. :

Ah yes, the "increased utilization" motto stated by management to make pilots feel better about parking airplanes.

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

They can flow without interviewing off the street. It is cheaper for them to flow than hire off the street as they do not need to set up a hiring dept.

Hiring off the street= 1 training event
Flow= 3 training events

 

[motch]

IamGumby...

Care to explain how you came up with your numbers?

What would be the training events if a Compass or Comair pilot just applied to Mighty Delta like the rest of the common folk and got hired?

Couldn't Delta management also go-
Lets hire every one of ExpressJet's Captains. That will cause them to come to a screeching halt and hurt our competition.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Simple Motch

1 training event for a new hire at DAL

1 Event for the CA leaving Compass or Mesaba

1 Event for a new hire first officer at Compass or Mesaba.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Also, that works but is also lowers the overall cost of the competition by getting rid of their higher paid pilots. Cheaper to pay for training events and keep resetting your WO longevity. It is ALL about money.

 

[pilotyip]

well said

It is ALL about money.

of course it is all about money, our own best self interest drives every economic decision anyone makes. Pilots, management, housewives at the super market. It is how the world works, Adam Smith figured it out in 1780, Wealth of Nations a great read.

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

Thank you ACL.