Delta and NWA Starting Positions From First Meeting...

[Dumb Pilot]

That company will become such a happy place to work for, won't it?

 

[Heavy Set]

I would put the 330 and 777 on the same level. I do put the 330 above the 767 though. My opinion does not matter. I do have to question why the NWA MEC would take the US Airways' approach after it was proven unsuccessful. Hopefully the arbitrators are smart enough to not screw the NWA pilots as bad as the US Airways' pilot, or this company will be screwed.

What are most Asian airlines replacing their 747s with? 777s. An A330-300 is about the same size as a 767-400, and it looks like the DL guys say they will pay the same. The 767-300ER is about the same size as an A330-200, and Delta has I think twice as many 757s as NWA. Is that right? Maybe three times as many?

 

[captain caveman]

I would put the 330 and 777 on the same level. I do put the 330 above the 767 though. My opinion does not matter. I do have to question why the NWA MEC would take the US Airways' approach after it was proven unsuccessful. Hopefully the arbitrators are smart enough to not screw the NWA pilots as bad as the US Airways' pilot, or this company will be screwed.

330-300 and 767-400 are similar in weight and capacity

 

[clippyrip]

330-300 and 767-400 are similar in weight and capacity

You guys keep telling yourselves that and maybe an arbitrator will hear.

 

[tomgoodman]

An old tradition

Both sides are going for opposites and it will likely meet in the middle.

That's the way it's always been. Every time our contract became amendable, both sides would "open" with an absurd "wish list" which provoked alarm among new guys and laughter among veterans. Someone would invariably ask: "Why don't we open closer to the middle, since that's where we always end up?" The answer was: "Because that would change the location of the 'middle'."

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Tom,

As always you are a voice of reason. Bet you were a great guy to fly with. Hope you are enjoying your retirement.






quote=tomgoodman;1684737]That's the way it's always been. Every time our contract became amendable, both sides would "open" with an absurd "wish list" which provoked alarm among new guys and laughter among veterans. Someone would invariably ask: "Why don't we open closer to the middle, since that's where we always end up?" The answer was: "Because that would change the location of the 'middle'." [/quote]

 

[RedRum]

Attention all DAL and NWA pilots,

CALM DOWN!

We just completed the first day of SLI hearings and everyone is already throwing stones. General, I thought you had been starting to show your kinder, gentler side as of late.

We still have another month to go in this process. This is totally out of our hands and lobbing grenades at one another on this board is going to do nothing to help your cause. Why not sit back, have a beer and watch the show.

I am seeing a lot of haters from the Delta side already. I don't think anyone is saying that the 330 is "better" than the 777 or even the 767-ER for that matter. It's all symantics and part of the negotiations.

On another note, I am seeing that DOH is unreasonable for the NWA pilots as a starting poisition. As a NWA pilot, I am honestly surprised they didn't start with dynamic seniority with DOH from the start. Date of hire doesn't do much for 3/4 of our group since our list is very senior.

Anyway, I am starting to get dragged into the debates and that is not what I intend to do. Support your reps and try to keep the name-calling to a minimum. This could be a great place to work and we could actually show other groups how to pull off a merger if everyone stops throwing mud from day one.

JMHO. Safe skies

Redrum

 

[Noserider76]

Attention all DAL and NWA pilots,

This could be a great place to work and we could actually show other groups how to pull off a merger if everyone stops throwing mud from day one.

JMHO. Safe skies

Redrum

I'm trying not to get dragged into this bs either but.... Most here see our guys as having bent over backward to try to keep things relatively in the middle and bring both sides equal benefit even when they were beating their heads against a wall. For better or worse we've seen your MEC as the group with their hand out, doing nothing for the rest of us. In short we haven't noticed any effort at all on your MEC part to make this a good place to work post-merger. I thought the NW guys had a chance to at least show they are reasonable and wanted to start this thing off on a good foot. Unfortunately, although I know it's negotiating, super premium wide body, the US Air arguement, and the rest didn't go over well at all. The comments weren't pretty on the line here today. I hope we can get past it.

 

[Superpilot92]

I'm trying not to get dragged into this bs either but.... Most here see our guys as having bent over backward to try to keep things relatively in the middle and bring both sides equal benefit even when they were beating their heads against a wall. For better or worse we've seen your MEC as the group with their hand out, doing nothing for the rest of us. In short we haven't noticed any effort at all on your MEC part to make this a good place to work post-merger. I thought the NW guys had a chance to at least show they are reasonable and wanted to start this thing off on a good foot. Unfortunately, although I know it's negotiating, super premium wide body, the US Air arguement, and the rest didn't go over well at all. The comments weren't pretty on the line here today. I hope we can get past it.

DAL came out with what was best for the DAL side and NWA came out with something they felt was best for the NWA side. Its just negotiations. Reasonable is in the eye of the beholder and just because you see the DAL offer as reasonable doesnt mean it is. I dont blame our MEC anymore than i blame DAL mec for their strategic plans. In the end it will likely be in the middle so we can equally biche about it.

Both sides went for the Gold in hopes of getting at least the silver. time will tell. Cheers till then. :beer:

 

[Noserider76]

Both sides went for the Gold in hopes of getting at least the silver. time will tell. Cheers till then. :beer:

Maybe, or maybe they are going for the gold. Anyway, cheers.

 

[Helos2Galaxy]

The NW comparison also fails to mention the 777 on order however didn't forget the 787s on order. Also, the 21 767-400s were left out of the NW comparison of aircraft. Lets see if they would fit into the mix:

..I am sure you will get credit for those 787s on order, but in reality, expect those 787s to be converted to 777s. Delta doesn't want the 787 until it is a long range airplane. The first bunch -100s (?) are not an international airplane. Delta wants the LRs which are 5-7 years away.

 

[PuffDriver]

DAL came out with what was best for the DAL side and NWA came out with something they felt was best for the NWA side. Its just negotiations. Reasonable is in the eye of the beholder and just because you see the DAL offer as reasonable doesnt mean it is. I dont blame our MEC anymore than i blame DAL mec for their strategic plans. In the end it will likely be in the middle so we can equally biche about it.

Both sides went for the Gold in hopes of getting at least the silver. time will tell. Cheers till then. :beer:

You are wrong, Delta is going for what they can defend as fair. NWA has, is, and always will adopt the outdated principle of shooting for the moon and hoping for the middle, aka USAirways.

 

[Superpilot92]

You are wrong, Delta is going for what they can defend as fair. NWA has, is, and always will adopt the outdated principle of shooting for the moon and hoping for the middle, aka USAirways.

Of course i am, I forgot everyone is wrong except for you!

 

[FBN0223]

On another note, I am seeing that DOH is unreasonable for the NWA pilots as a starting poisition. As a NWA pilot, I am honestly surprised they didn't start with dynamic seniority with DOH from the start. Date of hire doesn't do much for 3/4 of our group since our list is very senior.


Redrum

I agree. DOH with a dynamic list would have been a good opener for NWA. Starting at DOH, which is middle ground while Delta is talking ridiculous ratios, doesn't seem like a sound strategy.

Of course, considering that the arbitrators are experienced, intelligent and are easily able to spot unreasonable opening positions, it probably would be best for both pilots groups to have at least the NWA pilots taking a fair, intelligent and reasonable opening stance on this very important issue of seniority integration.

 

[Helos2Galaxy]

My guess, bottom 500 will be NWA (Compass ranked below DAL 88s), top 100 NWA (for 747-4s, above our 777s)

 

[PuffDriver]

Of course i am, I forgot everyone is wrong except for you!

Wrong again. I am wrong a lot. Just not in this case. My MEC can defend their position nicely, and show how it benefits NWA pilots as well as Delta pilots. You guys yourself said that your MEC is shooting for the moon and hoping for the middle. You cannot defend DOH, and you sure as hell cannot defend DOH with dynamic seniority. Yesterday's transcripts are now available, and our side did an excellent job of pulling the facts of where exactly both companies are going.

I hope the NWA MEC does not pull another, we want this, oh wait, we don't want that. This time is for real.

 

[Fly4hire]

You are wrong, Delta is going for what they can defend as fair. NWA has, is, and always will adopt the outdated principle of shooting for the moon and hoping for the middle, aka USAirways.

Puff,

Seriously, save it for the arbitrators. They'll listen to anything, that doesn't mean they'll agree with it. It is out of our hands now. Debating here is pointless.

 

[Sedona16]

Historically the Northwest pilot leadership has been unreasonable and hotheaded in the way they approach matters. I have a couple relatives who fly there who would agree with my assessment. In the end it probably will hurt them more than help them in these arbitration hearings.

 

[PuffDriver]

Puff,

Seriously, save it for the arbitrators. They'll listen to anything, that doesn't mean they'll agree with it. It is out of our hands now. Debating here is pointless.

Just a little play-by-play from my perspective. The Delta pilots are staying on track despite all kinds of wacko stuff from an unorganized, ill-prepared NWA MEC. The opening briefs say it all. It'll all be over in six weeks anyway. What else is there to talk about?

 

[hoover]

I don't understand why this so complicated. Both are unionized under ALPA, and ALPA had a policy of DOH right? What's the problem here? Seems to me that you just order everyone by their date of hire, and everyone maintains their current seat positions until they decide to bid something else. If you were an ATL 757 FO before, you're an ATL 757 FO after. That way no one loses anything, and everyone's seniority is respected.