Delta and Northwest revive merger talks

[PuffDriver]

What happened to the "WE LIKE OUR STAND-ALONE. WE CAN MAKE IT ON OUR OWN" rant all you DAL guys believe in. All you guys say here, in this order, is how stupid we(NWA) are for not taking the first offer in the first place. Then you say that NWA sucks and that all we bring to table are old planes, cold bases and senior pilots that are salivating to slide into your seats. That you are glad to not have to merge with such a dysfunctional airline. That a merge with NWA is the worst thing that could happen to the DAL pilots. "That was then, this is now, move on." And last, a merger will be good for all. Which one is it?

But now it seems that DAL ALPA is going to give up scope and hand the NWA pilots on a silver platter to the management sharks for some trinkets. To put it lightly, if this is the way it goes down, DAL ALPA will be sinking to the lowest possible form of greed and selfishness.

DON"T YOU GUYS SEE THIS AS WRONG!!!

Make no mistake about it, NWA is not the angel in this transaction. Their MEC supported this merger from the start and immediately went after our seniority list, and have maintained that position since the start. They are not the angels you make them out to be.

They are a fine group of aviators, who have weak leadership. The Delta leadership tried to work with them, while opposing the merger.

Then things changed. The powers-that-be have decided to go above RA head and consummate this merger. They have decided to reward the team that has been willing to show flexibility in the face of a deal to ensure long term survivability. If NWA decides to show a bit of cooperation, I've no doubt they will be welcomed to the fold with open arms, as that is the way that the power-that-be want it. However, if stubborn prevails, I would imagine that Delta will respond in kind. The cards have been dealt, and NWA leadership will have to decide to lead, or hang.

Yes it is wrong, and it stems from a lack of national leadership. But it is what it is. We are where we are. Airlines are at stake, and will be failing in short order.

 

[123]

Make no mistake about it, NWA is not the angel in this transaction. Their MEC supported this merger from the start and immediately went after our seniority list, and have maintained that position since the start. They are not the angels you make them out to be.
.

Puff,

Has the DALPA leadership put out communications regarding exactly what the DALPA and NWAALPA SLI proposals were/are? We, at NWA, have not received ANY facts about the different positions (only generalizations).

I am trying to understand, and sift through all of the information that is public knowledge, so that I can come to an informed decision on whether I should be really upset, upset, indifferent, happy, really happy.

Thanks,

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

It's pretty obvious that the DAL guys have some fairly sharp spin-meisters. They probably even have some internet geek in the back room at "1 DALPA Place" coordinating the viral marketing campain, since we have the same tools spamming identical talking points on any message board with airline or aviation in the name.

You can always tell, because they:

1) Get hung up on buzzwords like "Transaction Framework Agreement", and spam the hell of it.

2) Posts include MILES of text. The ONLY reason for that much writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure clairty and to cover poor reasoning.

But, really, you guys need to get your story straight. Let's cover the past DAL positions:

1) NWA/DAL might be ok
2) DALPA can STOP any merger!
3) NWA/DAL is dead & buried
4) Management is our friend
5) NWA/DAL is happening whether we want it or not

Really, you guys have all the conviction of a Jesus wheezing preacher that cheats on his wife.

Don't forget, Prater has to sign off on any new DAL contract, and he won't do it if it violates ALPA merger policy. You might want to read it.

Nu

 

[nwaredtail]

Don't forget all the genious' that talk about the raises, equity, aircraft orders, yet none can give any details. I'll give you one guess as to why.....

Puff still has a scab mentality.

I forwarded his posts to my DAL buddies and they laughed and told me to tell all my NWA friends that his is not the overall attitude. They want this to work out for the best of all of us also in these times.

 

[PuffDriver]

Puff,

Has the DALPA leadership put out communications regarding exactly what the DALPA and NWAALPA SLI proposals were/are? We, at NWA, have not received ANY facts about the different positions (only generalizations).

I am trying to understand, and sift through all of the information that is public knowledge, so that I can come to an informed decision on whether I should be really upset, upset, indifferent, happy, really happy.

Thanks,

Officially? No. However, the reps have been in the lounges speaking informally. They don't want to print it, because they don't want the liability until the I's are dotted and the t's crossed. I believe our chairman's letter was posted around here some time ago, again without specific proposals. Everything I have been posting with regard to the SLI has been from people who know. I know that it is frustrating, and I am frustrated as well that we don't know more. I would expect things to move pretty rapidly starting next week. Things may start coming out today with regard to our MECs meeting and possibly tomorrow. I wish I could be more specific. Suffice to say that all trump cards are likely to be played by both MECs. There is even rumblings of Air Midwest coming into this deal--which are interesting and throw yet another dynamic into it.

Contrary to what you might read, I am in favor of the merger, and I am in favor of a fair seniority list. That must protect the senior and junior at both airlines--which will also cause pain at both airlines but create a stronger airline going forward--into the airline globalization world

 

[PuffDriver]

Don't forget all the genious' that talk about the raises, equity, aircraft orders, yet none can give any details. I'll give you one guess as to why.....

Puff still has a scab mentality.

I forwarded his posts to my DAL buddies and they laughed and told me to tell all my NWA friends that his is not the overall attitude. They want this to work out for the best of all of us also in these times.

That is a good try. It is very brave to call someone a scab behind the safety of anonymity. It is another to call it to their face. I invite you to try calling someone a scab in the manner it should be done, to their face.

I have said several times that I want this to work out as amicably as possible. It would appear more and more, however, that the NWA leadership has it in their head that compromise is not in their vocabulary. Fair enough. All my posts have been about what is being put into place in the event that such a mentality continues. The merger is inevitable. The word's "we will kill any deal...." have been appeased--at least in the view of the leadership. Today or tomorrow, we will find out if the MEC agrees. Then we will find out if the membership agrees. Then you will have some decisions to make. Details will be forthcoming, but feel free to keep denying them. But remember, there are consequences to all actions.

Again, the Delta MEC has publicly said that they are not interested in a deal unless it benefits the Delta pilots. Apparently, that threshold has been met. If it wasn't, the deal would be done. The phrase, "the deal is coming no matter what", is for the benefit of the NWA pilots. Both sides must kill the deal. If you do not have the support of both sides to kill the deal, one side cannot do it alone. That threshold has been met as well. Delta is ready to support the deal--at least from the standpoint of the MEC chair. We will find out very soon if the entire MEC feels that way. More to follow, and I hope that clarifies things for you.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

We are cooperating because we (MEC and Co.) believe that this is in our best interests. Long term thinking makes this a no brainier.
The Deal that they were referring to being "dead" was with the NWA MEC. Look at the posts. It was not about the merger.
We want to pave the path for this, and not with anyones careers, but with team work. Get your MEC to wake up and stop trying to reclaim the past. If they cannot, then recall them and get people in their that understand what this market and open-skies really means.

 

[General Lee]

Officially? No. However, the reps have been in the lounges speaking informally. They don't want to print it, because they don't want the liability until the I's are dotted and the t's crossed. I believe our chairman's letter was posted around here some time ago, again without specific proposals. Everything I have been posting with regard to the SLI has been from people who know. I know that it is frustrating, and I am frustrated as well that we don't know more. I would expect things to move pretty rapidly starting next week. Things may start coming out today with regard to our MECs meeting and possibly tomorrow. I wish I could be more specific. Suffice to say that all trump cards are likely to be played by both MECs. There is even rumblings of Air Midwest coming into this deal--which are interesting and throw yet another dynamic into it.

Contrary to what you might read, I am in favor of the merger, and I am in favor of a fair seniority list. That must protect the senior and junior at both airlines--which will also cause pain at both airlines but create a stronger airline going forward--into the airline globalization world

I think you mean Midwest Airlines, not Air Midwest. Air Midwest is a part of Mesa flying Beech 1900s. That might be fun for awhile, but if we do get those 1900s, the DC9 guys will have to fly it. I need an FMS and an autothrottle.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PuffDriver]

I think you mean Midwest Airlines, not Air Midwest. Air Midwest is a part of Mesa flying Beech 1900s. That might be fun for awhile, but if we do get those 1900s, the DC9 guys will have to fly it. I need an FMS and an autothrottle.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

Good point

 

[PuffDriver]

Heyas,

It's pretty obvious that the DAL guys have some fairly sharp spin-meisters. They probably even have some internet geek in the back room at "1 DALPA Place" coordinating the viral marketing campain, since we have the same tools spamming identical talking points on any message board with airline or aviation in the name.

You can always tell, because they:

1) Get hung up on buzzwords like "Transaction Framework Agreement", and spam the hell of it.

2) Posts include MILES of text. The ONLY reason for that much writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure clairty and to cover poor reasoning.

But, really, you guys need to get your story straight. Let's cover the past DAL positions:

1) NWA/DAL might be ok
2) DALPA can STOP any merger!
3) NWA/DAL is dead & buried
4) Management is our friend
5) NWA/DAL is happening whether we want it or not

Really, you guys have all the conviction of a Jesus wheezing preacher that cheats on his wife.

Don't forget, Prater has to sign off on any new DAL contract, and he won't do it if it violates ALPA merger policy. You might want to read it.

Nu

Its funny that you call us the spinmeisters. Prater will sign off on a contract because it will allow both entities to be operated separately. There will BE no violation of ALPA merger policy because it will NOT be invoked. Keep grasping, eventually the reality will become clear.

Remember, the Delta leadership did not ask for this. It is a direct result of NWA leadership overextending their perceived leverage to get the Delta pilots to succumb to their version of a fair list or to arbitration--which is all they know how to do based on their history.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Sad, ain't it?

.....more like reality.....

 

[PCL_128]

.....more like reality.....

That doesn't make the reality any less sad.

 

[JoeMerchant]

That doesn't make the reality any less sad.

...then you ALPA cheerleaders better quit defending the very system that created this mess....

....this is better than watching Hillary and Obama club each other......

 

[LandGreen]

anymore rumblings about Steenland wanting OUT so bad he might be willing to break up NW into parts? is he thinking that NW might not be attractive as a whole package anymore? that would be one way around this merger mess! this is getting scary...

 

[PCL_128]

...then you ALPA cheerleaders better quit defending the very system that created this mess....

The "system" didn't create any mess, Joe. The people operating within the system are creating the mess, as usual.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The "system" didn't create any mess, Joe. The people operating within the system are creating the mess, as usual.

The independent MEC concept without transportability of seniority created this mess....just watch....it will get worse......

There is no adult supervision in this so-called "union"......Now it is just a big food fight with a magazine......

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Actually Joe, I think for once one of these fricken MEC's is using some of the power that they have.
Kind of nice for a change.

If it actually comes to this I will be floored. Negotiation 101. There are many paths to the same result. Notice how quiet the NWA MEC has been. Don't you think that there involved or at least being consulted on some level?

 

[727RedTails]

I think you mean Midwest Airlines, not Air Midwest. Air Midwest is a part of Mesa flying Beech 1900s. That might be fun for awhile, but if we do get those 1900s, the DC9 guys will have to fly it. I need an FMS and an autothrottle.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

Wow,
You really are sooo funny. What a f*cking princess you are. I can't fly anything without autothrottles and FMS. F*ucking hilarious.

 

[123]

anymore rumblings about Steenland wanting OUT so bad he might be willing to break up NW into parts? is he thinking that NW might not be attractive as a whole package anymore? that would be one way around this merger mess! this is getting scary...

Nah, if Steenland wants out so bad, he can just leave in June and still collect is $8.2 million.

 

[General Lee]

I think you mean Midwest Airlines, not Air Midwest. Air Midwest is a part of Mesa flying Beech 1900s. That might be fun for awhile, but if we do get those 1900s, the DC9 guys will have to fly it. I need an FMS and an autothrottle.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

Wow,
You really are sooo funny. What a f*cking princess you are. I can't fly anything without autothrottles and FMS. F*ucking hilarious.

You probably won't be flying many DC9s soon anyway.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PCL_128]

The independent MEC concept without transportability of seniority created this mess....just watch....it will get worse......

The independent MEC concept was created for exactly the reason I specified: the people operating within the system demanded it. Pilots are control freaks. They refuse to cede any power to a larger organization. As always, the problem isn't the Association, the problem is the individual egos that refuse to operate in a way that is beneficial to the whole. You are indicative of this problem.

 

[ChoadSnazz]

You probably won't be flying many DC9s soon anyway.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Genital Leak,

You are a total assh*le. I look forward to you being my gear bitch.

 

[727RedTails]

You probably won't be flying many DC9s soon anyway.


Bye Bye--General Lee

What a response from a scab wannabee. I sure am glad my friends at Delta want nothing to do with you, that comment shows your true colors doesn't it Princess Leah.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

The power make up of ALPA is kind of like the Federal Government.
There is a reason for that.

 

[Tref]

Prater will sign off on a contract because it will allow both entities to be operated separately. There will BE no violation of ALPA merger policy because it will NOT be invoked.

Actually NWA pilots have a contract that has a Scope section as well. It says that any acquisition/merger requires a merged seniority list and that ALPA merger policy will be used if the other airline is ALPA as well. ALPA merger policy has a clearly defined 150 day timetable for arbitration if a negotiated list is not possible, so we may see arbitration eventually anyway.

 

[Tref]

Genital Leak,

You are a total assh*le. I look forward to you being my gear bitch.

Dude, I just put GL on my ignore list and I highly recommend it.

 

[Tref]

Our chair and MEC already have a great relationship with RA. I have been here a long time, and I have been through more than a couple CEOs. This CEO and board have been the single most impressive in my tenure. They have finally showed some vision instead of reacting to what's thrown at them.

Puff,
Don't let them fool you. Richard Anderson is not your friend. He and Doug Steenland were Lorenzo proteges before working together at NWA.

Richard might have more of a twinkle in his smile, especially since the braces came off, and I'd much rather have him as a CEO than Dougie, but he's not your buddy like so many at Delta seem to feel.

There is no doubt in my mind that what is playing out right now has been planned for years. There will be plenty of good cop/bad cop but the reality is that they are not in favor of one pilot group over the other. They want us all to work as hard as possible for as little as possible and will whipsaw us as much as we let them to get that.

It seems like many at DAL (or at least here on FI) are like the Star Belly Sneetches, but you think that Sylvester McMonkey McBean is your friend. Remember he packs up and leaves after he takes ALL of the Sneetches money, stars or not.

 

[General Lee]

Genital Leak,

You are a total assh*le. I look forward to you being my gear bitch.

Choady loves Chatchi,

VERY VERY unlikely. I will be a Captain sooner than you think........


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

You probably won't be flying many DC9s soon anyway.


Bye Bye--General Lee

What a response from a scab wannabee. I sure am glad my friends at Delta want nothing to do with you, that comment shows your true colors doesn't it Princess Leah.

Scab wannabee? Come on now. I never put a timeframe on when all of the -9s would be parked, but eventually they all will. And people at Delta want nothing to do with me? I don't care. I don't speak for all Delta people. If you think I do, then you are wrong. This is an anonymous opinion board. Get over yourself. Suddenly when things don't seem like they are going your way you get offended.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

"It seems like many at DAL (or at least here on FI) are like the Star Belly Sneetches, but you think that Sylvester McMonkey McBean is your friend. Remember he packs up and leaves after he takes ALL of the Sneetches money, stars or not. "----Tref


What language is this Tref guy speaking? Is he on dope?


Bye Bye--General Lee