Delta and Northwest revive merger talks

[FDJ2]

Agree 100%! Arbitration is for losers. I've worked for 20 years with the Red/Green Show: Idiots hating Morons (and vice versa). Because of that I've always been a strong advocate of a negotiated SLI....

On this among many other issues we agree Occam. Let's hope for a better future for all.

No one here wants a Red book, Green book or any other colored book going forward. We want a unified group.

However, if we can't play well together in the sand box then we are forced to look out for our own interests and get the best deal we can get. Just like you guys tried in NYC.

We can work together or we can play hardball with the best of them. It's best to work together, of course that requires sending committees willing to work towards a negotiated agreement, not abdicating their responsibilities to a third party.

Here's to better days. It's late and I have an important meeting in the am.

 

[Schwanker]

.... call me a scab or a scumbag, hack your watch, and figure out when you wake up how long you were out....

Oooohhhhh, a tough guy! They're always fun on an anonymous forum! PuffDriver, you're a mud-pipe!

Schwanker

 

[waveflyer]

yeah it's sad

We don't need to be fighting each other- we need a national seniority list. Have one big mother of all negotiations and enjoy the results. How many mergers need to get f&&ked up before we get out of our own way?

 

[PCL_128]

It amazes me that you can still be pushing this NSL nonsense when these two groups can't even agree on an integration.

 

[waveflyer]

******************** you pcl-
You're a simpleton if you can't see that integrating the lists nationally is fundamentally different than doing it between two companies of widely different seniorities.

The benefits of a NSL far outweigh the issues.

But as long as you know that i'm much smarter than you and thus- don't care what you think, PCL- that's all i really care about. (need proof i'm smarter? I didn't get my time at Gulfstream.)

 

[PCL_128]

Not getting into this argument again. If you still haven't figured out why this won't work, then you never will.

 

[waveflyer]

My only point is that you'll fight a war to integrate AAA/AWA. Another to integrate DAL/NWA- We've already fought wars in this area before and we'll never be done as the airline industry gets more and more dynamic- You'll fight these wars- pilot vs pilot- management winning all along- and in the end all it does is end the debate until seniority gets screwed again through scope or mergers or liquidations. But realize w/ your precious PATTERN BARGAINING that in today's world- our opportunities to raise the bar- are smaller and smaller- and when we miss those opportunities b/c we're fighting each other over seniority- the ENTIRE INDUSTRY LOSES.

It amazes me that every pilot doesn't realize that the time for a national seniority list has arrived. We have leverage in that area b/c mergers and money are being held up b/c our seniority system is in every common sense way screwed all to hell. Noone is going to stop us from correcting this fracked up system.

DOH from the time you passed Military flight school or joined a 121/union carrier- subtract any months/years you weren't flying- and then bid whatever you company, base, and a/c you can hold. Are there problems? yes. Bigger than our own seniority being used against us by management everywhere? Not even close.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Thanks. Temporarily lost my cool Have lots of Dal friends and most know about as much as we do, which is not much. None, I repeat none act like some of the posters here. Anywho, are you going to be in Phx in May for the seminar? If so, I will buy you a beer at the complimentary social :beer:

Good post, bro.

Ignore the trolls.

We'll work this out.

 

[JAM-BRO]

On this among many other issues we agree Occam. Let's hope for a better future for all.

No one here wants a Red book, Green book or any other colored book going forward. We want a unified group.

However, if we can't play well together in the sand box then we are forced to look out for our own interests and get the best deal we can get. Just like you guys tried in NYC. Are you implying that since we(NWA) did not reach an agreement on the SLI, giving up part of YOUR scope to screw us, is OK? PATHETIC!!!!

We can work together or we can play hardball with the best of them. It's best to work together, of course that requires sending committees willing to work towards a negotiated agreement, not abdicating their responsibilities to a third party.

Here's to better days. It's late and I have an important meeting in the am.

What happened to the "WE LIKE OUR STAND-ALONE. WE CAN MAKE IT ON OUR OWN" rant all you DAL guys believe in. All you guys say here, in this order, is how stupid we(NWA) are for not taking the first offer in the first place. Then you say that NWA sucks and that all we bring to table are old planes, cold bases and senior pilots that are salivating to slide into your seats. That you are glad to not have to merge with such a dysfunctional airline. That a merge with NWA is the worst thing that could happen to the DAL pilots. "That was then, this is now, move on." And last, a merger will be good for all. Which one is it?

But now it seems that DAL ALPA is going to give up scope and hand the NWA pilots on a silver platter to the management sharks for some trinkets. To put it lightly, if this is the way it goes down, DAL ALPA will be sinking to the lowest possible form of greed and selfishness.

DON"T YOU GUYS SEE THIS AS WRONG!!!

 

[PuffDriver]

Thanks. Temporarily lost my cool Have lots of Dal friends and most know about as much as we do, which is not much. None, I repeat none act like some of the posters here. Anywho, are you going to be in Phx in May for the seminar? If so, I will buy you a beer at the complimentary social :beer:

What are you losing your cool about? How about you Occam? What seems to be the problem. Let's try a different approach, clear the board.

1) Can we agree that the merger is going to happen? With or without us, can we agree on that? I would agree that whomever posted our chair can stop any merger was correct to a point until the powers that be are going to lose too much money.

2) If you answered yes to #1, can we agree that going to arbitration is a huge unknown for everybody? As such it is not a good idea for either group. I cite 2 things, the last arbitration went very bad for date of hire, I cite that I do not know the last time an arbitration went date of hire. If yes, continue

3) Can we agree that there is a lot of mistrust, perhaps trust-but-verify, on the part of the NWA pilots toward their leadership? As such, that in itself slows the process down, and may all but sabotage it completely. If yes, continue.



You guys need to get over this "bow down to Delta pilots", "we won't succumb no matter what", "we will make everyone miserable" stuff. You can believe what you want of course, but our MEC is deciding today whether or not to alter our contract in order to allow this merger with separate operations. As incentive, there is going to be an increased compensation package. While you have been running around throwing barbs that this is an anonymous board, and nobody could possibly be right about any of the information posted, we have been. It's coming. You can now decide how you are going to handle it. Before you start seeing red, let me add a few other things: I have already read that you will undercut our rates, do you not think that our MEC--who has been waaayyy ahead in this process--wouldn't think of that and institute a protective process? Do you think that it is possible that the remaining DC-9s might just start going away, and Compass may be reduced with the assets brought over to another DCI carrier? Is it possible that the pressure to integrate the lists might already be figured out and starting to be applied? With regard to 100 seat scope, I wouldn't bet for a second that our team would allow it, unless it includes the provision to allow Comair to be a flow-up/flow down type of Compass operation. That would indeed solve our Comair issue. I think even that is a long shot, though, and would garner a "no"vote from me unless they were tacked to the bottom of the list.

I appreciate that you guys consider yourselves such "true unionists". Sometimes I wish our group was a bit more militant. Nonetheless, we are where we are. Our chair and MEC already have a great relationship with RA. I have been here a long time, and I have been through more than a couple CEOs. This CEO and board have been the single most impressive in my tenure. They have finally showed some vision instead of reacting to what's thrown at them. The next round is already underway, and although the french do not overly impress me, our futures will be closely tied to them as open skies starts rearing its ugly head again. Our MEC has already started being very proactive with our alliance MECs, and already have some "treaties" in place. Couple that with the words "depression" and "hyperinflation" used in the same sentence waaayyy too much for my taste and this little project we have going makes even more sense. Some majors are going away, I would rather see us eat this figurative turd, than watch some unemployed pilot group eat them for real.

I have no doubt that both airlines could "struggle" through this time period, although I think that we still haven't seen the worst of it. There will be more airlines going away permanently, and I would rather it be a non-ALPA carrier. This agreement virtually assures that it will not be a NWA or Delta pilot.

Additionally, while your side is just sure that furloughs will be a part of this, I am not so sure, unless we continue down the road of separate lists. We are staffed to the bone, and I have heard that you are the same. We need another 1000 pilots just to staff the 777s and 737-700s we have coming. We are parking some 2 man a/c and replacing them with double crewed 2 man aircraft. You have some 787s coming, but when?

Let me be clear, I want this merger for the long term survival and powerhouse of a company it will be. In particular, it will create some semblance of stability. I also want this merger to go with 1 seniority list. I want a fair integration. In order to do that, NWA are going to have to take a seniority hit, so will the Delta guys. I have seen the numbers, and both sets of guys will benefit in career earnings more than they will without the merger. If the NWA pilots are not willing to realize the very significant gains they would realize, than that is your choice. It is then very likely that your pilot group will shrink in size, and you will find Delta pilots checked out on 787s and airbuses. Planned retirements, orders, what could have been, what should have been mean NOTHING. We are where we are. I hope that demonstrates a kindler, gentler Puff, and I hope that your MEC explains this to you so that you can make a clear, informed choice to steer your MEC.

I will bow out of the discussion and let you take your parting shots. Make 'em good ones.

 

[PuffDriver]

What happened to the "WE LIKE OUR STAND-ALONE. WE CAN MAKE IT ON OUR OWN" rant all you DAL guys believe in. All you guys say here, in this order, is how stupid we(NWA) are for not taking the first offer in the first place. Then you say that NWA sucks and that all we bring to table are old planes, cold bases and senior pilots that are salivating to slide into your seats. That you are glad to not have to merge with such a dysfunctional airline. That a merge with NWA is the worst thing that could happen to the DAL pilots. "That was then, this is now, move on." And last, a merger will be good for all. Which one is it?

But now it seems that DAL ALPA is going to give up scope and hand the NWA pilots on a silver platter to the management sharks for some trinkets. To put it lightly, if this is the way it goes down, DAL ALPA will be sinking to the lowest possible form of greed and selfishness.

DON"T YOU GUYS SEE THIS AS WRONG!!!

Make no mistake about it, NWA is not the angel in this transaction. Their MEC supported this merger from the start and immediately went after our seniority list, and have maintained that position since the start. They are not the angels you make them out to be.

They are a fine group of aviators, who have weak leadership. The Delta leadership tried to work with them, while opposing the merger.

Then things changed. The powers-that-be have decided to go above RA head and consummate this merger. They have decided to reward the team that has been willing to show flexibility in the face of a deal to ensure long term survivability. If NWA decides to show a bit of cooperation, I've no doubt they will be welcomed to the fold with open arms, as that is the way that the power-that-be want it. However, if stubborn prevails, I would imagine that Delta will respond in kind. The cards have been dealt, and NWA leadership will have to decide to lead, or hang.

Yes it is wrong, and it stems from a lack of national leadership. But it is what it is. We are where we are. Airlines are at stake, and will be failing in short order.

 

[123]

Make no mistake about it, NWA is not the angel in this transaction. Their MEC supported this merger from the start and immediately went after our seniority list, and have maintained that position since the start. They are not the angels you make them out to be.
.

Puff,

Has the DALPA leadership put out communications regarding exactly what the DALPA and NWAALPA SLI proposals were/are? We, at NWA, have not received ANY facts about the different positions (only generalizations).

I am trying to understand, and sift through all of the information that is public knowledge, so that I can come to an informed decision on whether I should be really upset, upset, indifferent, happy, really happy.

Thanks,

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

It's pretty obvious that the DAL guys have some fairly sharp spin-meisters. They probably even have some internet geek in the back room at "1 DALPA Place" coordinating the viral marketing campain, since we have the same tools spamming identical talking points on any message board with airline or aviation in the name.

You can always tell, because they:

1) Get hung up on buzzwords like "Transaction Framework Agreement", and spam the hell of it.

2) Posts include MILES of text. The ONLY reason for that much writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure clairty and to cover poor reasoning.

But, really, you guys need to get your story straight. Let's cover the past DAL positions:

1) NWA/DAL might be ok
2) DALPA can STOP any merger!
3) NWA/DAL is dead & buried
4) Management is our friend
5) NWA/DAL is happening whether we want it or not

Really, you guys have all the conviction of a Jesus wheezing preacher that cheats on his wife.

Don't forget, Prater has to sign off on any new DAL contract, and he won't do it if it violates ALPA merger policy. You might want to read it.

Nu

 

[nwaredtail]

Don't forget all the genious' that talk about the raises, equity, aircraft orders, yet none can give any details. I'll give you one guess as to why.....

Puff still has a scab mentality.

I forwarded his posts to my DAL buddies and they laughed and told me to tell all my NWA friends that his is not the overall attitude. They want this to work out for the best of all of us also in these times.

 

[PuffDriver]

Puff,

Has the DALPA leadership put out communications regarding exactly what the DALPA and NWAALPA SLI proposals were/are? We, at NWA, have not received ANY facts about the different positions (only generalizations).

I am trying to understand, and sift through all of the information that is public knowledge, so that I can come to an informed decision on whether I should be really upset, upset, indifferent, happy, really happy.

Thanks,

Officially? No. However, the reps have been in the lounges speaking informally. They don't want to print it, because they don't want the liability until the I's are dotted and the t's crossed. I believe our chairman's letter was posted around here some time ago, again without specific proposals. Everything I have been posting with regard to the SLI has been from people who know. I know that it is frustrating, and I am frustrated as well that we don't know more. I would expect things to move pretty rapidly starting next week. Things may start coming out today with regard to our MECs meeting and possibly tomorrow. I wish I could be more specific. Suffice to say that all trump cards are likely to be played by both MECs. There is even rumblings of Air Midwest coming into this deal--which are interesting and throw yet another dynamic into it.

Contrary to what you might read, I am in favor of the merger, and I am in favor of a fair seniority list. That must protect the senior and junior at both airlines--which will also cause pain at both airlines but create a stronger airline going forward--into the airline globalization world

 

[PuffDriver]

Don't forget all the genious' that talk about the raises, equity, aircraft orders, yet none can give any details. I'll give you one guess as to why.....

Puff still has a scab mentality.

I forwarded his posts to my DAL buddies and they laughed and told me to tell all my NWA friends that his is not the overall attitude. They want this to work out for the best of all of us also in these times.

That is a good try. It is very brave to call someone a scab behind the safety of anonymity. It is another to call it to their face. I invite you to try calling someone a scab in the manner it should be done, to their face.

I have said several times that I want this to work out as amicably as possible. It would appear more and more, however, that the NWA leadership has it in their head that compromise is not in their vocabulary. Fair enough. All my posts have been about what is being put into place in the event that such a mentality continues. The merger is inevitable. The word's "we will kill any deal...." have been appeased--at least in the view of the leadership. Today or tomorrow, we will find out if the MEC agrees. Then we will find out if the membership agrees. Then you will have some decisions to make. Details will be forthcoming, but feel free to keep denying them. But remember, there are consequences to all actions.

Again, the Delta MEC has publicly said that they are not interested in a deal unless it benefits the Delta pilots. Apparently, that threshold has been met. If it wasn't, the deal would be done. The phrase, "the deal is coming no matter what", is for the benefit of the NWA pilots. Both sides must kill the deal. If you do not have the support of both sides to kill the deal, one side cannot do it alone. That threshold has been met as well. Delta is ready to support the deal--at least from the standpoint of the MEC chair. We will find out very soon if the entire MEC feels that way. More to follow, and I hope that clarifies things for you.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

We are cooperating because we (MEC and Co.) believe that this is in our best interests. Long term thinking makes this a no brainier.
The Deal that they were referring to being "dead" was with the NWA MEC. Look at the posts. It was not about the merger.
We want to pave the path for this, and not with anyones careers, but with team work. Get your MEC to wake up and stop trying to reclaim the past. If they cannot, then recall them and get people in their that understand what this market and open-skies really means.

 

[General Lee]

Officially? No. However, the reps have been in the lounges speaking informally. They don't want to print it, because they don't want the liability until the I's are dotted and the t's crossed. I believe our chairman's letter was posted around here some time ago, again without specific proposals. Everything I have been posting with regard to the SLI has been from people who know. I know that it is frustrating, and I am frustrated as well that we don't know more. I would expect things to move pretty rapidly starting next week. Things may start coming out today with regard to our MECs meeting and possibly tomorrow. I wish I could be more specific. Suffice to say that all trump cards are likely to be played by both MECs. There is even rumblings of Air Midwest coming into this deal--which are interesting and throw yet another dynamic into it.

Contrary to what you might read, I am in favor of the merger, and I am in favor of a fair seniority list. That must protect the senior and junior at both airlines--which will also cause pain at both airlines but create a stronger airline going forward--into the airline globalization world

I think you mean Midwest Airlines, not Air Midwest. Air Midwest is a part of Mesa flying Beech 1900s. That might be fun for awhile, but if we do get those 1900s, the DC9 guys will have to fly it. I need an FMS and an autothrottle.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PuffDriver]

I think you mean Midwest Airlines, not Air Midwest. Air Midwest is a part of Mesa flying Beech 1900s. That might be fun for awhile, but if we do get those 1900s, the DC9 guys will have to fly it. I need an FMS and an autothrottle.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

Good point

 

[PuffDriver]

Heyas,

It's pretty obvious that the DAL guys have some fairly sharp spin-meisters. They probably even have some internet geek in the back room at "1 DALPA Place" coordinating the viral marketing campain, since we have the same tools spamming identical talking points on any message board with airline or aviation in the name.

You can always tell, because they:

1) Get hung up on buzzwords like "Transaction Framework Agreement", and spam the hell of it.

2) Posts include MILES of text. The ONLY reason for that much writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure clairty and to cover poor reasoning.

But, really, you guys need to get your story straight. Let's cover the past DAL positions:

1) NWA/DAL might be ok
2) DALPA can STOP any merger!
3) NWA/DAL is dead & buried
4) Management is our friend
5) NWA/DAL is happening whether we want it or not

Really, you guys have all the conviction of a Jesus wheezing preacher that cheats on his wife.

Don't forget, Prater has to sign off on any new DAL contract, and he won't do it if it violates ALPA merger policy. You might want to read it.

Nu

Its funny that you call us the spinmeisters. Prater will sign off on a contract because it will allow both entities to be operated separately. There will BE no violation of ALPA merger policy because it will NOT be invoked. Keep grasping, eventually the reality will become clear.

Remember, the Delta leadership did not ask for this. It is a direct result of NWA leadership overextending their perceived leverage to get the Delta pilots to succumb to their version of a fair list or to arbitration--which is all they know how to do based on their history.