Delta and Northwest revive merger talks

[DTW320]

Tell your leadership that. I agree whole heartedly.
Simply put, the DAL pilots will not agree to arbitration for one simple reason. We do not want to put our careers in the hands of some two bit bureaucrat.

We don't think that is the reason.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I know that you do not, that is why I posted it. I have seen most of this, and from my perspective that is my belief. I would not want arbitration for this reason.
Most, I repeat most of the NWA guys that I have talked to agree that relative seniority (0.5%) is good enough for them. No flush, or bump there. Will there be movement yes, but not what people think.

 

[Fly4hire]

This will breed a new "enemy" for you. One that can, and will, undercut you in the future. Nobody wants to...but human nature is a bitch. A predictable, Be-careful-what-you-wish-for bitch.

Perhaps the DALPA guys think this will be the quid for them not getting all the seniority toys they thought they were entitled to as it might well go to arbitration which they dread?

Problem is they are dealing with NWA managers on both sides, and risk setting up a situation to undercut themselves by allowing NWA/DAL to shift flying to the lower cost unit.

Unless of course the restrictions they are easing and flexibility they are granting further undercut our scope to DAL benefit?

I heard a rumor this might involve DALPA allowing up to 100 seat future flying to be done by the feeders, killing the DC9 replacement at the mainilne and shaving 1000 pilots off the NWA seniority list also solving thier SLI problem.

 

[clippyrip]

Who do we stand behind?

Each other....pilots looking out for pilots! FUC! management!

It is the old school good cop bad cop routine. They are taking us into separate rooms and trying to break us. PURE BS!

 

[DTW320]

I know that you do not, that is why I posted it. I have seen most of this, and from my perspective that is my belief. I would not want arbitration for this reason.
Most, I repeat most of the NWA guys that I have talked to agree that relative seniority (0.5%) is good enough for them. No flush, or bump there. Will there be movement yes, but not what people think.

Again, I disagree that it was 0.5%. But even if it was, again, YOUR scope allows YOUR company to park DC-9's with NO penalty. Why would we agree to an SLI that puts a lot of our guys on the bottom as we simultaneously change to a scope clause that allows DAL to park the planes those guys fly, with no penalty?

 

[Superpilot92]

The only way to do this is to merge the lists in the best way possible. Mgmt wants nothing more than to play us against each other. A quick look at the regionals will show you we cant let that happen. Nothing keeps pay down like whipsawing. 1 solid pilot group pulls much more weight against mgmt then 2 divided groups.

 

[Superpilot92]

Again, I disagree that it was 0.5%. But even if it was, again, YOUR scope allows YOUR company to park DC-9's with NO penalty. Why would we agree to an SLI that puts a lot of our guys on the bottom as we simultaneously change to a scope clause that allows DAL to park the planes those guys fly, with no penalty?

excellent point, that is why scope language is huge.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Fact is that DAL will have hired 700 and NWA 150 or so. If you park the 68 remaining DC-9's guess who is going to the street with either. The new hires. Not anyone else. Relative seniority is the same as DOH with this. 680 pilots from the bottom unless there is something written in to the PWA.
That will be mostly DAL girls and guys, sorry.

I would assume that you Compass agreement would live in the new document. If not I see your concern, but either way it is the 07 and 08 hires that will be redoing their resumes. No one else.

 

[800Dog]

Again, I disagree that it was 0.5%. But even if it was, again, YOUR scope allows YOUR company to park DC-9's with NO penalty. Why would we agree to an SLI that puts a lot of our guys on the bottom as we simultaneously change to a scope clause that allows DAL to park the planes those guys fly, with no penalty?

Just a question. If NWA starts parking DC-9s tomorrow and furloughs follow, do those at the bottom of the list go to compass? If the above scenario happens after a merger, will the jr. DAL/NWA guys go to compass? Hate to say it but, we at Delta have done a terrible job in regards to scope. This has been one reason why I have voted no on all agreements thus far. Once again, if this goes through, 1st round is on me on layovers!! My enemy is and always will be management and anti-labor govt. officials.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I would assume that you Compass agreement would live in the new document. If not I see your concern, but either way it is the 07 and 08 hires that will be redoing their resumes. No one else.

You are correct, but there is the option of pulling down both NWA's DC9's and Compass which you & I are discussing in other thread.

If NWA's fleet goes below min levels, RJ's have to be parked, true. But nothing keeps Delta from transferring the RJ's to cover one of their other obligations to small jet lift providers ... and since they are larger RJ's &new contracts they could dress Comair up for a sale using transferred NWA lift while we junior pups get flushed.

Of course, if the NWA pilots continue to obstruct a deal, it will be more difficult for them to argue their furloughed DC9 pilots should be slotted ahead of employed 767ER pilots.

This is why I always fight for all the flying on one list. As long as we allow separate lists there are going to be options available to management that result in our furlough & whipsaw.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

true, and no language is safe from a good attorney.
We need professional negotiators for all of our contracts.
I am willing to pay for that. We as pilots cannot detach ourselves from our jobs. We take it too personally, and over look things that can be quite obvious. Management does not do that, because they do not have a broke seniority system to deal with. We do. But alas that is a flight for another thread.

 

[DTW320]

Fact is that DAL will have hired 700 and NWA 150 or so. If you park the 68 remaining DC-9's guess who is going to the street with either. The new hires. Not anyone else. Relative seniority is the same as DOH with this. 680 pilots from the bottom unless there is something written in to the PWA.
That will be mostly DAL girls and guys, sorry.

OK, let's go with that theory for a minute. So DALPA is going to sign off on a merger/PWA deal that allows for the furlough of hundreds of DAL pilots? I thought Moak/DALPA et all could stop a merger? Is this scenario one that does not warrant stopping the merger?

I think it's becoming obvious that, despite the rhetoric, Moak has no ability to stop anything that the suits really want and, faced with that reality(finally), is prepared to sell even more Scope with this rumored "deal".

I thought the "new" DALPA wouldn't sell out the junior guys like the "old" DALPA did in the 90's?

 

[Superpilot92]

You are correct, but there is the option of pulling down both NWA's DC9's and Compass which you & I are discussing in other thread.

If NWA's fleet goes below min levels, RJ's have to be parked, true. But nothing keeps Delta from transferring the RJ's to cover one of their other obligations to small jet lift providers ... and since they are larger RJ's &new contracts they could dress Comair up for a sale using transferred NWA lift while we junior pups get flushed.

Of course, if the NWA pilots continue to obstruct a deal, it will be more difficult for them to argue their furloughed DC9 pilots should be slotted ahead of employed 767ER pilots.

This is why I always fight for all the flying on one list. As long as we allow separate lists there are going to be options available to management that result in our furlough & whipsaw.

Thats exactly what i am arguing about what DALALPA is trying to do by snuggling up to DAL mgmt. That would be very bad for all of us and the industry if mgmt starts to whipsaw the mainline side. Its bad enough at the regional level as we all know.

 

[DTW320]

Of course, if the NWA pilots continue to obstruct a deal, it will be more difficult for them to argue their furloughed DC9 pilots should be slotted ahead of employed 767ER pilots.

Puhleeeeeeze. Like that was our position.

I've agreed with a lot of what you say in your recent posts, but come on.....step away from the Koolaid and get a clue.

 

[nwaredtail]

Why is all the talk about parking only NWA DC-9's? How about DAL's MD-80's? They are almost as fuel in-efficient, etc.
Oh, that's right. I forget. They are DELTA MD-80's. Nevermind.

 

[DTW320]

Just a question. If NWA starts parking DC-9s tomorrow and furloughs follow, do those at the bottom of the list go to compass?YES. If the above scenario happens after a merger, will the jr. DAL/NWA guys go to compass?Unknown. Ask DALPA. They are the ones that are apparently hosting a contract fire-sale to get some $ from RA. Hate to say it but, we at Delta have done a terrible job in regards to scope. This has been one reason why I have voted no on all agreements thus far. Once again, if this goes through, 1st round is on me on layovers!! My enemy is and always will be management and anti-labor govt. officials.Agreed!

Take Care

 

[General Lee]

Perhaps the DALPA guys think this will be the quid for them not getting all the seniority toys they thought they were entitled to as it might well go to arbitration which they dread?

Problem is they are dealing with NWA managers on both sides, and risk setting up a situation to undercut themselves by allowing NWA/DAL to shift flying to the lower cost unit.

Unless of course the restrictions they are easing and flexibility they are granting further undercut our scope to DAL benefit?

I heard a rumor this might involve DALPA allowing up to 100 seat future flying to be done by the feeders, killing the DC9 replacement at the mainilne and shaving 1000 pilots off the NWA seniority list also solving thier SLI problem.

I don't see any of that happening. We have pay rates for 100 seaters (E190s/E195s/CR9s above 76 seats) and I can't see Dalpa giving those up. That would be ridiculous.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

Puhleeeeeeze. Like that was our position.

Your first position, yes. Your second position, no. Then your MEC withdrew your second position and returned to your first position. So I think the answer is yes. You tell me.

Even under Delta's relative seniority offer I'd been flushed if there wasn't something to keep hands off the chrome handle.

 

[DTW320]

Your first position, yes. Your second position, no. Then your MEC withdrew your second position and returned to your first position. So I think the answer is yes. You tell me.

Even under Delta's relative seniority offer I'd been flushed if there wasn't something to keep hands off the chrome handle.

Psst: We didn't have any furloughed pilots when we gave our first position.

 

[~~~^~~~]

....and you don't now either. That wasn't the point.