Delta and Northwest revive merger talks

[DTW320]

Tell your leadership that. I agree whole heartedly.
Simply put, the DAL pilots will not agree to arbitration for one simple reason. We do not want to put our careers in the hands of some two bit bureaucrat.

We don't think that is the reason.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I know that you do not, that is why I posted it. I have seen most of this, and from my perspective that is my belief. I would not want arbitration for this reason.
Most, I repeat most of the NWA guys that I have talked to agree that relative seniority (0.5%) is good enough for them. No flush, or bump there. Will there be movement yes, but not what people think.

 

[Fly4hire]

This will breed a new "enemy" for you. One that can, and will, undercut you in the future. Nobody wants to...but human nature is a bitch. A predictable, Be-careful-what-you-wish-for bitch.

Perhaps the DALPA guys think this will be the quid for them not getting all the seniority toys they thought they were entitled to as it might well go to arbitration which they dread?

Problem is they are dealing with NWA managers on both sides, and risk setting up a situation to undercut themselves by allowing NWA/DAL to shift flying to the lower cost unit.

Unless of course the restrictions they are easing and flexibility they are granting further undercut our scope to DAL benefit?

I heard a rumor this might involve DALPA allowing up to 100 seat future flying to be done by the feeders, killing the DC9 replacement at the mainilne and shaving 1000 pilots off the NWA seniority list also solving thier SLI problem.

 

[clippyrip]

Who do we stand behind?

Each other....pilots looking out for pilots! FUC! management!

It is the old school good cop bad cop routine. They are taking us into separate rooms and trying to break us. PURE BS!

 

[DTW320]

I know that you do not, that is why I posted it. I have seen most of this, and from my perspective that is my belief. I would not want arbitration for this reason.
Most, I repeat most of the NWA guys that I have talked to agree that relative seniority (0.5%) is good enough for them. No flush, or bump there. Will there be movement yes, but not what people think.

Again, I disagree that it was 0.5%. But even if it was, again, YOUR scope allows YOUR company to park DC-9's with NO penalty. Why would we agree to an SLI that puts a lot of our guys on the bottom as we simultaneously change to a scope clause that allows DAL to park the planes those guys fly, with no penalty?

 

[Superpilot92]

The only way to do this is to merge the lists in the best way possible. Mgmt wants nothing more than to play us against each other. A quick look at the regionals will show you we cant let that happen. Nothing keeps pay down like whipsawing. 1 solid pilot group pulls much more weight against mgmt then 2 divided groups.

 

[Superpilot92]

Again, I disagree that it was 0.5%. But even if it was, again, YOUR scope allows YOUR company to park DC-9's with NO penalty. Why would we agree to an SLI that puts a lot of our guys on the bottom as we simultaneously change to a scope clause that allows DAL to park the planes those guys fly, with no penalty?

excellent point, that is why scope language is huge.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Fact is that DAL will have hired 700 and NWA 150 or so. If you park the 68 remaining DC-9's guess who is going to the street with either. The new hires. Not anyone else. Relative seniority is the same as DOH with this. 680 pilots from the bottom unless there is something written in to the PWA.
That will be mostly DAL girls and guys, sorry.

I would assume that you Compass agreement would live in the new document. If not I see your concern, but either way it is the 07 and 08 hires that will be redoing their resumes. No one else.

 

[800Dog]

Again, I disagree that it was 0.5%. But even if it was, again, YOUR scope allows YOUR company to park DC-9's with NO penalty. Why would we agree to an SLI that puts a lot of our guys on the bottom as we simultaneously change to a scope clause that allows DAL to park the planes those guys fly, with no penalty?

Just a question. If NWA starts parking DC-9s tomorrow and furloughs follow, do those at the bottom of the list go to compass? If the above scenario happens after a merger, will the jr. DAL/NWA guys go to compass? Hate to say it but, we at Delta have done a terrible job in regards to scope. This has been one reason why I have voted no on all agreements thus far. Once again, if this goes through, 1st round is on me on layovers!! My enemy is and always will be management and anti-labor govt. officials.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I would assume that you Compass agreement would live in the new document. If not I see your concern, but either way it is the 07 and 08 hires that will be redoing their resumes. No one else.

You are correct, but there is the option of pulling down both NWA's DC9's and Compass which you & I are discussing in other thread.

If NWA's fleet goes below min levels, RJ's have to be parked, true. But nothing keeps Delta from transferring the RJ's to cover one of their other obligations to small jet lift providers ... and since they are larger RJ's &new contracts they could dress Comair up for a sale using transferred NWA lift while we junior pups get flushed.

Of course, if the NWA pilots continue to obstruct a deal, it will be more difficult for them to argue their furloughed DC9 pilots should be slotted ahead of employed 767ER pilots.

This is why I always fight for all the flying on one list. As long as we allow separate lists there are going to be options available to management that result in our furlough & whipsaw.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

true, and no language is safe from a good attorney.
We need professional negotiators for all of our contracts.
I am willing to pay for that. We as pilots cannot detach ourselves from our jobs. We take it too personally, and over look things that can be quite obvious. Management does not do that, because they do not have a broke seniority system to deal with. We do. But alas that is a flight for another thread.

 

[DTW320]

Fact is that DAL will have hired 700 and NWA 150 or so. If you park the 68 remaining DC-9's guess who is going to the street with either. The new hires. Not anyone else. Relative seniority is the same as DOH with this. 680 pilots from the bottom unless there is something written in to the PWA.
That will be mostly DAL girls and guys, sorry.

OK, let's go with that theory for a minute. So DALPA is going to sign off on a merger/PWA deal that allows for the furlough of hundreds of DAL pilots? I thought Moak/DALPA et all could stop a merger? Is this scenario one that does not warrant stopping the merger?

I think it's becoming obvious that, despite the rhetoric, Moak has no ability to stop anything that the suits really want and, faced with that reality(finally), is prepared to sell even more Scope with this rumored "deal".

I thought the "new" DALPA wouldn't sell out the junior guys like the "old" DALPA did in the 90's?

 

[Superpilot92]

You are correct, but there is the option of pulling down both NWA's DC9's and Compass which you & I are discussing in other thread.

If NWA's fleet goes below min levels, RJ's have to be parked, true. But nothing keeps Delta from transferring the RJ's to cover one of their other obligations to small jet lift providers ... and since they are larger RJ's &new contracts they could dress Comair up for a sale using transferred NWA lift while we junior pups get flushed.

Of course, if the NWA pilots continue to obstruct a deal, it will be more difficult for them to argue their furloughed DC9 pilots should be slotted ahead of employed 767ER pilots.

This is why I always fight for all the flying on one list. As long as we allow separate lists there are going to be options available to management that result in our furlough & whipsaw.

Thats exactly what i am arguing about what DALALPA is trying to do by snuggling up to DAL mgmt. That would be very bad for all of us and the industry if mgmt starts to whipsaw the mainline side. Its bad enough at the regional level as we all know.

 

[DTW320]

Of course, if the NWA pilots continue to obstruct a deal, it will be more difficult for them to argue their furloughed DC9 pilots should be slotted ahead of employed 767ER pilots.

Puhleeeeeeze. Like that was our position.

I've agreed with a lot of what you say in your recent posts, but come on.....step away from the Koolaid and get a clue.

 

[nwaredtail]

Why is all the talk about parking only NWA DC-9's? How about DAL's MD-80's? They are almost as fuel in-efficient, etc.
Oh, that's right. I forget. They are DELTA MD-80's. Nevermind.

 

[DTW320]

Just a question. If NWA starts parking DC-9s tomorrow and furloughs follow, do those at the bottom of the list go to compass?YES. If the above scenario happens after a merger, will the jr. DAL/NWA guys go to compass?Unknown. Ask DALPA. They are the ones that are apparently hosting a contract fire-sale to get some $ from RA. Hate to say it but, we at Delta have done a terrible job in regards to scope. This has been one reason why I have voted no on all agreements thus far. Once again, if this goes through, 1st round is on me on layovers!! My enemy is and always will be management and anti-labor govt. officials.Agreed!

Take Care

 

[General Lee]

Perhaps the DALPA guys think this will be the quid for them not getting all the seniority toys they thought they were entitled to as it might well go to arbitration which they dread?

Problem is they are dealing with NWA managers on both sides, and risk setting up a situation to undercut themselves by allowing NWA/DAL to shift flying to the lower cost unit.

Unless of course the restrictions they are easing and flexibility they are granting further undercut our scope to DAL benefit?

I heard a rumor this might involve DALPA allowing up to 100 seat future flying to be done by the feeders, killing the DC9 replacement at the mainilne and shaving 1000 pilots off the NWA seniority list also solving thier SLI problem.

I don't see any of that happening. We have pay rates for 100 seaters (E190s/E195s/CR9s above 76 seats) and I can't see Dalpa giving those up. That would be ridiculous.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

Puhleeeeeeze. Like that was our position.

Your first position, yes. Your second position, no. Then your MEC withdrew your second position and returned to your first position. So I think the answer is yes. You tell me.

Even under Delta's relative seniority offer I'd been flushed if there wasn't something to keep hands off the chrome handle.

 

[DTW320]

Your first position, yes. Your second position, no. Then your MEC withdrew your second position and returned to your first position. So I think the answer is yes. You tell me.

Even under Delta's relative seniority offer I'd been flushed if there wasn't something to keep hands off the chrome handle.

Psst: We didn't have any furloughed pilots when we gave our first position.

 

[~~~^~~~]

....and you don't now either. That wasn't the point.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Well part of the PWA General was to take those rates off of the table and renegotiate new rates later. Also the 737-700 rates would be the 800 rates.

Now to answer your question DTW.
I first and foremost was answering your previous question. DOH vs Ratio.
Second, the first round at this included a no furlough clause. Argue what you will that they suck, but fact is that unless 9/11 happens again they are very hard to get around. Any loophole would have been closed.
Come to present day. Last official rumor was that that offer is off the table. Tough times call for tough measures.
Personally the only reason that you would park the 9's is to prove a point. If you would do that before adding lift you leave a gap in the market that will be filled by AAI, B6 and the like. It gives those LLC a reason to live. With out that they will be gone or merge shortly. Facts are facts. I think that our management team knows this as well.
I believe that the 9's and their costs are well worth the long term pricing power that this airline would have. Long term view here. If not I guarantee that we will be seeing a lot of 700's not 70's on property to replace them. It could be a DCI type. That later would not be an issue if the NWA pilots showed up to play ball and not chicken. Alas, we are where we are and I do not think that anyone including our lustrously management teams likes it one bit.

 

[~~~^~~~]

the 737-700 rates would be the 800 rates.

I believe that the 9's and their costs are well worth the long term pricing power that this airline would have. Long term view here. If not I guarantee that we will be seeing a lot of 700's not 70's on property to replace them. It could be a DCI type.

737-700's at DCI? Obviously I misunderstand your post, or did Doug Helms get access to your sign on?

This whole merger would be much easier if we could be assured that the DC9 replacements would be flown by mainline pilots.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

No, here on DAL property. Fin.
Part of the original PWA for this new airline had the 700 rates go to 800 rates. I said 70's so that some would not confuse the two. The 700 is a great replacement aircraft for the 9. So is the C series or the 190's Not the CRJ 1000 though.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The economic analysis I've seen and the management reports I've heard indicate the RJ's are better DC-9 replacements and Delta is bound in contracts that they can't wiggle out of.

Replacing 9's with RJ's saves money, increases revenues (by slightly restricting supply) and provides a huge chunk of up front cash in the sale of RJ flying to bidders (like SkyWest/Republic/Private Equity) who are awash with cash.

I hope you are right, but I think the 737-700 order went out the window with higher fuel. It is heavy for what it does and only pays for itself over longer routes, or operations where its' hot and high performance is required.

Again, I hope you are right, but economically the CRJ700 and 900 series are such good DC9 replacements (and some MD88's) that the numbers can't be ignored.

The solution is to get those operations on our list. That way we do not have to worry what airplane management decides to buy.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I agree Fin really I do. But I think that larger gauge aircraft are the way to go. Maybe some more 90's or 717 that are on the market.
Midex has those and 47% of their board votes are part of NWA/TPG. And there will be a few more of those one the market shortly. RJ's are not the only answer. And if fuel keeps going up the RJ is not the answer period. Bigger ones yes, but not the 900 or 170's, only ones that could be flown by us under the current scope clause.

 

[PuffDriver]

Puffy,

This is a huge mistake. It will hurt you, and your DAL brothers, in the end.

This will breed a new "enemy" for you. One that can, and will, undercut you in the future. Nobody wants to...but human nature is a bitch. A predictable, Be-careful-what-you-wish-for bitch.

The kind of bitch that quickly agrees, under it's separate contract, to fly "your" B777's and B787's for $50 less per hour. Not cuz we're cozy with management, but because we'll want to screw the jerks who put us in this position.

That'd be you.

Your "We had to do this! We had no other choice but to cut our own deal and kick you to the curb!" excuse will come back to haunt you.

Not a threat.

A promise.

From one student of human nature to another. (I was going to type "brother", but it didn't fit under these circumstances. Your choice)

No, the huge mistake was made when NWA wanted the money and the retirement and the seniority. No good bucko. You guys had your chance, and the time is quickly approaching where the rubber meets the road.

NWA has decided that you are being merged. Your contract has a ginormous loophole in it which could be your death knoll. While you are plotting your revenge against the Delta pilots--hey why not since you already have 2 other enemies on NWA property--your flying will go away as well as Compass.

You have had your chance, and have your leadership to blame for playing the hand you think that you had as opposed to the one you really had. For people who are so mistrusting of management, you sure had a lot of faith in yours not betraying you.

Simple fact is that the very scenario you describe, undercutting, is what is happening to you due to your MECs lack of preparation, diligence, and sense of fairness.

It is your leadership that is bringing this on. Remember that as your pilots begin hitting the streets.

"The common link in all of your dissatisfying relationships is YOU."

BTW, what makes you think that the Delta MEC--who has been way out ahead of this thing from the start--hasn't already conceived, addressed, and solved your little scenario of being the pissed off rejected girl?

How about this: company's merged, NWA and compass dissolved over time, Comair given the 100 seat jet and stapled to the bottom of the list. If you are going to play 8's as aces, perhaps we will turn over our cards and have aces you never knew existed.

Or maybe this all is just another slap upside the head badly needed by your MEC

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Well put Puff, and yes our MEC is way head of that issue.
If you play well today you will be rewarded for it. I would put money on there being some provisos in such an agreement if it were to come to that.

 

[nwaredtail]

No, the huge mistake was made when NWA wanted the money and the retirement and the seniority. No good bucko. You guys had your chance, and the time is quickly approaching where the rubber meets the road.

Really. Who told you this is what we wanted. Because it is not even close to what we discussed with your merger committee and the "little" one

NWA has decided that you are being merged. Your contract has a ginormous loophole in it which could be your death knoll. Maybe. If scumbag pilots allow 100 seat flying to be done by other than NWA or Delta mainline pilots. Think SCABS!

You have had your chance, and have your leadership to blame for playing the hand you think that you had as opposed to the one you really had. Yup, 2 proposals from DALALPA in 12 weeks. I know you all are from down south and all, but, if you could work a little faster, we maybe could have gotten the deal done.

Simple fact is that the very scenario you describe, undercutting, is what is happening to you due to your MECs lack of preparation, diligence, and sense of fairness. Like ASA, Comair, Skywest did to Delta when you gave away your scope. Short memory huh?

It is your leadership that is bringing this on. Remember that as your pilots begin hitting the streets. Yup, sold out by scab, scumbags, pilots like yourself. Puff driver huh? "No fighters available", isn't that the line from the 130 guys.

"The common link in all of your dissatisfying relationships is YOU."

BTW, what makes you think that the Delta MEC--who has been way out ahead of this thing from the start--hasn't already conceived, addressed, and solved your little scenario of being the pissed off rejected girl? Because we probably thought DAL pilots had some integrity and honer, shame on us.

How about this: company's merged, NWA and compass dissolved over time, Comair given the 100 seat jet and stapled to the bottom of the list. If you are going to play 8's as aces, perhaps we will turn over our cards and have aces you never knew existed.

How about this, 4500 pissed of NWA pilots let NWA and DAL go under. It's happened before.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Because we probably thought DAL pilots had some integrity and honer, shame on us.

How about this, 4500 pissed of NWA pilots let NWA and DAL go under. It's happened before.

That's rich.

Why not take Delta's offer and screw the Delta pilots? Then laugh at us as our relative seniority gets us the right seat of a DC9 in Detroit?

 

[nwaredtail]

That's rich.

Why not take Delta's offer and screw the Delta pilots? Then laugh at us as our relative seniority gets us the right seat of a DC9 in Detroit?

Which Delta offer was that? Details please.

Was it the offer to have 80% of the widebody seats in 5 years be all DAL pilots? Or the offer to furlough 700 plus NWA pilots only? How about the offer to give the 100 seat flying to the regionals? Was it the ratioed list plus 20% offer, in favor of the DAL pilots.

Exactly which one of those is it?