Delta and Compass Arrangement

[G2T]

Cool for those guys, sucks for everyone else. It is kind of interesting that there will be a lot of more qualified guys bypassed at other airlines to allow guys at those companies to flow to their rightful slot at Delta. The life of the charmed.............

Rightful slot, A lot more qualified, Life of the charmed? Compared to what? There is nothing charmed about how most people got to Compass.

 

[DrewBlows]

Hmm! Follow me on this one, being the Devil's advocate.

Note: The interpretation is based solely on the above language. If there is something more, then the interpretation could change.

The first paragraph starts out with the word "offer." Wonder if Delta starts hiring, and there is no "offer." In other words, it sounds like there is nothing guaranteed, that it has to be "offered." There is nothing in this language that prevents the NWA, now Delta, from hiring from other sources and never hire from this pilot group. It clearly states that there has to be an "offer" under this agreement before the prescribed process has to be followed. It speaks more to the process that will be followed and never provides any guarantees of whether there will be an "offer," or that there are any priorites in hiring Compass pilots over any other pilot.

What the language really deals with is the creation of a methodical process that will take place if there is an "offer." In other words, should an "offer" be made, the process dictates pilot requirements to "qualify" to flow, and how many can flow in a given period of time so as not to deplete the staffing of this company. It is simply a process that "yokes" the pilots and regulates how, and the maximum number that can leave. It speaks nothing to any guarantees or priorites in the Delta hiring or the composite of their class, and how many if any Compass pilots would be in any new hire Delta class. This agreement simply dictates "how," and the maximum number of Compass pilots in a given period of time that can leave IF an "offer" is made. This benefits Compass.

In short, there is no mention to exclusitivity or priority in how NW, now Delta, has to hire in it's classes. Based on the language presented, Delta could hire XX number of classes of pilots and never make an "offer" to hire any Compass pilots under this agreement. Delta, even if bound, could never make an "offer", make one offer of "2", sprinkle a few "offers" here and there, or make "offers" however it chose.

At least in the language presented, there is nothing prescibed that required NWA, now Delta, to follow any required hiring numbers at Compass, in any priority in a Delta class. This agreement simply describes how qualifed pilots will leave in seniority order, and the maximums, not minimum required, allowed over a given period, IF an "offer" is made under this agreement.

The language immediately above the language posted by porpilot. CPZ PWA 22.D.3 if you are following along at home. References to "Northwest Airlines" now refer to "Delta Air Lines" per successorship language.

Compass Airlines pilots will be offered employment at Northwest Airlines before any other Northwest Airlines Affiliate Carrier or new hires from the street directly to Northwest Airlines.

 

[DrewBlows]

Rightful slot, A lot more qualified, Life of the charmed? Compared to what? There is nothing charmed about how most people got to Compass.

You mean Compass pilots aren't all 23 year old, NWA executive's children with "shiny jet syndrome." I know I took the job because I became bored of racing Daddy's Ferrari's...

 

[79%N1]

Rightful slot, A lot more qualified, Life of the charmed? Compared to what? There is nothing charmed about how most people got to Compass.

Not saying at all that it was easy to get to Compass. It is eyebrow raising that they will the the vast majority of all Delta newhires in the future. They advertise an automatic 4 year transition to Delta, while many others that have been toiling at other regionals for 8, 10 or more years has no hope of getting in there now. (Unless Delta hires 40 -50 or more a month!)

Not begrudging them their contractual rights. It is just interesting that the last and newest of all the DCI carriers and wholly-owneds gets this preferrential of agreement.

BTW. What is in that agreement for Delta pilots? Is there a flowback to Compass or bunches of furloughed pilots placed there?

 

[G2T]

Not saying at all that it was easy to get to Compass.

BTW. What is in that agreement for Delta pilots? Is there a flowback to Compass or bunches of furloughed pilots placed there?

And I'm not saying it's hard to get to Compass, just that most people here have either been at their career airline and it shut down, or been furloughed from _______ (fill in any major or regional, and there is probably a representative).

Yeah, there's a flowback, and we still have a few of NWA's furloughed as well.

 

[79%N1]

Oh, and by a lot more qualified, I mean that there are pilots with much more experience at other airlines that have been stuck there since before the 9-11 and economic downturns that haven't been able to move on yet. How can you argue that point when Compass has only been around for a few years? How many years has the most senior pilot on the list been there? And I'm not saying that there are not guys who hired on there that were vastly experienced. But, I personally know of a few FO's from ASA that were hired on there, and will get a chance to go to Delta now long before guys that have been at ASA, Comair, etc.. will ever get a chance to go to Delta.

 

[79%N1]

And I'm not saying it's hard to get to Compass, just that most people here have either been at their career airline and it shut down, or been furloughed from _______ (fill in any major or regional, and there is probably a representative).

Yeah, there's a flowback, and we still have a few of NWA's furloughed as well.

I 100% get what you are saying. I know that there are many, many like that there at Compass, and again - NOT begrudging them their slot to Delta. It just seems a bit tilted way far to one side. But, good for the Compass guys.

 

[mynameisjim]

BTW. What is in that agreement for Delta pilots? Is there a flowback to Compass or bunches of furloughed pilots placed there?

The agreement was written by NWA and NWA ALPA before Compass pilots were hired yet. So Compass pilots didn't write themselves an agreement, NWA pilots wrote one that seemed fair to them.

The agreement allows for 20 a month to flow back and 20 a month to flow up. Flow backs get super seniority and some extra longevity versus new hires. Flow ups get to be normal new hires with no special treatment, except their Compass 401k's get vested.

 

[NuGuy]

I 100% get what you are saying. I know that there are many, many like that there at Compass, and again - NOT begrudging them their slot to Delta. It just seems a bit tilted way far to one side. But, good for the Compass guys.

Heyas,

ANY of the wholly owned carriers could have stepped up and said "hey, we'll give you a flow back if you give us a flow up".

Had Comair's past actions not so poisoned the well at the DAL mainline, then they may have had a shot. One thing I've learned is the DAL guys have a LONG memory, and they had their bed sh!t in not once, but twice. It sucks you guys are still paying for past mistakes, but oh well.

So does ASA and Skywest have to pay "for the sins of the brother"? Well, in this case, the answer seems to be yes, and they're not wholly owned besides. Skywest isn't even union, let alone ALPA, so why the heck would they get ANY special consideration...at all?

The Compass guys stepped up to the plate. They knew that virtually %100 of their jobs were flowback slots for the mainline, and they could have all been displaced to the street in the course of a year, but they rolled the dice and went there anyway.

Addtionally, for most of their existance have been represented by the NWA/DAL MEC.

The XJ guys have a slightly different arrangement, but for every guy that flows up XJ, mainline guys flow back into the OLD seniority slots (IE at the top).

I didn't see any other outfit that put those kinds of chips on the table.

As for non-DAL carriers, well, that's the shakes.

Nu

 

[SpauldingSmails]

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Thank you Nu. You said that well.

We threw our johnsons on the chopping block, and the knife never came down. Now that it looks as if the flow will go the other way, everyone wants a piece of the action. What a surprise.

 

[FlyingBS]

From what I read on APC, Mesaba pilots have an agreement only with their MGMT and no one else is bound. It sounds like the Mesaba MGMT simply signed a non binding agreement offering a flow through that has not obligated NWA, now Delta. Maybe, they are trying to blow sunshine. They are selling snake oil.

As far as the numbers you have stated, where could one find such an agreement?

Speedtape- For information concerning Mesaba's flowthrough agreement ref. NWA LOA 2007-05 and 2008-01. All of the details you want to know are in those agreements. 9 per month up to 10% of our total group in a rolling 12 months. We flow after the Compass guys.

Respectively speaking, I don't see what the big deal is? These argreements were negotiated by the NWA pilots and their mgt as stated in the agreements.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Thank you Nu. You said that well.

We threw our johnsons on the chopping block, and the knife never came down. Now that it looks as if the flow will go the other way, everyone wants a piece of the action. What a surprise.

I'll remember you said that when Delta starts hiring again. I predict this...

They plan to hire X number of pilots. Well, instead of having their nuts in a sling for 25 per class coming from Mesaba and Compass, they will just hire all X pilots in the same class, that lets them use their selection process for X-25.

Don't be surprised if there is only one class per year!

 

[FlyingBS]

I'll remember you said that when Delta starts hiring again. I predict this...

They plan to hire X number of pilots. Well, instead of having their nuts in a sling for 25 per class coming from Mesaba and Compass, they will just hire all X pilots in the same class, that lets them use their selection process for X-25.

Don't be surprised if there is only one class per year!

I understand your argument; however, there are some protections in the MSA agreement to help mitigate your theory.

I have also been in this industry long enough to understand that nothing is written in stone.

 

[sweptback]

I didn't see any other outfit that put those kinds of chips on the table.

That's because the NWA MEC was much more progressive than the DAL MEC. There never was any offer made from the DAL MEC to any of the wholly-owned regionals (or contract carriers for that matter) about any type of flow. Of course, post BK the only wholly-owned DAL carrier was CMR, and no way would the DAL pilots lift a finger to help a CMR pilot.

After the DAL MEC inherited the NWA MEC, things are getting more progressive over there. The flow, like it or not, is part of the deal and quite honestly probably saved a crapload of DAL pilots from being furloughed. Hopefully things will change in the future and more pilot groups will get included, but I predict egos will get in the way and nothing will happen.

 

[General Lee]

That's because the NWA MEC was much more progressive than the DAL MEC. There never was any offer made from the DAL MEC to any of the wholly-owned regionals (or contract carriers for that matter) about any type of flow. Of course, post BK the only wholly-owned DAL carrier was CMR, and no way would the DAL pilots lift a finger to help a CMR pilot.

After the DAL MEC inherited the NWA MEC, things are getting more progressive over there. The flow, like it or not, is part of the deal and quite honestly probably saved a crapload of DAL pilots from being furloughed. Hopefully things will change in the future and more pilot groups will get included, but I predict egos will get in the way and nothing will happen.

That is just not true. The DAL MEC did offer a flow through or preferrential hiring to Comair and ASA, but they wanted DOH. (no joke) They said "We fly DL passengers, so we should have DL numbers." Then they thought they were going to get DOH thanks to the ALPA merger policy. I honestly saw an ASA Captain jumping up and down saying "I will move right into the MD11 right seat." I saw another ASA Captain say in his deep voice (he was a CP for ASA for awhile supposedly) "I want to retire on the 737-800 doing Latin America flights." I heard those quotes directly, and that is the absolute truth. (I was jumpseating at the time)


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[sweptback]

That is just not true. The DAL MEC did offer a flow through or preferrential hiring to Comair and ASA, but they wanted DOH. (no joke) They said "We fly DL passengers, so we should have DL numbers." Then they thought they were going to get DOH thanks to the ALPA merger policy. I honestly saw an ASA Captain jumping up and down saying "I will move right into the MD11 right seat." I saw another ASA Captain say in his deep voice (he was a CP for ASA for awhile supposedly) "I want to retire on the 737-800 doing Latin America flights." I heard those quotes directly, and that is the absolute truth. (I was jumpseating at the time)

I was talking about the time frame that Compass was created, not 10 years prior. I am not interested in beating a dead horse, but I will say that the NWA MEC was able to work with their wholly-owned regionals to find a flow that worked for both parties.

 

[wings421]

I was talking about the time frame that Compass was created, not 10 years prior. I am not interested in beating a dead horse, but I will say that the NWA MEC was able to work with their wholly-owned regionals to find a flow that worked for both parties.

You mean the entire conception of Compass which was created to outsource NWA DC9 flying? Not quite the same as a regional and major "coming to terms". I believe the flow was part of the deal from the get go and it was one of the tools that was used to get the pilots to bite off on it while they had a gun to their head. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[sweptback]

You mean the entire conception of Compass which was created to outsource NWA DC9 flying? Not quite the same as a regional and major "coming to terms". I believe the flow was part of the deal from the get go and it was one of the tools that was used to get the pilots to bite off on it while they had a gun to their head. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Compass was created in bankruptcy, so yes, there were no pilots to come to terms with. But Mesaba, on the other hand...

Not only that, but DAL and NWA outsourced a similar number of 76-seat jets during bankruptcy. DAL just gave the flying away with no return. NWA still gave the flying away, but attached the flow to it. Personally, I think the NWA method was better.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Also, if Delta is one one the only majors hiring in the near future (probably true) that means that Comapass and Mesaba will be the only Regionals hiring in the near future. Interesting.

CAL will be hiring relatively soon.
American Eagle, Cape Air, Colgan and Great Lakes are all hiring now. ExpressJet and Pinnacle will all probably be hiring relatively soon. Mesa may even recall everyone and start hiring, as their attrition is increasing. I bet SkyWest will start hiring this year.

cliff
LFW