Delta and Compass Arrangement

[ASA_Aviator]

nope... only 20 compass pilots per month can flow!!

Well, it is per class also. I predict one big class the next time they hire. Delta doesn't like flow-through, and they will do whatever they can to combat it.

 

[Lear70]

Crap, I guess that college degree didn't help me out. :blush:

Heh heh... no worries, just thought it was funny in a thread that was referencing college degrees. Couldn't resist.

 

[Speedtape]

There is a "Flow-through" agreement with CPZ.
I suggest checking out their website though for the most updated information.

Is this going to be honored by Delta and the Delta Pilot group? Are they bound to it?

I can't imagine that Delta HR would allow this as they seem to control the process. My bet is that the Compass pilots will have to interview, just like anyone else, and they will have to meet the same requirements, just like anyone else. I would bet that they will not honor what they did not sign.

 

[Moustache]

Is this going to be honored by Delta and the Delta Pilot group? Are they bound to it?

I can't imagine that Delta HR would allow this as they seem to control the process. My bet is that the Compass pilots will have to interview, just like anyone else, and they will have to meet the same requirements, just like anyone else. I would bet that they will not honor what they did not sign.

I think this is what you want more that what you think will happen....

 

[Speedtape]

I think this is what you want more that what you think will happen....

I will not be impacted one way or the other, so what I want, has nothing to do with it. I think that is what will happen because I am very familiar with how Delta HR controls the process. It gets back to the question of "is Delta bound by that flow-through agreement?" My guess is that they will find a way around it, if they are. And if they are not, a Compass pilot will have the same shot as anyone else, if he is qualified and applies.

 

[Lear70]

My uneducated guess is that Delta is bound by that contract, just as they are bound by all the feeder contracts that Northwest had in place before the merger.

They could try to violate it, but would likely get sued in the process. Time will tell, though...

 

[DrewBlows]

Well, it is per class also. I predict one big class the next time they hire. Delta doesn't like flow-through, and they will do whatever they can to combat it.

Care to provide proof that "Delta doesn't like flow-though"?

 

[DrewBlows]

Is this going to be honored by Delta and the Delta Pilot group? Are they bound to it?

I can't imagine that Delta HR would allow this as they seem to control the process. My bet is that the Compass pilots will have to interview, just like anyone else, and they will have to meet the same requirements, just like anyone else. I would bet that they will not honor what they did not sign.

This has been covered many times but I'll summarize...

The Compass flow agreement is a binding four party contract between DALAPA, CPZALPA, Compass Airlines, and Delta Airlines.

Compass pilots are the first 20 pilots per month (after furloughs) in class at Delta. There is no interview and they don't have to have "Delta minimums" or a "four year degree" though they likely do.

Only 25% of the Compass seniority list can flow up in a rolling 12 month period.

Compass pilots must be Captains and must have been on payroll for 30 months in order to flow.

Up to 10% of the Compass seniority list can have 'super seniority' if they bypass flow-up, otherwise Delta flow downs are put on the top of the list.

There is probably more but that should cover most questions.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Care to provide proof that "Delta doesn't like flow-though"?

No.....

 

[Speedtape]

No.....

Yessssss

 

[Speedtape]

Care to provide proof that "Delta doesn't like flow-though"?

Sure! Prima facia evidence, past practice, and status quo reflect past behavior, which usually predicts future behavior. The Corporate philosophy and history reflects that HR exercises total control over the process and hires the profile they desire. Not all Pan Am employees were hired, including pilots. They had to interview, not all were hired. Not sure about the Western merger, but maybe somone with knowledge can weigh in on that one. Flow-throughs have been around a long time and up until now, Delta has never had one. The current Compass issue was one that NW and NW ALPA set up. I have not seen the agreement, but I am quite sure that most on this board have not seen it either. Usually, there are escape clauses built into contracts that can be non-binding on successors for obvious reasons. It could have been added before the merger as an addendum.

Maybe this will work out as you think. However, until it does, the agreement that you think you have is just a piece of paper with words on it. Ask the Eagle pilots how their flow through has worked out. From friends there, I have been told that the Company has reinterpreted it and that the intent from Eagle's perspective has never been achieved or honored.

Good luck and maybe all things will work out as you expect. But, to cover your bases, send in an application to airline apps, or you may be left holding the bag (a worthless piece of paper with words on it.) From pilot friends at the Mainline, this issue is a hot topic and may not be a sure thing for Compass pilots. I am being told that Mesaba has a piece of paper with an agreement between their pilots and Mesaba MGMT, which in no way binds any other party.

Just Say'n, beware of the proverbial "Carrot on a Stick!" and "believe it when you see it!" Until then, it's useless to argue it. Good Luck!

 

[mynameisjim]

If you look in the Delta ALPA library under contract language/LOA's, you'll find an LOA that Delta signed accepting all existing NWA LOAs, including 2006-10 and 2006-14 feeder hiring and flow through language. Delta also signed an LOA adapting the terms from the flow LOA to eliminate EDAP (an NWA thing) and change NWA to Delta.

So they signed something, none of us know what will happen until it happens

 

[Speedtape]

If you look in the Delta ALPA library under contract language/LOA's, you'll find an LOA that Delta signed accepting all existing NWA LOAs, including 2006-10 and 2006-14 feeder hiring and flow through language. Delta also signed an LOA adapting the terms from the flow LOA to eliminate EDAP (an NWA thing) and change NWA to Delta.

So they signed something, none of us know what will happen until it happens

Thanks. I will go look at that also. Maybe, it will work our for you. I guess that Fat Lady has to sing first.

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

While DAL doesn't technically have anyone on furlough, as a practical matter, both DAL and NWA had a couple of hundered people (each) on furlough bypass or voluntary leave (military, personal, etc).

They're going to need to spool the process to get those people called, trained and returned to the line. Even if the letters went out tomorrow, you'd be looking at Fall, minimum, before they're all spooled up and on the line.

Remember, DAL is still in the process of absorbing a huge traning surge caused by the integration...and only the first bid has occured, and the first people trained are only now starting to trickle out.

My guess is that interviewing MIGHT start in the summer, with an eye to start filling classes in the late fall as the last of the voluntary peeps makes it back.

300 is an absurd number that's been bounced around, so I will say probably no more than 150 for this year, and my personal guess is closer to 100...20 of which will CPZ and athother 10 or so from XJ. And we'll be damn glad to have them.

DAL has every intention of honoring the flow through. I have this on very good authority.

Nu

 

[porpilot]

This is the NWA old one. Don't have time to find the updated Delta one:

a. Offers to flow up will be in seniority order, provided that, in order to be eligible to flow up a pilot, must: (1) Be a captain, and (2) Have at least thirty (30) months on payroll at Compass Airlines (see Sections 7 A. and 14 A.1.c. for definition of “on payroll”; for purposes of this paragraph 22 D.3., a pilot shall be deemed to be on payroll while on military leave). b. The maximum number of Compass pilots flowing up to Northwest shall be: (1) twenty-five percent (25%) of the total pilot group over a rolling twelve (12) month period, and (2) no more than twenty (20) pilots per month. c. For purposes of determining the “total pilot group” in paragraph D.3.b.(1) above, the following methodology shall be used: (1) As of the first day of each month, the number of pilots on the Compass Pilots’ Seniority List on the first day of that month, excluding pilots on an extended illness or absence who have not stated a return date during that month, will be determined. (2) Twenty-five percent (25%) of this number will be the maximum number of pilots permitted to flow up under this Agreement over a rolling twelve (12) month period ending in the current month. Any fraction will be rounded to the next whole number. (3) The number of flow up pilots in the prior eleven (11) months will be determined. 22-4
Section 22 - Seniority July 26, 2007
(4) If the number calculated in subparagraph (3) above is less than the number calculated in subparagraph (2), then the difference (up to twenty (20)) shall be granted a right to flow up to Northwest. EXAMPLE: On March 1, 2011, there are three hundred sixty (360) pilots on the Seniority List. Over the prior eleven (11) months, a total of eighty (80) pilots flowed up to Northwest. The total of three hundred sixty (360) pilots multiplied by twenty-five (25%) equals ninety (90) pilots. 90-80 = 10. Ten (10) additional pilots are granted flow up rights to Northwest. d. A pilot, other than a furloughed Northwest pilot, who accepts flow up to Northwest may be held at Compass for up to three (3) months beyond his Northwest class date due to operational constraints at Compass, provided that Northwest Airlines has agreed that his Northwest system seniority date and EDAP at Northwest shall be the same dates as if he had commenced training on his original Northwest class date. EXCEPTION: A supervisory pilot who has held a supervisory pilot position for at least the prior year and who has accepted flow up to Northwest may be held at Compass for up to nine (9) months beyond his Northwest class date due to operational constraints, provided Northwest Airlines has agreed to handle the pilot’s NWA system seniority date and EDAP as provided in paragraph D.3.d. above. e. Compass pilots, including furloughed Northwest pilots at Compass, shall be released to flow up to Northwest in seniority order.

 

[Speedtape]

This is the NWA old one. Don't have time to find the updated Delta one:

a. Offers to flow up will be in seniority order, provided that, in order to be eligible to flow up a pilot, must: (1) Be a captain, and (2) Have at least thirty (30) months on payroll at Compass Airlines (see Sections 7 A. and 14 A.1.c. for definition of “on payroll”; for purposes of this paragraph 22 D.3., a pilot shall be deemed to be on payroll while on military leave). b. The maximum number of Compass pilots flowing up to Northwest shall be: (1) twenty-five percent (25%) of the total pilot group over a rolling twelve (12) month period, and (2) no more than twenty (20) pilots per month. c. For purposes of determining the “total pilot group” in paragraph D.3.b.(1) above, the following methodology shall be used: (1) As of the first day of each month, the number of pilots on the Compass Pilots’ Seniority List on the first day of that month, excluding pilots on an extended illness or absence who have not stated a return date during that month, will be determined. (2) Twenty-five percent (25%) of this number will be the maximum number of pilots permitted to flow up under this Agreement over a rolling twelve (12) month period ending in the current month. Any fraction will be rounded to the next whole number. (3) The number of flow up pilots in the prior eleven (11) months will be determined. 22-4
Section 22 - Seniority July 26, 2007
(4) If the number calculated in subparagraph (3) above is less than the number calculated in subparagraph (2), then the difference (up to twenty (20)) shall be granted a right to flow up to Northwest. EXAMPLE: On March 1, 2011, there are three hundred sixty (360) pilots on the Seniority List. Over the prior eleven (11) months, a total of eighty (80) pilots flowed up to Northwest. The total of three hundred sixty (360) pilots multiplied by twenty-five (25%) equals ninety (90) pilots. 90-80 = 10. Ten (10) additional pilots are granted flow up rights to Northwest. d. A pilot, other than a furloughed Northwest pilot, who accepts flow up to Northwest may be held at Compass for up to three (3) months beyond his Northwest class date due to operational constraints at Compass, provided that Northwest Airlines has agreed that his Northwest system seniority date and EDAP at Northwest shall be the same dates as if he had commenced training on his original Northwest class date. EXCEPTION: A supervisory pilot who has held a supervisory pilot position for at least the prior year and who has accepted flow up to Northwest may be held at Compass for up to nine (9) months beyond his Northwest class date due to operational constraints, provided Northwest Airlines has agreed to handle the pilot’s NWA system seniority date and EDAP as provided in paragraph D.3.d. above. e. Compass pilots, including furloughed Northwest pilots at Compass, shall be released to flow up to Northwest in seniority order.

Hmm! Follow me on this one, being the Devil's advocate.

Note: The interpretation is based solely on the above language. If there is something more, then the interpretation could change.

The first paragraph starts out with the word "offer." Wonder if Delta starts hiring, and there is no "offer." In other words, it sounds like there is nothing guaranteed, that it has to be "offered." There is nothing in this language that prevents the NWA, now Delta, from hiring from other sources and never hire from this pilot group. It clearly states that there has to be an "offer" under this agreement before the prescribed process has to be followed. It speaks more to the process that will be followed and never provides any guarantees of whether there will be an "offer," or that there are any priorites in hiring Compass pilots over any other pilot.

What the language really deals with is the creation of a methodical process that will take place if there is an "offer." In other words, should an "offer" be made, the process dictates pilot requirements to "qualify" to flow, and how many can flow in a given period of time so as not to deplete the staffing of this company. It is simply a process that "yokes" the pilots and regulates how, and the maximum number that can leave. It speaks nothing to any guarantees or priorites in the Delta hiring or the composite of their class, and how many if any Compass pilots would be in any new hire Delta class. This agreement simply dictates "how," and the maximum number of Compass pilots in a given period of time that can leave IF an "offer" is made. This benefits Compass.

In short, there is no mention to exclusitivity or priority in how NW, now Delta, has to hire in it's classes. Based on the language presented, Delta could hire XX number of classes of pilots and never make an "offer" to hire any Compass pilots under this agreement. Delta, even if bound, could never make an "offer", make one offer of "2", sprinkle a few "offers" here and there, or make "offers" however it chose.

At least in the language presented, there is nothing prescibed that required NWA, now Delta, to follow any required hiring numbers at Compass, in any priority in a Delta class. This agreement simply describes how qualifed pilots will leave in seniority order, and the maximums, not minimum required, allowed over a given period, IF an "offer" is made under this agreement.

 

[atpcliff]

hi!

i read elsewhere the 1st 20/month HAVE to be Compass, the next 5 HAVE to be Mesaba, and then new guys can be hired.

cliff
LFW

 

[Caveman]

No dog in this fight, but I read the word 'offer' as meaning just that: an offer. They are obligated to offer a spot at DAL but no one is obligated to accept it. They could choose to stay at Compass. I think you are reading too much into it.

 

[Speedtape]

hi!

i read elsewhere the 1st 20/month HAVE to be Compass, the next 5 HAVE to be Mesaba, and then new guys can be hired.

cliff
LFW

From what I read on APC, Mesaba pilots have an agreement only with their MGMT and no one else is bound. It sounds like the Mesaba MGMT simply signed a non binding agreement offering a flow through that has not obligated NWA, now Delta. Maybe, they are trying to blow sunshine. They are selling snake oil.

As far as the numbers you have stated, where could one find such an agreement?

 

[79%N1]

So if Delta hires 30 pilots per month (IF), then 25 of them will come from Compass and Mesaba, and 5 of their military buddies every month. Hmm. Seems like everyone from Comair, Skywest, ASA, Expressjet, Eagle, Republic, Trans States, Pinnacle, PSA and Piedmont are all now shut out from Delta. Pretty nice. Also, if Delta is one one the only majors hiring in the near future (probably true) that means that Comapass and Mesaba will be the only Regionals hiring in the near future. Interesting.

Cool for those guys, sucks for everyone else. It is kind of interesting that there will be a lot of more qualified guys bypassed at other airlines to allow guys at those companies to flow to their rightful slot at Delta. The life of the charmed.............