Delta/Alaska, alliance---then acquisition of Alaska?? Article

[General Lee]

WHAT?? No Delta pilot ex-wife/FA jokes about Alaska's tail art yet??? Get it together people!

I thought it was a portrait of Hillary Clinton? Take a look at it and you will see what I mean.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Please try to stay on your meds. Oh, BTW, where in ALPA merger policy does it say anything about category ratio? Just the sentence that says it please.

Why do you seem so comcerned with the SLI? I am sure the three arbitrators will listen to poor NWA, look at each other and say, " Yup, DALPA, slam dunked it. That is exactly what we were thinking. Who cares if almost ALL the NWA pilots lose 5-20% of their seniority for the rest of their ENTIRE CAREER. WHO CARES if the Delta pilots move up due to NWA Attrition, at the expense of the NWA guys. Yup, no windfall there. Everything for DALPA, nothing for NALPA"

Now stop gloating and start enjoy your new seniority and new found retirements. I'll keep flying my DC-9 with my new suit.

Hey, here is Noserider's chart. If you want to refute any of it, please try.


Here's a rough comparison of age 65 retirements (the only sure thing) through 2028.

NW DL
2013 70 60
2014 96 75
2015 167 89
2016 183 136
2017 199 157
2018 230 218
2019 256 272
2020 285 348
2021 295 478
2022 343 567
2023 314 549
2024 283 544
2025 182 472
2026 180 422
2027 152 318
2028 122 311

Using 5300 NW pilots and 7500 DL pilots.

Over 20 years: NW DL
Total 3357 5016
Percentage 63.3% 66.9%

Over 10 years:
Total 945 735
Percentage 17.8% 9.8%

Years 10-20 2019-2028
NW DL
Total 2412 4281
Percentage 45.5% 57.1%

A few observations:

- Higher percentage of NW retirements in first 10 years.

- Higher percentage of DL retirements in years 10-20 and beyond.

- NW pilots will benefit from access to a larger, higher paying fleet at integration (ex fences).

- DL pilots will be exposed to a generally smaller, lower paying fleet at integration as well as the oldest aircraft in the combined fleet.

- 10 year fences seem timed precisely to allow NW pilots take advantage of their retirements then share the large increase in DL retirements.

- Any dynamic system would have to allow NW pilots to benefit from their retirements then DL pilots to benefit from their's. We'd be looking at a 20-25 dynamic list, fighting over who gets what new equipment the whole way.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

.

I also remember a lot of testimony on how unfair DALPA idea of ratio is and how NALPA DOH is LESS HARMFUL to both sides, but time will tell. I don't think any NWALPA guy said Roberts wasn't the way to go, just maybe the fence length.

Here is the quote from the transcripts: The 744 Captain on the stand was commenting on a retired ex NALPA negotiator who he admired and knew from the Republic merger committee. Here he is asked to read from an article written by that retired negotiator:



A You want me to read it out loud?
4 Q Please.
5 A The third paragraph reads as follows, and
6 I quote: "If you have a limited time frame to
7 prepare, we would urge you to concentrate first on
8 the various cases involving Continental and to do so
9 in chronological order. Then for contrast, we would
10 suggest reviewing the Northwest/Republic
11 arbitrator's work to see how not to do it."



And did your guys want DOH or a ratioed list with Republic anyway? Here is from the transcript again:


14 A He and I were both on the Northwest merger
15 committee 1986 through 1990 representing the
16 Northwest pilots in the Republic proceeding.
17 Q By the way, in connection with that
18 proceeding, it was the Northwest pilots' position
19 that a date of hire list was not a proper list but
20 rather the ratio list was a proper list; correct?
21 A Our proposal was a ratioed list, yes


These transcripts are pretty easy to read, and don't really support DOH, since your own people didn't agree with it in past mergers.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[nwaredtail]

14 A He and I were both on the Northwest merger
15 committee 1986 through 1990 representing the
16 Northwest pilots in the Republic proceeding.
17 Q By the way, in connection with that
18 proceeding, it was the Northwest pilots' position
19 that a date of hire list was not a proper list but
20 rather the ratio list was a proper list; correct?
21 A Our proposal was a ratioed list, yes


These transcripts are pretty easy to read, and don't really support DOH, since your own people didn't agree with it in past mergers.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Wrong again, the greedy NW pilots wanted a ratioed list because it would have given them seniority and all the widebody equipment. Roberts saw how unfair and unequitable this was and awarded DOH with fences. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm, this has a familiar ring to it.

Results

Like I said, if y'all were merging with JB, your tune would be completely different. You would be screaming for date of hire.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

No staple. Get real. We would not even want DOH with them.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Fwiw,

Using the sn # I have from the equity page, I have moved up 180+ since the jan 1 list. How many retirements has dal had??? My guess is less than 10. Our guys have a pension and most are punching out.

 

[nwaredtail]

Fwiw,

Using the sn # I have from the equity page, I have moved up 180+ since the jan 1 list. How many retirements has dal had??? My guess is less than 10. Our guys have a pension and most are punching out.

The only thing that matters is what the DAL guys say, haven't you learned anything? The arbitrators will ignore all of the testimony from the experienced NWA team, look at the Nicalau award, and give them everything they asked for.

NWA retirements don't matter, parking DC-9's and 747's do matter, our orders don't matter but DAL's do, etc. I am just sorry we wasted so much dues money trying to get a fair award. At least I get to keep my 2250/month pension. That will be huge in 19 years.

 

[RedRum]

General,

Please realize that any sort of scedule change going forward is that of DELTA's doing.

There is a 747-400 in paint right now in Victorville, CA. These airplanes don't grow on threes. We don't have a spare to pick up the flying for which it was pulled.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE... just try to realize that any schedule changes going forward whether they are an increase or a decrease is a DELTA decision. I spoke with a Delta cpatian the other day and he stated, "We are just scared that NW is going to park DC9's." I politely replied, "You mean Delta may park some DC-9s?" After he threw me out of the flightdeck...just kidding. It was a cordial conversation, but we all need to agree to disagree on some things. Some Delta pilots refuse to understand that this ship is being steered by Delta now (be careful what you wish for) and all decisions about aircraft are that of the combined carrier.

Just my dos centavos

 

[General Lee]

Bye Bye--General Lee

Wrong again, the greedy NW pilots wanted a ratioed list because it would have given them seniority and all the widebody equipment. Roberts saw how unfair and unequitable this was and awarded DOH with fences. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm, this has a familiar ring to it.

Results

Like I said, if y'all were merging with JB, your tune would be completely different. You would be screaming for date of hire.

JB and DL are not even close in size, and JB was started in '98. Relative seniority would never happen. Also, as I stated before, any arbitrator would look at what they bring to the table, and place people into spots where their current largest plane would fit. JB has A320s as the biggest plane, which would fit in near our 738 or MD90. The number 1 JB guy hired in 98 would fit in close to a DL Captain on one of those two planes, which was hired around 1998. You and I know that is how it would be done.


And as far as the ratioed award your ex NWA negotiators wanted (so nice of them!), the lead negotiator, the one this current one admired, pointed out that the Roberts award should be looked at how NOT to do things. Did you not read that part? Selective reading is something you guys do well. I doubt Bloch will do that. Roberts saw how inequitable your proposal was (and still is today!), and saw that you guys were asking for everything (sounds familiar), and it looks like you guys haven't learned anything from history. If you can find some supporting testimony from the hearings for your views, I would love to see it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

General,

Please realize that any sort of scedule change going forward is that of DELTA's doing.

There is a 747-400 in paint right now in Victorville, CA. These airplanes don't grow on threes. We don't have a spare to pick up the flying for which it was pulled.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE... just try to realize that any schedule changes going forward whether they are an increase or a decrease is a DELTA decision. I spoke with a Delta cpatian the other day and he stated, "We are just scared that NW is going to park DC9's." I politely replied, "You mean Delta may park some DC-9s?" After he threw me out of the flightdeck...just kidding. It was a cordial conversation, but we all need to agree to disagree on some things. Some Delta pilots refuse to understand that this ship is being steered by Delta now (be careful what you wish for) and all decisions about aircraft are that of the combined carrier.

Just my dos centavos

So, NWA never thought about parking any DC9s on their own? (Steenland stated there would be 41 larger DC9s left after the parkings of the DC9-30s) Now that that has changed, that would be DL's decision as you say. But, NWA had plans to cut a lot. They also parked 10 757s and gave them to Fedex, along with some A319s recently (parked, not sold to Fedex obviously). There is a plan for the 742s, and I am sure they are part of those "confidential" transcripts we can't read. I did see that one 742 was contracted by CRAF for 1 extra year, which is good, but I haven't seen anything yet on the cargo ops. I hope it sticks around, but that airplane for cargo is slowly losing it's luster. Only Connie and a select few still use it, and almost all are switching to the 744. If we do that too, it will still be a loss of positions.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Fly4hire]

General,

Please realize that any sort of scedule change going forward is that of DELTA's doing.

There is a 747-400 in paint right now in Victorville, CA. These airplanes don't grow on threes. We don't have a spare to pick up the flying for which it was pulled.

You realize of course this logic will be twisted against us. First we should be disadvantaged in SLI because these aircraft are all supposedly going to be parked. Then if they are not, it because DAL decided not to, therefore they saved our jobs, and they are now post merger acft and will be credited towards the DAL side, or so the story will go. BTW, have they issued the yellow Star of David's yet to wear on our DBJ's?

 

[General Lee]

You realize of course this logic will be twisted against us. First we should be disadvantaged in SLI because these aircraft are all supposedly going to be parked. Then if they are not, it because DAL decided not to, therefore they saved our jobs, and they are now post merger acft and will be credited towards the DAL side, or so the story will go. BTW, have they issued the yellow Star of David's yet to wear on our DBJ's?

C'mon now. We think the 744s are great, and you will get to fly them for whatever time is set, just like our guys flying our 777s (your greenbooks are licking their chops....). I think some of us are concerned with the DC9s and 742s, and if they are staying longer than planned, great. If they are not, then that is a problem, and to think that your management was NOT going to park any (wrong, Steenland stated as much prior to the DCC), then you are wrong. If you bring older planes to the table, don't think they will stay forever, and the 742Fs are on the way out at most modern cargo carriers, especially flying Asia. Senior people fly them, and that could concern a lot of people here. We are adding a lot of NEW planes (6-8 new 777s next year alone, along with 737-700s), and there are interesting things going on that may add even more. The reasons you claim you are being disadvantaged in the SLI (attrition---never been used before and we have more retirements in the long run compared to you guys, and relative seniority or ratios---something you guys have used or tried to use in all of your other merger talks) don't really hold water. Again, we'll have to see what happens, since a negotiated settlement doesn't look likely.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[nwaredtail]

Ok general, explain something simple to me then. If NWA stood alone, I was set to retire number 37 (.007%) at age 60 and in the top 500(10%) my last 7 years, pretty nice.

Under DAL's proposal, I initailly lose 8% seniority and the highest I would get is around 2200 (17%) at age 60.

Without answering a question with a question, or talking about NWA's proposal (even though most DAL pilots would be better off in 5 years), tell me how this is a good deal for me.

 

[ClearRight]

My crystal ball shows Skywest SEA, PDX and LAX RJ bases flying the lean mid-haul routes as "Delta Connection" feeding Alaska, Horizon's RJs gone, the Q400 flies the high-frequency and short-haul runs.

 

[General Lee]

Ok general, explain something simple to me then. If NWA stood alone, I was set to retire number 37 (.007%) at age 60 and in the top 500(10%) my last 7 years, pretty nice.

Under DAL's proposal, I initailly lose 8% seniority and the highest I would get is around 2200 (17%) at age 60.

Without answering a question with a question, or talking about NWA's proposal (even though most DAL pilots would be better off in 5 years), tell me how this is a good deal for me.

Tell that to the USAir East pilot who had 17 years at USAir and then ended up next to the bottom newhire at AWA. Mergers can screw with those numbers. If oil had stayed at high numbers, all the airlines could have dumped every unprofitable route, and we all could have been out of jobs. Things change. As far as mergers go, the fairest thing out there on two like sized companies is to make sure nobody gets a windfall, with QOL or pay. That sounds a lot like staying about where you are in the new company compared to where you were. If you were a reserve capatain, and then out of nowhere could hold a line on a larger plane, that is a windfall. Your 10 year fence stance was created for a reason, as Noserider stated in his retiremement chart and observations below it.

Now I looked at your future percentages, and do you plan on going out at 60 or 65? What will your percentage be at 65? I know NALPA said there would be a lot of people leaving now or after the DCC, but with the economy tanking and their other income (other than the pension), like their 401Ks, also tanking, many may stay longer. If I were you, I would plan for 65, and hopefully have enough to leave earlier. Also, you said you would lose 8% seniority with DALPA's proposal. How is that? If we placed your bottom 400 on the bottom of the combined list, then we on our side would only increase 2% from our current percentage (relative). That would mean you would be down 2% from your current percentage. If you are at the 75% now, you would be at the 77% with our proposal. I can't see your 8% loss.


Bye Bye--General Lee