Delta/Alaska, alliance---then acquisition of Alaska?? Article

[General Lee]

Kinda like the DAL boys would "love" relative seniority if they merged with JetBlue.

We all know like sized companies are different, and career expectations too. If your fleet only has A320s or smaller, there is no way any arbitrator would award them anything larger, and they would look at how old the company was etc. Also, ALPA merger policy (you know, the one that doesn't have DOH) also says no to windfalls, so pay rates are also taken into consideration. Since Alaska is an ALPA carrier, the same would apply---the 739 is the largest plane they have. Jetblue, not being an ALPA carrier, would have some sort of protection thanks to the Bond Ammendment, but not necessarily the same protections as another ALPA carrier.... You know that..... Also, I thought you would like this article and particular paragraph about Delta cancelling a couple flights.....When did you say you had heard about those cancellations? Hauenstein just announced them. Do you know any future lottery numbers? Wait, you just won the lottery, Delta bought you guys!




Delta unveils new 2009 flights with eye toward integrating NWA

Thursday November 13, 2008
Delta Air Lines and Northwest Airlines, which closed their merger last month, said they are aiming to integrate their flight schedule by next summer as DL unveiled new flights intended to increase connectivity between the two networks and expand its global reach.

DL plans to launch 15 new international routes in June to coincide with the network integration. It will start daily 777-200ER flights between JFK and Tokyo Narita as well as five-times-weekly A330-200 Salt Lake City-NRT and daily 757-200 NRT-Ho Chi Min services. It will add a second-daily Atlanta-NRT flight on May 4.

"We want to plug in Delta's massive access on the East Coast to Northwest's transpacific strength," Executive VP-Network Planning and Revenue Management Glen Hauenstein said. He told reporters in a conference call yesterday that the new DL intends to keep all current DL and NWA hubs operating as hubs, creating "a stronger platform to take customers from all over the United States to destinations around the globe" (ATWOnline, Oct. 31).

New DL flights to Africa from ATL will go to Johannesburg (daily on a 777-200LR), Nairobi (four-times-weekly on a 767-300ER), Monrovia (weekly on a 757-200ER), Abuja (twice-weekly on a 757-200ER), Luanda (twice-weekly on a 757-200ER), Malabo (weekly on a 757-200ER) and Cape Town (thrice-weekly on a 767-300ER). It also will launch five-times-weekly JFK-Lagos 767-300ER flights.

New DL flights from JFK to Europe will comprise Gothenburg Landvetter (four-times-weekly on a 757-200ER), Prague (thrice-weekly on a 767-300), Valencia (four-times-weekly on a 757-200ER) and Zurich (daily for the summer season aboard 757-200ERs). It will add a second four-times-weekly flight between JFK and Tel Aviv on June 30.

Additionally, NWA revealed yesterday that it will drop Detroit-Paris Charles de Gaulle flights in January and DTW-Osaka Kansai on Feb. 28. Hauenstein noted that SkyTeam partner Air France operates DTW-CDG and that DL will launch NRT-Osaka flights next year.

It said starting in January it will boost "hub-to-hub" capacity by 14.5% by operating both additional flights and larger aircraft between Atlanta, Detroit, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Cincinnati, Salt Lake City, New York JFK and Memphis. It plans to replace "select regional jet flights with mainline equipment" on flights from ATL to MEM, MSP, CVG and DTW. It also will add a third-daily SLC-DTW flight and launch daily SLC-MEM and JFK-MEM services



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[nwaredtail]

We all know like sized companies are different, and career expectations too. If your fleet only has A320s or smaller, there is no way any arbitrator would award them anything larger, and they would look at how old the company was etc. Also, ALPA merger policy (you know, the one that doesn't have DOH) also says no to windfalls, so pay rates are also taken into consideration. Since Alaska is an ALPA carrier, the same would apply---the 739 is the largest plane they have. Jetblue, not being an ALPA carrier, would have some sort of protection thanks to the Bond Ammendment, but not necessarily the same protections as another ALPA carrier.... You know that..... Also, I thought you would like this article and particular paragraph about Delta cancelling a couple flights.....When did you say you had heard about those cancellations? Hauenstein just announced them. Do you know any future lottery numbers? Wait, you just won the lottery, Delta bought you guys!




Delta unveils new 2009 flights with eye toward integrating NWA

Thursday November 13, 2008
Delta Air Lines and Northwest Airlines, which closed their merger last month, said they are aiming to integrate their flight schedule by next summer as DL unveiled new flights intended to increase connectivity between the two networks and expand its global reach.

DL plans to launch 15 new international routes in June to coincide with the network integration. It will start daily 777-200ER flights between JFK and Tokyo Narita as well as five-times-weekly A330-200 Salt Lake City-NRT and daily 757-200 NRT-Ho Chi Min services. It will add a second-daily Atlanta-NRT flight on May 4.

"We want to plug in Delta's massive access on the East Coast to Northwest's transpacific strength," Executive VP-Network Planning and Revenue Management Glen Hauenstein said. He told reporters in a conference call yesterday that the new DL intends to keep all current DL and NWA hubs operating as hubs, creating "a stronger platform to take customers from all over the United States to destinations around the globe" (ATWOnline, Oct. 31).

New DL flights to Africa from ATL will go to Johannesburg (daily on a 777-200LR), Nairobi (four-times-weekly on a 767-300ER), Monrovia (weekly on a 757-200ER), Abuja (twice-weekly on a 757-200ER), Luanda (twice-weekly on a 757-200ER), Malabo (weekly on a 757-200ER) and Cape Town (thrice-weekly on a 767-300ER). It also will launch five-times-weekly JFK-Lagos 767-300ER flights.

New DL flights from JFK to Europe will comprise Gothenburg Landvetter (four-times-weekly on a 757-200ER), Prague (thrice-weekly on a 767-300), Valencia (four-times-weekly on a 757-200ER) and Zurich (daily for the summer season aboard 757-200ERs). It will add a second four-times-weekly flight between JFK and Tel Aviv on June 30.

Additionally, NWA revealed yesterday that it will drop Detroit-Paris Charles de Gaulle flights in January and DTW-Osaka Kansai on Feb. 28. Hauenstein noted that SkyTeam partner Air France operates DTW-CDG and that DL will launch NRT-Osaka flights next year.

It said starting in January it will boost "hub-to-hub" capacity by 14.5% by operating both additional flights and larger aircraft between Atlanta, Detroit, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Cincinnati, Salt Lake City, New York JFK and Memphis. It plans to replace "select regional jet flights with mainline equipment" on flights from ATL to MEM, MSP, CVG and DTW. It also will add a third-daily SLC-DTW flight and launch daily SLC-MEM and JFK-MEM services



Bye Bye--General Lee

Please try to stay on your meds. Oh, BTW, where in ALPA merger policy does it say anything about category ratio? Just the sentence that says it please.

Why do you seem so comcerned with the SLI? I am sure the three arbitrators will listen to poor NWA, look at each other and say, " Yup, DALPA, slam dunked it. That is exactly what we were thinking. Who cares if almost ALL the NWA pilots lose 5-20% of their seniority for the rest of their ENTIRE CAREER. WHO CARES if the Delta pilots move up due to NWA Attrition, at the expense of the NWA guys. Yup, no windfall there. Everything for DALPA, nothing for NALPA"

Now stop gloating and start enjoy your new seniority and new found retirements. I'll keep flying my DC-9 with my new suit.

 

[General Lee]

Please try to stay on your meds. Oh, BTW, where in ALPA merger policy does it say anything about category ratio? Just the sentence that says it please.

Why do you seem so comcerned with the SLI? I am sure the three arbitrators will listen to poor NWA, look at each other and say, " Yup, DALPA, slam dunked it. That is exactly what we were thinking. Who cares if almost ALL the NWA pilots lose 5-20% of their seniority for the rest of their ENTIRE CAREER. WHO CARES if the Delta pilots move up due to NWA Attrition, at the expense of the NWA guys. Yup, no windfall there. Everything for DALPA, nothing for NALPA"

Now stop gloating and start enjoy your new seniority and new found retirements. I'll keep flying my DC-9 with my new suit.

Stay on my meds? Have you seen how expensive my (and now your) medical plan is? Sheesh.

As far as ratios go vs DOH, I think the ALPA merger policy doesn't say much about either, but DOH is harder to accept for any like sized company with equal histories, and ratios have been used by most companies depending on what they are bringing to the table. Testimony I frequently point out on this forum from your witnesses explicitly state that ratios are the way to go, and the Roberts award type demand is NOT the way to go. I didn't testify to that, THEY DID, or pointed out what people they admired actually stated.

As far as attrition goes, you know as well as I do that it has never been used in any SLI. We are both losing a lot of pilots in the future, and the chart Noserider76 supplied showed we at Delta lose more pilots than you do in future years. Some of the years we will shed over 500 pilots from our side alone, for consequtive years. That is good for you and me. Also, the numbers NALPA tried to show that would retire before the DCC never really materialized, even if the DCC date was a secret until it happened. It surprised us all, but your guys had plenty of time to retire before that point. They never did in mass.

I have not gloated about anything with the SLI, since I do not know the outcome. I hope it is fair. And, you finally will get the "ooohs and ahhhs" from all of the ladies when you start wearing our uniform.(the ladies may actually be over 70 years old) You might even get some salutes from ex Russian military types. And your DC9s (the ones that remain, hopefully a lot of them) will look great in the new Delta paint scheme.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[nwaredtail]

Testimony I frequently point out on this forum from your witnesses explicitly state that ratios are the way to go, and the Roberts award type demand is NOT the way to go. I didn't testify to that, THEY DID, or pointed out what people they admired actually stated

.

I also remember a lot of testimony on how unfair DALPA idea of ratio is and how NALPA DOH is LESS HARMFUL to both sides, but time will tell. I don't think any NWALPA guy said Roberts wasn't the way to go, just maybe the fence length.

 

[TOOL CRIB]

WHAT?? No Delta pilot ex-wife/FA jokes about Alaska's tail art yet??? Get it together people!

 

[General Lee]

WHAT?? No Delta pilot ex-wife/FA jokes about Alaska's tail art yet??? Get it together people!

I thought it was a portrait of Hillary Clinton? Take a look at it and you will see what I mean.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Please try to stay on your meds. Oh, BTW, where in ALPA merger policy does it say anything about category ratio? Just the sentence that says it please.

Why do you seem so comcerned with the SLI? I am sure the three arbitrators will listen to poor NWA, look at each other and say, " Yup, DALPA, slam dunked it. That is exactly what we were thinking. Who cares if almost ALL the NWA pilots lose 5-20% of their seniority for the rest of their ENTIRE CAREER. WHO CARES if the Delta pilots move up due to NWA Attrition, at the expense of the NWA guys. Yup, no windfall there. Everything for DALPA, nothing for NALPA"

Now stop gloating and start enjoy your new seniority and new found retirements. I'll keep flying my DC-9 with my new suit.

Hey, here is Noserider's chart. If you want to refute any of it, please try.


Here's a rough comparison of age 65 retirements (the only sure thing) through 2028.

NW DL
2013 70 60
2014 96 75
2015 167 89
2016 183 136
2017 199 157
2018 230 218
2019 256 272
2020 285 348
2021 295 478
2022 343 567
2023 314 549
2024 283 544
2025 182 472
2026 180 422
2027 152 318
2028 122 311

Using 5300 NW pilots and 7500 DL pilots.

Over 20 years: NW DL
Total 3357 5016
Percentage 63.3% 66.9%

Over 10 years:
Total 945 735
Percentage 17.8% 9.8%

Years 10-20 2019-2028
NW DL
Total 2412 4281
Percentage 45.5% 57.1%

A few observations:

- Higher percentage of NW retirements in first 10 years.

- Higher percentage of DL retirements in years 10-20 and beyond.

- NW pilots will benefit from access to a larger, higher paying fleet at integration (ex fences).

- DL pilots will be exposed to a generally smaller, lower paying fleet at integration as well as the oldest aircraft in the combined fleet.

- 10 year fences seem timed precisely to allow NW pilots take advantage of their retirements then share the large increase in DL retirements.

- Any dynamic system would have to allow NW pilots to benefit from their retirements then DL pilots to benefit from their's. We'd be looking at a 20-25 dynamic list, fighting over who gets what new equipment the whole way.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

.

I also remember a lot of testimony on how unfair DALPA idea of ratio is and how NALPA DOH is LESS HARMFUL to both sides, but time will tell. I don't think any NWALPA guy said Roberts wasn't the way to go, just maybe the fence length.

Here is the quote from the transcripts: The 744 Captain on the stand was commenting on a retired ex NALPA negotiator who he admired and knew from the Republic merger committee. Here he is asked to read from an article written by that retired negotiator:



A You want me to read it out loud?
4 Q Please.
5 A The third paragraph reads as follows, and
6 I quote: "If you have a limited time frame to
7 prepare, we would urge you to concentrate first on
8 the various cases involving Continental and to do so
9 in chronological order. Then for contrast, we would
10 suggest reviewing the Northwest/Republic
11 arbitrator's work to see how not to do it."



And did your guys want DOH or a ratioed list with Republic anyway? Here is from the transcript again:


14 A He and I were both on the Northwest merger
15 committee 1986 through 1990 representing the
16 Northwest pilots in the Republic proceeding.
17 Q By the way, in connection with that
18 proceeding, it was the Northwest pilots' position
19 that a date of hire list was not a proper list but
20 rather the ratio list was a proper list; correct?
21 A Our proposal was a ratioed list, yes


These transcripts are pretty easy to read, and don't really support DOH, since your own people didn't agree with it in past mergers.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[nwaredtail]

14 A He and I were both on the Northwest merger
15 committee 1986 through 1990 representing the
16 Northwest pilots in the Republic proceeding.
17 Q By the way, in connection with that
18 proceeding, it was the Northwest pilots' position
19 that a date of hire list was not a proper list but
20 rather the ratio list was a proper list; correct?
21 A Our proposal was a ratioed list, yes


These transcripts are pretty easy to read, and don't really support DOH, since your own people didn't agree with it in past mergers.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Wrong again, the greedy NW pilots wanted a ratioed list because it would have given them seniority and all the widebody equipment. Roberts saw how unfair and unequitable this was and awarded DOH with fences. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm, this has a familiar ring to it.

Results

Like I said, if y'all were merging with JB, your tune would be completely different. You would be screaming for date of hire.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

No staple. Get real. We would not even want DOH with them.