Delta aggressive with it's regional partners

[JumpersAway]

It is fact- the regional hay day is over. What will happen over the next 8 years will be a MAJOR shift in doctrine from fee for departure, to code share and merge. I'm absolutely certain we will transform into a stand alone carrier at some point. The question is only a matter of when. Skywest Inc. knows the Indy thing isn't going to work. They are going to purchase a brand in distress. Think it's odd or far fetched????? USAirways and American are looking for dance partners. Think about this for a sec- American (already on the financial gallows) files for bankruptcy and Skywest moves in for the deal. Buys AMR, and divests Eagle. Our own 50 seat aircraft feed the beast, and attrition keeps labor costs low. Instant, turn key international route structure with a recognized stand alone brand.Competent and smart management tallent would make this work. Although I don't always agree with what they do, it is a fact that the management at Skywest Inc. will make money. Although seemingly far fetched, it's but one of the many possibilities. Skywest Inc. is too savvy to just wither away and die.........it will survive, albeit in different form.

 

[johnpeace]

Skywest Inc. is too savvy to just wither away and die.........it will survive, albeit in different form.

That's the basis of my thoughts about the whole thing...and I'm with you, there's really no limit to the insane twists and turns the industry can take.

Eh...I don't think SKYW can afford to buy AMR, no matter how deep in bankruptcy they are...though that would create an interesting change in the playing field.

Whatever, I'm keeping my piece on the game board simply because there are enough imaginable scenarios that will follow the coming season of massive change that represent an opportunity for our situation to get a lot better.

<shrug>

Guess we'll see....

 

[JoeMerchant]

It is fact- the regional hay day is over. What will happen over the next 8 years will be a MAJOR shift in doctrine from fee for departure, to code share and merge. I'm absolutely certain we will transform into a stand alone carrier at some point. The question is only a matter of when. Skywest Inc. knows the Indy thing isn't going to work. They are going to purchase a brand in distress. Think it's odd or far fetched????? USAirways and American are looking for dance partners. Think about this for a sec- American (already on the financial gallows) files for bankruptcy and Skywest moves in for the deal. Buys AMR, and divests Eagle. Our own 50 seat aircraft feed the beast, and attrition keeps labor costs low. Instant, turn key international route structure with a recognized stand alone brand.Competent and smart management tallent would make this work. Although I don't always agree with what they do, it is a fact that the management at Skywest Inc. will make money. Although seemingly far fetched, it's but one of the many possibilities. Skywest Inc. is too savvy to just wither away and die.........it will survive, albeit in different form.

I agree. Because of this, a major focus in our JCBA negotiations should be scope/successorship/fragmentation language. If the above situation does transpire through Skywest Inc., there is no guarantee right now that it will include ASA/XJET pilots...Something to think about.....

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Seriously. How smart does someone have to be to succeed with the lucrative FFD contracts handed out in the last 10 years or so? All they needed was a compliant pilot group and puppy mills. Nothing exceptional about that. Running a global airline with career employees is a tad harder.

It is fact- the regional hay day is over. What will happen over the next 8 years will be a MAJOR shift in doctrine from fee for departure, to code share and merge. I'm absolutely certain we will transform into a stand alone carrier at some point. The question is only a matter of when. Skywest Inc. knows the Indy thing isn't going to work. They are going to purchase a brand in distress. Think it's odd or far fetched????? USAirways and American are looking for dance partners. Think about this for a sec- American (already on the financial gallows) files for bankruptcy and Skywest moves in for the deal. Buys AMR, and divests Eagle. Our own 50 seat aircraft feed the beast, and attrition keeps labor costs low. Instant, turn key international route structure with a recognized stand alone brand.Competent and smart management tallent would make this work. Although I don't always agree with what they do, it is a fact that the management at Skywest Inc. will make money. Although seemingly far fetched, it's but one of the many possibilities. Skywest Inc. is too savvy to just wither away and die.........it will survive, albeit in different form.

 

[Jon Rivoli]

Seriously. How smart does someone have to be to succeed with the lucrative FFD contracts handed out in the last 10 years or so? All they needed was a compliant pilot group and puppy mills. Nothing exceptional about that. Running a global airline with career employees is a tad harder.

It proved to be too much for Johnny O at MESA.

Before you go dismissing SkyWest, the combined operation is over 700 airplanes and is the third largest carrier in the world by number of operation per day; more than Unical, more than Delta.

 

[On Your Six]

It proved to be too much for Johnny O at MESA.

Before you go dismissing SkyWest, the combined operation is over 700 airplanes and is the third largest carrier in the world by number of operation per day; more than Unical, more than Delta.

Yes but 50 seaters will be departing the fleet sooner than later, and both mainline pilot groups at Unical and Delta are UNLIKELY to ALLOW you to have more 70/76 seaters, or anything larger. Most mainline pilots want a piece of your 70/76 seat flying too. And before you say senior guys don't care, try to remember that commuting on RJs stinks, even for them, and real senior guys are and will be leaving shortly for good. Don't expect any wiggle room from mainline pilots. But, maybe more mainline jobs will open with those retirements on the way.


OYS

 

[homerjdispatch]

Sex, Seniority, salary.... in that order... So if that scope will get you some action, better seniority, or more pay, you will NOT go after scope...

 

[On Your Six]

Sex, Seniority, salary.... in that order... So if that scope will get you some action, better seniority, or more pay, you will NOT go after scope...

Keep hoping for that, it won't happen. Regionals will only grow by mergers, and then continue to shrink it seems.

OYS

 

[homerjdispatch]

Keep hoping for that, it won't happen. Regionals will only grow by mergers, and then continue to shrink it seems.

OYS

So you can honestly say, you would NOT give up scope for a payraise? Gotta raise the BS flag on that. Every single person on here would sell out for a raise. The trick management plays is finding the magical raise amount to satify a majority.



BTW i think I should have the Burns avatar and you should have homer in this discussion!

 

["v"]

I've got a CVG to MSY this week. 700 miles. I can't remember the lat time I flew the 200 that far!

Or 1000nm tp kansas city from philadelphia!

 

[on autopilot]

Yea, Comair knows all about how aggressive Delta can be.

 

[dojetdriver]

Very true and, moreover, also very true of senior regional pilots.

Indeed.

And before you say senior guys don't care, try to remember that commuting on RJs stinks, even for them, and real senior guys are and will be leaving shortly for good. Don't expect any wiggle room from mainline pilots. But, maybe more mainline jobs will open with those retirements on the way.


OYS

I'll reiterate my previous points, pilot have serious cases of amnesia and a tendency to forget the mistakes they've made in the past.

If that senior guy gets a big fat paycheck and/or an enhanced retirement plan, that commute on the RJ won't seem so bad. Just like it did for him in the 90's, or in the contracts of 2000/2001

And I'll repeat another point, if the retirement package in enhanced, it will definitely have an impact on how the top half of the seniority demographics vote. Especially with the paycuts, as well the carriers that lost retirement plans.

You can argue round and round if you wish how legacy guys are going to stand strong on scope. And that's fine. But again, I'll believe it when I see it. The track record isn't so stellar you know.

 

[bri5150]

Indeed.



I'll reiterate my previous points, pilot have serious cases of amnesia and a tendency to forget the mistakes they've made in the past.

If that senior guy gets a big fat paycheck and/or an enhanced retirement plan, that commute on the RJ won't seem so bad. Just like it did for him in the 90's, or in the contracts of 2000/2001

And I'll repeat another point, if the retirement package in enhanced, it will definitely have an impact on how the top half of the seniority demographics vote. Especially with the paycuts, as well the carriers that lost retirement plans.

You can argue round and round if you wish how legacy guys are going to stand strong on scope. And that's fine. But again, I'll believe it when I see it. The track record isn't so stellar you know.

I honestly don't blame them. What would most people do if they said "Here, I will give you $500k (I am making up the number) if you vote this way. It will not affect you in the least, and there is nothing 'immoral' about it"? There are some that may talk big, but I would have a hard time passing up that cash. Don't get me wrong, I hope they don't vote for more scope relaxation, but as the quote above says, I will believe it when I see it.

 

[General Lee]

Indeed.



I'll reiterate my previous points, pilot have serious cases of amnesia and a tendency to forget the mistakes they've made in the past.

If that senior guy gets a big fat paycheck and/or an enhanced retirement plan, that commute on the RJ won't seem so bad. Just like it did for him in the 90's, or in the contracts of 2000/2001

And I'll repeat another point, if the retirement package in enhanced, it will definitely have an impact on how the top half of the seniority demographics vote. Especially with the paycuts, as well the carriers that lost retirement plans.

You can argue round and round if you wish how legacy guys are going to stand strong on scope. And that's fine. But again, I'll believe it when I see it. The track record isn't so stellar you know.

What you seem to not understand is that many mainline pilots will NEVER forget. Delta furloughed 1310 pilots. United over 2000. It goes on and on. A lot of them are back now, and a lot of them express their disdain of RJs frequently. OYS was one of those furloughed, at UAL. Those furloughs and fleet parkings (DL parked L1011s, 727s, etc after 9-11, right when RJs started to get "popular" to management, but not to frequent business travellers) also caused many people to downgrade to smaller planes, and the widebody Captains of today were probably knocked down a notch too back then. They all remember, and throwing cash at the issue just won't do it this time, or any time in the future. Those 1310 pilots that are now back will also be senior someday, and watching the proliferation of RJs while you are on the street just doesn't wipe away easily. That is something you can't seem to comprehend, probably because you were a part of that proliferation, and now you are seeing the slide downwards.

Another thing you are missing, is that you don't always have to GIVE something in contract negotiations to GET something. Most legacies are still on BK type contracts, and managements know they will be giving a lot of stuff back, which is also called restoration. Even with higher oil (which has come back down a bit in the last week), the airlines are profitable because fare hikes for oil have stuck. Even with a Q1 loss, many are expecting large profits for Q2 and 3. Profitable mainlines often means non profitable regionals, and regionals who won't be getting any more large RJs.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I honestly don't blame them. What would most people do if they said "Here, I will give you $500k (I am making up the number) if you vote this way. It will not affect you in the least, and there is nothing 'immoral' about it"? There are some that may talk big, but I would have a hard time passing up that cash. Don't get me wrong, I hope they don't vote for more scope relaxation, but as the quote above says, I will believe it when I see it.

There was no relaxation in the joint contract between DL/NWA (there has always been a cap or limit on 70-76 seaters), and Unical ALPA is now going after some of that very flying.

The higher pay is coming regardless now, since Airtran (once a very low cost carrier with lower pay scales) is now going to get SWA payscales. That is good for every Mainline, since that is one less LCC the managements can compare against.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[bri5150]

There was no relaxation in the joint contract between DL/NWA (there has always been a cap or limit on 70-76 seaters), and Unical ALPA is now going after some of that very flying.

The higher pay is coming regardless now, since Airtran (once a very low cost carrier with lower pay scales) is now going to get SWA payscales. That is good for every Mainline, since that is one less LCC the managements can compare against.


Bye Bye---General Lee

I hope you are right. I want out of this god forsaken airline.

 

[On Your Six]

So you can honestly say, you would NOT give up scope for a payraise? Gotta raise the BS flag on that. Every single person on here would sell out for a raise. The trick management plays is finding the magical raise amount to satify a majority.



BTW i think I should have the Burns avatar and you should have homer in this discussion!

Legacies still have concessionary contracts. Again, who says you have to give up anything? Tighter scope and pay raises are a part of the agenda.


OYS

 

[Baronman]

Another thing you are missing, is that you don't always have to GIVE something in contract negotiations to GET something. Most legacies are still on BK type contracts, and managements know they will be giving a lot of stuff back, which is also called restoration.

Bye Bye---General Lee

http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/19/news/companies/jeff_smisek_united_continental.fortune/index.htm

Have a glance at what the CEO of the worlds largest airline thinks...At least in public he's disagreeing that "they will be giving a lot of stuff back." Specifically read the paragraphs following the header "Video: Why Smisek Reads All his Emails."

 

[On Your Six]

http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/19/news/companies/jeff_smisek_united_continental.fortune/index.htm

Have a glance at what the CEO of the worlds largest airline thinks...At least in public he's disagreeing that "they will be giving a lot of stuff back." Specifically read the paragraphs following the header "Video: Why Smisek Reads All his Emails."

Of course the CEO won't say that in public, but he wants labor peace and cooperation in the Single Operating Certificate, so he'll change his mind, or else he may wind up with the next USAir. Those UAL and CAL pilots won't take his crap either. This will be an ugly Summer if negotiations stall even longer. So far Delta and ALPA worked well together on SOC, and we'll see if that translates into faster negotiations for Delta pilots.



OYS

 

[Homer Jay]

So you can honestly say, you would NOT give up scope for a payraise? Gotta raise the BS flag on that. Every single person on here would sell out for a raise. The trick management plays is finding the magical raise amount to satify a majority.



BTW i think I should have the Burns avatar and you should have homer in this discussion!

HA HA HA!!! Are you serious?? If you honestly believe this, then you are WAY out of touch. EVERY captain I fly with and pilot I talk to have all said the same thing. There is NO amount of money worth relaxing scope. The General is right. The lessons have been learned, even by the super senior that sold out the young years ago, that scope is everything. What good is a big raise if it further eliminates major airline jobs thus forcing people out of their seats, equipment, or even an active position on the seniority list? It's not happening this time...or ever again.

Homer