Delay Gear Extension in icing?

[Nack55]

We drag the brakes a bit on before takeoff to warm them up, then leave them down a little longer to get the slush off. On landing, same procedure as usual to put them down, but we will turn the antiskid off and pump the brakes a few times to brake any ice that could have formed on the brakes.

 

[Going2Baja]

Do what you get paid to do, follow the SOP procedures.

There ya have it. To do anything else is to operate outside the safety of the SOP. Our SOP has the gear dropping just prior or at the final appch fix - how much longer would your Capt suggest to wait to drop the gear? This sounds like an accident/incident waiting to happen.

One thing to remember....If you do what your SOP says you will be safe. Be not afraid to tell the Capt, "Nope, sorry guy - I'm not doing that. We can talk to the CP later if you wish - but I'm not operating outside the manual."

Good luck!!

Baja.

 

[Fltlvls]

There ya have it. To do anything else is to operate outside the safety of the SOP. Our SOP has the gear dropping just prior or at the final appch fix - how much longer would your Capt suggest to wait to drop the gear? This sounds like an accident/incident waiting to happen.

One thing to remember....If you do what your SOP says you will be safe. Be not afraid to tell the Capt, "Nope, sorry guy - I'm not doing that. We can talk to the CP later if you wish - but I'm not operating outside the manual."

Good luck!!

Baja.

Sounds like good advice to me. Last thing I would want is to do a carpet dance in front of the CP because I went outside SOP and possibly forgetting to put the spark arresters down because I wanted to delay it due to icing.That would be 15 minutes of fame I wouldn't want.

 

[DoinTime]

Remember Hibbing, MN and the Express One JetStream-31 fatal accident. Express One pilots had developed an unauthroized procedure to fly through icing, it was called the slam dunk. Fly over the IAF at about 6.000' over the published altitude, and then flt idle descent in an unstablized apporach to cross the FAF on altitude. Icing was never problem, but slamming the airplane into the ground at 2,500/min descent was the result. 18 dead, 2 crew 16 pax

The pilots of Express I did not invent the "slam dunk" nor did the maneuver die with those unfortunate 18 souls. The most unfortunate thing is that these types of "creative" procedures will always exist so long as pilots are willing to operate aircraft into weather they are not intended to operate in.

 

[pilotyip]

The pilots of Express I did not invent the "slam dunk" nor did the maneuver die with those unfortunate 18 souls. The most unfortunate thing is that these types of "creative" procedures will always exist so long as pilots are willing to operate aircraft into weather they are not intended to operate in.

So you are saying JS couldn’t handle the icing conditions? From former JS pilots I have been told that the JS was OK in icing, it handled it like it was supposed to. The DO, CP and POI were relived of their duties because of this accident the NTSB said these individuals were aware of this unauthorized procedures, but allowed it to continue. Not to mention that he Captain a former Nuc Power Plant Officer had flunked checkrides 6, 15, and 24 months prior to the accident.

 

[Hobit]

What do you guys think?

I think a 10 pound rooster is a lot of Cok!

I've heard the same thing about extending the gear, but I have never seen anything written.

Leaving gear extended on T/O is on the CRJ MEL... I know I've done it but can't remember what the 'fault' requiring the delayed retraction. It's been 1.5 years since I flew that thing. Can anyone tell me if I am mixing this and something else up?

 

[Erlanger]

I flew with a guy who insists that you should wait to extend the landing gear while in icing conditions. He said the brakes could not work if you leave the gear down in icing. Being a former frieght dog I was surprised I had never heard of this. What say you guys?

When the wheels touchdown, spin up and you apply brakes, do you have any idea how much heat is generated? It sounds like a good way to forget to put the gear down though.

 

[DoinTime]

So you are saying JS couldn’t handle the icing conditions? From former JS pilots I have been told that the JS was OK in icing, it handled it like it was supposed to.

I fly with many former J-ball pilots and to the last man they say it performed OK in light icing. More than that and you had a problem.

The DO, CP and POI were relived of their duties because of this accident the NTSB said these individuals were aware of this unauthorized procedures, but allowed it to continue. Not to mention that he Captain a former Nuc Power Plant Officer had flunked checkrides 6, 15, and 24 months prior to the accident.

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the topic. Clearly, you just have an axe to grind.

 

[DoinTime]

Leaving gear extended on T/O is on the CRJ MEL... I know I've done it but can't remember what the 'fault' requiring the delayed retraction. It's been 1.5 years since I flew that thing. Can anyone tell me if I am mixing this and something else up?

That MEL is for the gear bay overheat sensor(s) being inoperative.

 

[Hobit]

That MEL is for the gear bay overheat sensor(s) being inoperative.

Thanks... It has been a while.

 

[CRJCptn]

That MEL is for the gear bay overheat sensor(s) being inoperative.

Always fun to explain to the pax that we have to fly for 10 min with the gear down (and to tell ATC we will be doing 200 KIAS)...

 

[pilotyip]

no axe

I fly with many former J-ball pilots and to the last man they say it performed OK in light icing. More than that and you had a problem.




I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the topic. Clearly, you just have an axe to grind.

Please no Ax to grind here, just sharing info from the NTSB report. We use it in CRM training to demonstrate an overbearing Capt., and a non-assertive F/O. I was questioning your original post about being forced to fly airplanes in conditions they were not designed for and having to invent procedures to cope.

 

[buscap]

If you have gear extension problems in a Piper Cadet, you have some serious issues.

Make that an Arrow!!!

 

[DoinTime]

I was questioning your original post about being forced to fly airplanes in conditions they were not designed for and having to invent procedures to cope.

I never said pilots were being forced to fly in conditions that particular airplanes are not well suited for. If pilots were being forced to do this it would be an easier problem to fix. Instead, pilots will go outside an aircrafts envelope willingly and make up crazy procedures to justify it to themselves (and possibly others) that the situation in question is now safe.

Unfortunately, many pilots seemed to be hard wired into a "mission complete" state of mind. This weakness has been and probably always will be the most significant obstacle to air safety.

 

[414Flyer]

As someone who flies in winter icing for a job (I actually seek it out), its hard to foresee a situation where you would need to delay gear extension. Just lower them as you normally would, it should be okay. If you are going through freezing precip that is so intense to freeze up the wheel brakes, you will probably have much bigger problems to worry about soon.

Now if we want to get into flaps usage when I come in rather iced up, its a bit different story, but then I am in C90.

 

[Hobit]

As someone who flies in winter icing for a job (I actually seek it out), its hard to foresee a situation where you would need to delay gear extension. Just lower them as you normally would, it should be okay. If you are going through freezing precip that is so intense to freeze up the wheel brakes, you will probably have much bigger problems to worry about soon.

Now if we want to get into flaps usage when I come in rather iced up, its a bit different story, but then I am in C90.

Please continue....

 

[Flyin2low]

So you are saying JS couldn’t handle the icing conditions? From former JS pilots I have been told that the JS was OK in icing, it handled it like it was supposed to.

The tail on the j31 didn't handle icing that well

 

[414Flyer]

Please continue....

Use Approach flaps, and no more. You do not want to be screwing around with full flaps when you have a significant amount of icing on the airplane.

 

[Going2Baja]

Use Approach flaps, and no more. You do not want to be screwing around with full flaps when you have a significant amount of icing on the airplane.

In a turboprop you have a very good point here if you are flying 91. Best place for the flaps if a missed appch is needed. And as far as stopping, no worries with beta and/or reverse depending on the amount of snow.

However, as previously stated...if your company op's doesn't cover this...don't do it. If you bend some metal regardless of what caused the problem and you were operating outside of company procedures...you're DONE!

Baja.

 

[414Flyer]

Yes, its Pt 91.

But usage of full flaps in an iced up airplane is a safety issue, and I would rather violate some kind of company ops and live, than crash and die.