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Definition of PIC

JRSLim

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Looking for opinions on this:
There's two MEIs. MEI 1 works for an FBO with a twin that MEI2 wants to get checked out in - the checkout requirement is 10 hours.

The logging PIC issue has been beat to death, however in this case...MEI 2 will be sole manipulator of the controls and is rated for the aircraft, so can log PIC. MEI 1 is acting as a required instructor, so can log PIC. However since MEI 2 isn' t receiving any true instruction it seems that actually logging dual given would sort of break the rules in that direction. 61.57 states that an instructor can log all time as pic while acting as a required instructor, but only states in (h) Logging training time that only that training recieived needs to be logged.

In other words would you say this is a case of the instructor acting as PIC as per the 61.57 and FAR 1 definition, yet not endorsing MEI 2's logbook due to no real instruction given?
 

midlifeflyer

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Oh dear. Shaun, you're overanalyzing. For all intents and purposes a pilot who is meeting a 10 hour checkout requirement is receiving instruction and the CFI is giving training.

At least I =hope= the CFI in that situation isn't curling up in the back seat and going to sleep instead of evaluating the pilot, providing feedback, and doing his job.
 
T

TDTURBO

It's the dude with his hands on the "equipment", pissing in the commode, hence PIC.
 
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Fly_Chick

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I agree with MidLife, perhaps there is a bit of overanalyzing.

Hypothetically: A student wants and instructor along because he has not flown VFR in a year. The student is current, all of his flying is IFR flight plans, and wants to make sure before he goes at it alone VFR that he has the radio calls correct and the requests to "transition the airspace" correctly.

Ground work is done to make sure he is familiar with airspace and radio calls.

In flight, he does everything by the book, talks to the various towers before entering their airspace, takes-off, flies, lands without any problems. The CFI does not have to intervene.

Since the instructor was observing the entire time, and ready and available to assist or teach with any deficient areas, I would interpret that to be the CFI can log dual given.
 

Ralgha

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JRSLim said:
Looking for opinions on this:
There's two MEIs. MEI 1 works for an FBO with a twin that MEI2 wants to get checked out in - the checkout requirement is 10 hours.

The logging PIC issue has been beat to death, however in this case...MEI 2 will be sole manipulator of the controls and is rated for the aircraft, so can log PIC. MEI 1 is acting as a required instructor, so can log PIC. However since MEI 2 isn' t receiving any true instruction it seems that actually logging dual given would sort of break the rules in that direction. 61.57 states that an instructor can log all time as pic while acting as a required instructor, but only states in (h) Logging training time that only that training recieived needs to be logged.

In other words would you say this is a case of the instructor acting as PIC as per the 61.57 and FAR 1 definition, yet not endorsing MEI 2's logbook due to no real instruction given?

If MEI 1 assumes that MEI 2 knows how to fly the airplane based solely on the fact that MEI 2 is an MEI, then MEI 1 should be stripped of his/her pilot certificates and never allowed to look sideways at an airplane again.

Because of paragraph 1, MEI 1 better give real instruction to MEI 2 during that 10 hour checkout, otherwise the consequences in paragraph 1 should again be applied. If MEI 1 doesn't know how to give real instruction to another MEI, then the consequences of paragraph 1 should be followed.

Because of paragraph 2, MEI 1 better sign the logbook of MEI 2, otherwise, if the insurance company ever sees fit to question the checkout of MEI 2, and looks at the logbook, and finds that MEI 1 didn't sign it, then both MEI 1 and MEI 2 are screwed, refer to paragraph 1 for the proper consequences.

Because of paragraph 3, both can log PIC, though only MEI 1 is logging "part 1 PIC".

:D
 
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Ralgha

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Additional note, if MEI 1 assumes that MEI 2 can fly the airplane just because MEI 2 is an MEI, then MEI 1 is forgetting the number one rule of CFIs:

1) The student is always trying to kill you.
 

lowlycfi

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TDTURBO said:
It's the dude with his hands on the "equipment", pissing in the comode, hence PIC.

I respectfully disagree. Part 1 says nothing about hands on the controls or even being in the cockpit for that matter. From 1.1:
Pilot in command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;

(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and

(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

I've had this situation come up during flight reviews, IPCs, checkouts, or when the pilot just wants an instructor along for someone to look over their shoulder. I always sit down with the other pilot before the flight and we decide who is going to be PIC during the flight as paragraph 1 and 2 above defines. Logging is another issue altogether covered in 61.51.
 
T

TDTURBO

lowlycfi said:
I respectfully disagree. Part 1 says nothing about hands on the controls or even being in the cockpit for that matter. From 1.1:
Pilot in command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;

(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and

(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

I've had this situation come up during flight reviews, IPCs, checkouts, or when the pilot just wants an instructor along for someone to look over their shoulder. I always sit down with the other pilot before the flight and we decide who is going to be PIC during the flight as paragraph 1 and 2 above defines. Logging is another issue altogether covered in 61.51.


You're kidding right?

You mean all this time I thought pissing in the commode while holding your "equipment" meant PIC?
 
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lowlycfi

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TDTURBO said:
You're kidding right?

You mean all this time I thought pissing in the comode while holding your "equipment" meant PIC?

I think there's another word for that. Just remember, if you shake it more than once you're playing with it.
 

JRSLim

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Ralgha said:
If MEI 1 assumes that MEI 2 knows how to fly the airplane based solely on the fact that MEI 2 is an MEI, then MEI 1 should be stripped of his/her pilot certificates and never allowed to look sideways at an airplane again.

Because of paragraph 1, MEI 1 better give real instruction to MEI 2 during that 10 hour checkout, otherwise the consequences in paragraph 1 should again be applied. If MEI 1 doesn't know how to give real instruction to another MEI, then the consequences of paragraph 1 should be followed.

Because of paragraph 2, MEI 1 better sign the logbook of MEI 2, otherwise, if the insurance company ever sees fit to question the checkout of MEI 2, and looks at the logbook, and finds that MEI 1 didn't sign it, then both MEI 1 and MEI 2 are screwed, refer to paragraph 1 for the proper consequences.

Because of paragraph 3, both can log PIC, though only MEI 1 is logging "part 1 PIC".

:D



Groovy, I KNEW there was a simple answer.

Thanks for all the replies
 

midlifeflyer

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TDTURBO said:
You're kidding right?

You mean all this time I thought pissing in the comode while holding your "equipment" meant PIC?
Some folks have no sense of humor. But I'm trying to figure out whose sense of humor is worse: the maker of the bad pun or the one who responds seriously to it. :D

Pissing In the Commmode, indeed!
 

lowlycfi

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midlifeflyer said:
Some folks have no sense of humor. But I'm trying to figure out whose sense of humor is worse: the maker of the bad pun or the one who responds seriously to it. :D

Pissing In the Commmode, indeed!

Yah, I got it the first time...and it was funny. Lighten up Francis.
 

troy

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dork.
 
T

TDTURBO

And she gets SIC time for holding it for me, I don't want to hurt my back ya know.:D That does qualify as a required crew member in my book.
 
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lowlycfi

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TDTURBO said:
And she gets SIC time for holding it for me, I don't want to hurt my back ya know.:D That does qualify as a required crew member in my book.

ROTFLMAO!!!!!

Good one!
 

Doc Holiday

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DOC (just a coincidence) has an FAR forum and an entire link about the logging of flight time that talks you through several situations all with references to the FARS.

Hope this helps.
 
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crzepilot

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You are already rated in the aircraft you can log PIC and Dual
 

JRSLim

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TDTURBO said:
Even from the bathroom?

..Of course, if you aren't in command there, then you're really SOL!

I'm beginning to feel sorry I asked....
 
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