Definition of PIC

[midlifeflyer]

I'm beginning to feel sorry I asked....

Why? This is probably the most informative PIC discussion I've seen in years!

 

[Tram]

Just know that PIC "Manipulation of the controls" may be good for some airlines but some of the majors don't count it.. You have to be "Pilot IN command or Aircraft commander" not simply manipulating the controls..

 

[Doc Holiday]

The logging PIC issue has been beat to death, however in this case...MEI 2 will be sole manipulator of the controls and is rated for the aircraft, so can log PIC. MEI 1 is acting as a required instructor, so can log PIC. However since MEI 2 isn' t receiving any true instruction it seems that actually logging dual given would sort of break the rules in that direction. 61.57 states that an instructor can log all time as pic while acting as a required instructor, but only states in (h) Logging training time that only that training recieived needs to be logged.

I'm not at all trying to be a jerk. That being said, you may have read over the regs a little too quickly. 61.57 deals with Recent Flight Experience. 61.51 addresses Pilot Logbooks, or the logging of flight time.

So MEI 2 needs 10 hours for insurance requirements. 61.51(e)(1)(i) states that a person can log PIC if they are the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the person is rated. So if the person is an MEI, he is multi rated. If he is manipulating the controls he can log PIC time (assuming no type ratings are required).

MEI 1 is the instructor. 61.51(e)(3) says that an authorized flight instructor may log PIC while acting as a flight instructor. So the instructor too could log PIC.

I do not see any language in the regs that says a person can log only training time that is "required". The only time that must be logged by 61.51(a) is training time that is required to meet the requirements of a certificate, rating, or flight review or the recency requirements (landings to carry pax/IFR). Everything else above and beyond those requirements you could never log. A lot of people do log that time anyway for insurance or to prove to a future employer that they have the necessary experience.

One other thing to consider when two people are logging PIC time in a small aircraft (such as the case above) is how to explain the time to a future employer. It may be worth your while if you are the one getting checked out to make a note regarding the PIC time you logged in your logbook. If they ask about it you could point to the specific flights you logged as PIC and say, "here, here, and here I logged PIC to meet the insurance requirements, but another instructor was with me because of the insurance." IMO that shows maturity and a future employer will respect that.

 

[JRSLim]

I'm not at all trying to be a jerk. That being said, ...........with me because of the insurance." IMO that shows maturity and a future employer will respect that.

Not a jerk at all, in fact thats basically where I was coming from. As Midlife said, probably over analysing it but....
While I definately agree with the position stated that MEI 2, while being the checking instructor on board has an obligation as an iunstructor not to let his guard down, it seems that after the first few flights, assuming MEI 1 is competent and safe, MEI 2 isn't doing much actual 'instructing'. However, as you quoted, he is alowed to log PIC by being the authorised instructor, but that doesnt necissarily mean he has to sign the logbook of the other MEI as dual given since he's really not giving any dual and its not for any requirement other than insurance. Good idea on the memo part.

Thanks for all the replies.

 

[Ralgha]

While I definately agree with the position stated that MEI 2, while being the checking instructor on board has an obligation as an iunstructor not to let his guard down, it seems that after the first few flights, assuming MEI 1 is competent and safe, MEI 2 isn't doing much actual 'instructing'.

A good instructor would find something to give actual instruction on.

but that doesnt necissarily mean he has to sign the logbook of the other MEI as dual given since he's really not giving any dual and its not for any requirement other than insurance.

Doesn't have to, but the insurance company is going to laugh all the way to the bank if MEI 2 cracks up and a claim is filed. Without record of the insurance requirements being met, the insurance isn't going to pay a dime.

What's with CFIs being allergic to logging dual received anyway?

 

[midlifeflyer]

What's with CFIs being allergic to logging dual received anyway?

I've been trying to figure out that part of the thread myself.

 

[Koslen]

PIC = PAIN IN the CRAINIUM!

Not sure on the spelling here. Sorry