Declining Glories: The Airline Career

[GogglesPisano]

The free market at work. Unions are losing their power.


Solution: Burn all the flight schools.

 

[Cardinal]

http://www.aero-news.net/images/cont...p-0203a_tn.jpg

The Great Lakes Captain's hat, long a symbol of the glories of the airline pilot career.

 

[800Dog]

The free market at work. Unions are losing their power.


Solution: Burn all the flight schools.

Or find a way to create more tornados!

 

[dudemize]

As long as CAL has 10,000 apps or whatever on file (1 of them is mine) I don't see how there can be any upward wage pressure, too much supply. Obviously the wages haven't gotten low enough to where nobody will apply. Until that happens management has no reason to increase wages. As we all know the airline managers could care less about whether your wife has to work or not.

A union can not override the laws of economics. I wish they could!

 

[800Dog]

As long as CAL has 10,000 apps or whatever on file (1 of them is mine) I don't see how there can be any upward wage pressure, too much supply. Obviously the wages haven't gotten low enough to where nobody will apply. Until that happens management has no reason to increase wages. As we all know the airline managers could care less about whether your wife has to work or not.

A union can not override the laws of economics. I wish they could!

CAL pilots could put upward pressure on wages by threatening and following through with a strike when the contract is opened for negotiations. Comair did it in 2001 when there were plenty of people willing to come aboard at low wages. Unity and resolve can turn the tide.

 

[ironspud]

Good grief!! What a bunch of whiners.

 

[warbirdfinder]

luckytohaveajob wrote:

The problems of this industry can be fixed. Keep age 60. Retire the whores in the next five years while the companies rebuild their balance sheets and profitability and then as a unified group with a purpose retake what was lost.

My God, you have been keeping the secret of running a successful airline from airline management all these years!!! You should be ashamed of yourself. But I guess while you were getting your triple doctorate in business management there wasn't enough time to call the airlines and let them know.
I am truly amazed that the airlines didn't discover your secret sometime in the last 80 years of airline operation.

 

[shroomwell]

I am sick of hearing about economics. The argument has very little basis as long as the Railway Labor Act exists, and government regulation exists. There is a small amount of economic forces at work, but do not lose sight of the other issues.

Do you really think we would be paid the same if management couldn't keep us tied up in negotiations for years on end, and then when we want to strike the President simply says we can't. Take those out of the equation and tell me how much you think we would be paid. That my friends would be a free market at work.

 

[Hpilot]

It's not just doctors. Neighbor next door-sales rep. for prefab/construction company $130,000 a year, across the street HR manager $110,000. Then there's the friend that got Ds through college and does accounting for a land mngt company $100,000. Friend that is an orthopedic sales rep. $200,000. Sister in-law 29 yrs old and senior accountant $200,000.

 

[pilotyip]

BTW I have never said Doc's are low pay, or pilots are high pay, if you want to be rich you should propably not become a pilot. I you like flyingairplanes, you can make a decent income doing something you like.

 

[learflyer]

Pilotyip and others will tell you Doctors do not make much these days. They are wrong. Some primary care physicians make under 100k but others are making big money. My cousin is an ER Doctor and makes sick money. He deserves it. My Father runs a hospital and just signed two Doctors at 500k a year plus a 500k signing bonus. We need to reverse the slide or we will find ourselves in the lower middle class. We seem to be our own worst enemy. I wish the LUV folks and all other pilots the best. Pay raises, increases in benefits etc. Problem is many seem to enjoy others taking paycuts.

Not to mention they don't start at the bottom every time they switch jobs!

 

[capt. megadeth]

It's not just doctors. Neighbor next door-sales rep. for prefab/construction company $130,000 a year, across the street HR manager $110,000. Then there's the friend that got Ds through college and does accounting for a land mngt company $100,000. Friend that is an orthopedic sales rep. $200,000. Sister in-law 29 yrs old and senior accountant $200,000.

You all make it sound like if you get out of aviation.....WHAM! You will be making 200K. It's amusing. I know people that make more money than I do and I know people that make less. The majority of the people I know that make more either work their a$$ off or do things that would make me want to shoot myself. In any case, to each his own.

 

[jtmpilot]

Capts in 1980 made $200,000 a year, their buying power was huge back then, we would need to make $800,000 today to have the same buying power... and we are worth every cent of $500,000 +, as a Captain of a 777 or A330 or 747... we are all selling ourselves way short these days.

 

[Andy]

BTW I have never said Doc's are low pay, or pilots are high pay, if you want to be rich you should propably not become a pilot. I you like flyingairplanes, you can make a decent income doing something you like.

I interpreted your original post, below, as stating that pilots are high pay. You will have a hard time convincing others that you meant otherwise.

This is still a great career, to be paid in the upper 5% of US income earners to do something you like. Most people will never expereince that.
Now if you do not like flying this is a terrible job.

I may like flying airplanes, but I'm sick and tired of people accepting lower wages just because it's a job that they enjoy. There are plenty of professions where people enjoy their jobs. I enjoy my current job. It doesn't mean that I'm going to whore myself out for low wages just because I enjoy the job. That is scablike behavior.

 

[Hpilot]

You all make it sound like if you get out of aviation.....WHAM! You will be making 200K. It's amusing. I know people that make more money than I do and I know people that make less. The majority of the people I know that make more either work their a$$ off or do things that would make me want to shoot myself. In any case, to each his own.

No, I didn't say that. Starting salary would be about $40-50,000. I've been at this longer though than most of the people I listed. I would rather be a pilot than any of the jobs above. THE POINT IS THAT IF THE SLIDE IS NOT REVERSED IT WON'T BE WORTH IT.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

And age 65 is sure to increase the downward slide of the career.

 

[brnstrmr]

airline flying as a declining career? Dont forget the replacement jet, I mean the regional jet. without the regional jet picking up the mainline flying to the extent it has, you would not be seeing this downward pressure on pilot wages. The whipsaw works against mainline pilots just as much as it works against the regional pilot.

 

[VABB]

It's not just doctors. Neighbor next door-sales rep. for prefab/construction company $130,000 a year, across the street HR manager $110,000. Then there's the friend that got Ds through college and does accounting for a land mngt company $100,000. Friend that is an orthopedic sales rep. $200,000. Sister in-law 29 yrs old and senior accountant $200,000.

Yeah, but they have office jobs and work 9 to 5 - not as cool as flying a jet. But then again, they don't have to use a credit card to finance a candy bar either.

 

[jonjuan]

It's not just doctors. Neighbor next door-sales rep. for prefab/construction company $130,000 a year, across the street HR manager $110,000. Then there's the friend that got Ds through college and does accounting for a land mngt company $100,000. Friend that is an orthopedic sales rep. $200,000. Sister in-law 29 yrs old and senior accountant $200,000.

Problem is that these jobs are an anomaly. If you wanted to be an ortho sales rep making this kind of jing, it would take you 10 years and quite a bit of luck, intelligence, perseverance and skill along with the right personality. For every one of these jobs, 50 people started the journey. No such luck, intelligence, perseverance, and skill required to be a regional pilot.
Now take the average CHQ new hire F/O. Take a look at their background. Few few barriers to entry other than being able to fog a mirror. The QOL is relatively appealing. You tell the average 19 Y/O that if you work your AS$ off in college as an accounting major, get a job working 70-hours a week in a sh1tty office environment as an accountant, you might just make $100k by the time you are 30. Now you tell him/her that you get hired at CHQ at 21, be making $60K by 25, hired by a major airline and $100K by 30, what would they choose?
From their perspective, it's a no-brainer.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

airline flying as a declining career? Dont forget the replacement jet, I mean the regional jet. without the regional jet picking up the mainline flying to the extent it has, you would not be seeing this downward pressure on pilot wages. The whipsaw works against mainline pilots just as much as it works against the regional pilot.

The pilot profession is a top down structure. It is not the bottom and those entering the business that have ruined it. The bottom can not be controlled. The top can. ALPA has no control over pay for train, requirements of types of get the job, or non-union companies.

What ALPA does have control over is NWA, DAL, US Air, CAL, UAUA, Pinnacle, XJT, Mesaba, MESA, Air Wisky, Alaska, and the others who should be commanding the standards. The profession's standards are not determined from the bottom but the top of these ALPA controlled companies.

ALPA, under REZ, failed to hold the line, and make the sacrifices needed. If one or two of those companies needed to fail to keep the standards at the others so be it. Instead ALPA aligned everyone with the lowest common denominator. We will see if the new ALPA leaders make the tough decisions needed.

Leadershiop from the top is the only hope. ALPA is top down organization. There will always be a bottom but its the top standards that define the direction of the profession.