declaring an emergency

[JediNein]

No you don't. You obviously didn't read the NTSB decision I posted. I didn't post it because I have some fetish for posting irrelevant links. I posted it because it had the court transcript of the hearing of a pilot who had his certificate *revoked* (not suspended) for doing what you suggest.

Nor did you read my post. It was changed a long time before your response, unfortunately at the same time Flibmeister responded.

My original post stated "the pilot in the case you cited did not have a minimum fuel situation." The rest was deleted.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[flyifrvfr]

No great challenge there, mate. I merely quoted you.[/QUOTE]
Again AVBUG, point out for me where I have said something that was wrong, unsafe, and otherwise ridiculous. You can't, and that is why you try to come back with smart remarks that are also wrong. You are on a sinking ship and to continue to try to make me look bad, makes you look worse. I asked you some valid questions that you wont answer. Is a passenger who is having a heart attack a mountain or a molehill. I, and every other rational thinking person on this board await your reply to the question.

 

[avbug]

Sinking ship?

No, not really. It' all about you. A desire to "get" you. Grind you into tiny little pieces and feed you to parakeets so that you vanish without a trace. Hurt you by degrees, until at last your mind crumbles. More than a desire. A dream, really. I can't explain it. I woke up one morning and thought to myself, "Self, what a beautiful morning! The sun is bright, the grass is green, I feel rested and alive. Today, I believe I'll do everything in my power to ruin flyingifrvr."

That's what I said. And now my evil plan is at work, slowly picking you apart. Can you feel it?

Grow up.


Ahh, gotta edit. You did insist on asking again, a question I already answered, weather a person experiencing a "heart attack" is a mountain, or a mole hill. Neither, really. It's a person having a heart attack. But I'm sure you knew that.

Just like the drooling fools that panic at the sight of a fire, most folks fall apart when they see a teaspoon of blood, or a medical problem such as a cardiac arrest.

Truth be told, very few who experience a cardiac arrest will survive, depending on the nature of the arrest, weather it's a shockable rythym, etc. CPR is nearly, but not quite futile. Chances are that the cardiac victim is already circling the drain. Perhaps that might inspire you to break you neck trying to be the hero you watch on ER...but you're wasting your time. If the person is indeed having a cardiac arrest, and even if that person is shockable, if they don't get shocked on the airplane, the chances are slim...great high pronounciation of the e word or no.

Mountain? Molehill? Neither at all. A person with a problem, to which you may be able to provide some very limited assistance. The FA has a chance of doing something for the patient with an AED; you don't. If no AED is available, the patient might make it, might not; that's not the least concern of yours. Your mission is to fly safely and land. Advise ATC that you have a patient with chest pain, or that has collapsed, or whatever the case may be. Advise ATC you'll be landing xxx direct, and request a truck and an ambulance standing by. Wasn't that a challenge?

Before you get all boundup in hero-itis, remember something that a professional should remember; you didn't create the emergency, you didn't create the problem, you didn't make the challenge. You're only contributing what you can to the matter.

This thread has gone on for two years now, and referring back throughout this lengthy thread, I've stated over and over and over, do whatever is necessary to handle an emergency. An irrifutable truism to which you can take no exception. My statements have been correct, every one, and true. All have been consistant, accurate, and right. Contrary to your cockeyed view of things, most folks who have responded herein have recognized that fact and contributed to the thread, rather than arguing with reason and fact. Just you, and that goofy clown pilot character, and a few others. Doesn't speak highly for your efforts; drop it already. Have you a point to prove, or are you merely insecure? Enough is enough.

 

[Dumbledore]

(4) two flaps-up landings, ...

Let ME get this straight - YOU declared an emergency because you made a no-flap landing?!? That's a required maneuver to get a type rating, of which I have several. I have never "declared" an emergency in the sim for my no-flappers, nor have I ever been advised by the examiner that I should have. What's so tricky about it other than a short runway? Perhaps there was a better option with a longer runway that wouldn't have made it an emergency?

 

[minitour]

Let ME get this straight - YOU declared an emergency because you made a no-flap landing?!? That's a required maneuver to get a type rating, of which I have several. I have never "declared" an emergency in the sim for my no-flappers, nor have I ever been advised by the examiner that I should have. What's so tricky about it other than a short runway? Perhaps there was a better option with a longer runway that wouldn't have made it an emergency?

Emergency? No...not for flaps up...

Maybe let Tower know you might need the full length and if they ask, tell them why. But to declare an emergency for something required by the type rating (not to mention its in the PPL PTS) is kinda rediculous.

Flibmeister:
Well said Re: the "minimum fuel" thing.

Quite simply if you can't make it with the required reserve under the regs, just tell ATC "unable". I'm sure they'll ask why and you can tell them.

Perhaps they can clear you along your original route....or perhaps they'll just tell you to pick someplace to get gas.

Either way, if you have to declare an emergency right after you blast off due to minimum fuel, I would assume the controller might be marking the tape and you could have some paperwork to do once you get to wherever you're going....

Why not just take enough gas in the first place? Or at least know where (along a different route) you could go to get gas if you need it....seems pretty simple..

JMHO

-mini

PS
Thats not saying that if you have a real minimum fuel situation, you shouldn't tell ATC....maybe you got vectored all the way out to nowhere along your route and now you can't make it...so you tell them "hey we need ___ minimum fuel ___ left" I'm sure they'd be more than happy to help...

Okay I'm done...

 

[350DRIVER]

avbug, right on the money as always.


well stated.

3 5 0

 

[FracCapt]

Let ME get this straight - YOU declared an emergency because you made a no-flap landing?!? That's a required maneuver to get a type rating, of which I have several. I have never "declared" an emergency in the sim for my no-flappers, nor have I ever been advised by the examiner that I should have. What's so tricky about it other than a short runway? Perhaps there was a better option with a longer runway that wouldn't have made it an emergency?

First of all, unless you're familiar with his company GOM/FOM, you shouldn't assume that it doesn't state that they are required to declare for certain things. Would I declare for a no flap landing in the airplane I currently fly? Nope...I've had to make a couple, but just notified the tower we wouldn't be able to exit the runway quickly...but I have seen a Lufthansa B744 declare at LAX because they were landing no flaps/slats. Good thing they did...one of their brakes reportedly caught fire, but was quickly extinguished because there was a truck there within 30 seconds of when they stopped.

I think that some people are terrified of declaring. I'm not. I've done it a few times...engine failures, precautionary shutdown, engine fire, and primary hydraulic failure. It's not a big deal...and if it makes somebody feel better to declare for something that's way out of the ordinary, so be it. Deal with it.

But to declare an emergency for something required by the type rating (not to mention its in the PPL PTS) is kinda rediculous.

Simulated engine outs are required by the PPL PTS....so does that mean you won't declare an emergency if your engine quits?

Unless you're intimitely familiar with the aircraft that somebody else flies, I don't think you should be casting stones when they decide they need to declare for something. In some airplane, the approach and Vref speeds are 50 knots(or more) higher with no flaps...and the brakes aren't designed to handle that...so they could easily catch fire. Do you think a fire you believe will happen after landing is enough reason to declare an emergency? Hmmmm?

 

[501261]

Emergency? No...not for flaps up...

Maybe let Tower know you might need the full length and if they ask, tell them why. But to declare an emergency for something required by the type rating (not to mention its in the PPL PTS) is kinda rediculous.

That's idiotic, to simply state that! Why did the flaps die? In a lot of airplanes if you have no flaps, you have no hydraulics, no hydraulics, no normal gear extension, or normal brakes etc. How about airplanes with electrical flaps? What caused the flaps to die?

Ya, a no flap landing is something that MIGHT be considered an emergency.

 

[minitour]

That's idiotic, to simply state that! Why did the flaps die? In a lot of airplanes if you have no flaps, you have no hydraulics, no hydraulics, no normal gear extension, or normal brakes etc. How about airplanes with electrical flaps? What caused the flaps to die?

Ya, a no flap landing is something that MIGHT be considered an emergency.

So you manually put the gear down and roll to the end...keep the power high enough to keep you from stalling but low enough that you can kill it ASAP...

I'll give you "abnormal" but not emergency.

On the PPL ride they have you do a no flap landing for a simulated electrical failure...hell even on the ATP ride they're supposed to fail everything (flaps/gear extension/etc) at once. Is that an emergency? Not really...but definately Abnormal...

Is it something I'd want tower/ATC (so they don't sequence you behind something big and slow) to be aware of? Most surely!

Is it something I'd drop the "E" for? Not likely...

-mini

*edit*
FracCap:
I will agree that if it makes you feel better/safer to declare then by all means do so...and if its in your Company book then yep...its not worth losing a job over three words...and you're right...there's nothing really "wrong" with declaring if you need to...but I've heard lots and lots of talk about people landing no flaps and it didn't seem to be an issue...

*double edit*
Nah...you guys are right...and I'm not being sarcastic.

If I was in that situation (flying a 74) and had no flaps (trailing or leading) I'd be declaring too...and it really wouldn't matter if I had 2 or 3 miles of pavement...I'd want the trucks rolling and I'd want priority...

I guess the reality is it is a case-by-case basis...

Just like some people consider radio failure an emergency, some don't (even in IMC)...it just depends on what YOU feel at the time is worthy of being considered an emergency...

Great points on the no flap thing...I was wrong.

 

[Flyin Tony]

I ran out of gas 2 times. Thank god that the plane has 4 tanks. I just switch to a full one and kept going