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declaring an emergency
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falcondriver
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falcondriver
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dispatchguy
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Jumpseated into PHX about 8pm last nite in an A319 when a Piper Cheyenne declared an emergency due to smoke coming out of his overhead panel.
PHX ATC closed runway 26 and gave it to him, and the controller did one helluva job rerouting all of the arrivals to the 25s, while managing 25R departures.
By the time we landed, ATC was allowing arrivals onto 26 again, so I assumed that it all worked out ok.
PHX ATC closed runway 26 and gave it to him, and the controller did one helluva job rerouting all of the arrivals to the 25s, while managing 25R departures.
By the time we landed, ATC was allowing arrivals onto 26 again, so I assumed that it all worked out ok.
bobbysamd
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Declaring an emergency
Loss of vacuum system in IMC is a no-brainer emergency declaration. I realize we practice partial-panel NDB approaches during training, but that is an extreme, non real-world situation. As a practical matter, you would declare and request clearance to the nearest airport that has VFR or an ILS.
Opinions differ on an engine-out emergency. Some airplanes maintain altitude just fine on one engine. Others do not. Just the same, my gut reaction is I would declare.
Sputtering engine in a single might be reason to declare, if you can't fix it by switching tanks, or carb heat or alternate air, or by running on one mag. Even then, I'd declare or at least confess if my single was running only on one mag.
A lot depends. It's easy for me to say what I'd do while I'm sitting here and typing. Actually mulling over my options while trying to fly the airplane may change things. Of course, the first thing you must always do is fly the airplane. The Eastern guys in the Florida swamp are proof positive of the consequences of not flying the airplane.
Loss of vacuum system in IMC is a no-brainer emergency declaration. I realize we practice partial-panel NDB approaches during training, but that is an extreme, non real-world situation. As a practical matter, you would declare and request clearance to the nearest airport that has VFR or an ILS.
Opinions differ on an engine-out emergency. Some airplanes maintain altitude just fine on one engine. Others do not. Just the same, my gut reaction is I would declare.
Sputtering engine in a single might be reason to declare, if you can't fix it by switching tanks, or carb heat or alternate air, or by running on one mag. Even then, I'd declare or at least confess if my single was running only on one mag.
A lot depends. It's easy for me to say what I'd do while I'm sitting here and typing. Actually mulling over my options while trying to fly the airplane may change things. Of course, the first thing you must always do is fly the airplane. The Eastern guys in the Florida swamp are proof positive of the consequences of not flying the airplane.
DarnNearaJet
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Freight Dog
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JimNtexas
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About four years ago I was in an Archer at night between San Antonio and Austin, about 9,000. I remember one of the comets was up, and the sky was crystal clear. There were solid stratus clouds from 1000 agl to 7000 msl in the Austin area.
I was really enjoying the sky when I heard a little "pop", followed by the alternator light.
This Archer used to have air conditioning, which means there is a rubber band instead of a real alternator belt. The rubber band had broken.
I powered down everything except one radio. I declared an emergency and asked for a heading to intercept the Austin ILS. They gave me a heading and discretion to descend. Based on the distance, it was about 12 to 15 minutes away, so I told the controller I'd be back in 10 minutes, and turned the radio off.
I started a descent after five minutes or so, and came back up at the ten minute point (it was hard to wait). They gave me a corrected vector to intercept which worked out fine. I broke out at a thousand feet and canceled the emergency and landed.
I never heard a word about it from the Feds, and the next day I ordered a handheld GPS.
Jim
I was really enjoying the sky when I heard a little "pop", followed by the alternator light.
This Archer used to have air conditioning, which means there is a rubber band instead of a real alternator belt. The rubber band had broken.
I powered down everything except one radio. I declared an emergency and asked for a heading to intercept the Austin ILS. They gave me a heading and discretion to descend. Based on the distance, it was about 12 to 15 minutes away, so I told the controller I'd be back in 10 minutes, and turned the radio off.
I started a descent after five minutes or so, and came back up at the ten minute point (it was hard to wait). They gave me a corrected vector to intercept which worked out fine. I broke out at a thousand feet and canceled the emergency and landed.
I never heard a word about it from the Feds, and the next day I ordered a handheld GPS.
Jim
Typhoon1244
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I've never heard of someone being accused of being too conservative about declaring an emergency. Example: flaps jammed up. I declared. Sure, we practice no-flap landings in the sim and we had lots of runway (MCO)...but landing flaps up is still an abnormal situation in most Part 121 jets. If something went wrong, and I had said "nah, we don't need the equipment," etc, etc, guess who get's crucified in the investigation?
I've had engine fires and muiltiple failures, irate passengers and medically challenged passengers, structural failures, and once had someone in the right seat experience a heart attack. However, I have never "declared" an emergency. I rolled the rescue trucks once, and that wasn't my decision (but I didn't fight it, either).
Most of the time the situations have been handleable without outside intervention. Situations which have warranted declaration in most cases precluded taking the time to make such a declaration...usually too busy for such formalities.
Bear in mind that declaration of an emergency isn't necessary to get priority handling, and also bear in mind that ATC can make the decision for you. Also bear in mind that declaration of an emergency isn't the E-ticket to freedom from violation; don't declare an emergency to save your self from a violation. The FAA isn't stupid, and attempting to cover up a problem by declaring an emergency doesn't bode well.
If you do have an emergency, notify somebody about it if it will help. There is no harm in it, and there can be some terrific advantages.
Don't automatically assume an instrument failure, or engine failure, or even a fire is an emergency. Look at the specific circumstances of the moment and weigh it against your options and needs. Don't hesitate to ask for help, but don't make a mountain out of molehill, either. I have yet to have experienced an engine failure in which making any such declaration would have made one iota of difference, but that's not to say it isn't possible. In the few cases when sweat was caused to form, talking on the radio was the farthest from my mind, and certainly my lowest priority.
Sometimes the declaration of an emergency is perceived to be a mystical act that changes the nature of everything, and that a formal declaration must be made. It's viewed as though ATC cannot help and assistance cannot be brought to play without this magic act. Not so. State your problem and your intentions, and treat it just like you would any other phase of flight. It needn't be formal, or melodramatic; tell ATC what you have got, and then fly it. Certainly don't minimize your statement (typified by the historical significance of "minimum fuel" vs. a true emergency, for example), but tell it like it is. State what you intend to do, and then do it.
One thing I have seen in declarations is the unwillingness to fully take charge of the moment. Rather than state that Flight 683 would like to return for landing, state that you have an engine fire and are proceeding direct for the numbers, request the trucks, etc. Tell ATC or whomever you're talking to exactly what you have, what you intend to do about it, and what help you need. Then have a ball.
Most of the time the situations have been handleable without outside intervention. Situations which have warranted declaration in most cases precluded taking the time to make such a declaration...usually too busy for such formalities.
Bear in mind that declaration of an emergency isn't necessary to get priority handling, and also bear in mind that ATC can make the decision for you. Also bear in mind that declaration of an emergency isn't the E-ticket to freedom from violation; don't declare an emergency to save your self from a violation. The FAA isn't stupid, and attempting to cover up a problem by declaring an emergency doesn't bode well.
If you do have an emergency, notify somebody about it if it will help. There is no harm in it, and there can be some terrific advantages.
Don't automatically assume an instrument failure, or engine failure, or even a fire is an emergency. Look at the specific circumstances of the moment and weigh it against your options and needs. Don't hesitate to ask for help, but don't make a mountain out of molehill, either. I have yet to have experienced an engine failure in which making any such declaration would have made one iota of difference, but that's not to say it isn't possible. In the few cases when sweat was caused to form, talking on the radio was the farthest from my mind, and certainly my lowest priority.
Sometimes the declaration of an emergency is perceived to be a mystical act that changes the nature of everything, and that a formal declaration must be made. It's viewed as though ATC cannot help and assistance cannot be brought to play without this magic act. Not so. State your problem and your intentions, and treat it just like you would any other phase of flight. It needn't be formal, or melodramatic; tell ATC what you have got, and then fly it. Certainly don't minimize your statement (typified by the historical significance of "minimum fuel" vs. a true emergency, for example), but tell it like it is. State what you intend to do, and then do it.
One thing I have seen in declarations is the unwillingness to fully take charge of the moment. Rather than state that Flight 683 would like to return for landing, state that you have an engine fire and are proceeding direct for the numbers, request the trucks, etc. Tell ATC or whomever you're talking to exactly what you have, what you intend to do about it, and what help you need. Then have a ball.
Brother Francis
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A few thoughts
If you have an Emergency Checklist open, it is an emergency. Say so. Do what you need to do in the airplane, then, and only then should you speak. Drop the microphone and fly the airplane; don't drop the airplane and fly the microphone. Run the checklist(s) first. If there is still a problem after the last line, speak up. Then run the checklists that deal with the existing situation.
Freight Dog is absolutely right. Ref: Chapter 14, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 91 paragraph 3, subparagraph a. As stated above, this is not a magic bullet that will protect you from the consequences of your own mistakes. Ref: subparagraph b.
Arguments with ATC over wx deviations. It's rare, but it happens. Declaring an emergency reduces IFR separation standards and gives everyone more room to work with. The threat should be sufficient. If not, declare. You are protected by 91.3(a). Example:
"If I can't get a 20 degree left turn in the next 3 miles I'm going to declare an emergency."
"Unable 20 left. Maintain present heading."
"XXX is declaring an emergency and is established on YYY heading."
If you have an Emergency Checklist open, it is an emergency. Say so. Do what you need to do in the airplane, then, and only then should you speak. Drop the microphone and fly the airplane; don't drop the airplane and fly the microphone. Run the checklist(s) first. If there is still a problem after the last line, speak up. Then run the checklists that deal with the existing situation.
Freight Dog is absolutely right. Ref: Chapter 14, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 91 paragraph 3, subparagraph a. As stated above, this is not a magic bullet that will protect you from the consequences of your own mistakes. Ref: subparagraph b.
Arguments with ATC over wx deviations. It's rare, but it happens. Declaring an emergency reduces IFR separation standards and gives everyone more room to work with. The threat should be sufficient. If not, declare. You are protected by 91.3(a). Example:
"If I can't get a 20 degree left turn in the next 3 miles I'm going to declare an emergency."
"Unable 20 left. Maintain present heading."
"XXX is declaring an emergency and is established on YYY heading."
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Typhoon1244
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Re: A few thoughts
Too often, "declaring an emergency" is seen as a sign of weakness on the part of the pilot, not macho. Other people shy away from declaring because of the paperwork or inconvenience involved. That's a load of crap...like guys who press on with a bad approach simply because they don't want to have to write up an Occurance Report (or whatever form your company uses).
If my little third-world turboprop has suddenly blown all of its hydraulic fluid overboard, guess what? I just became the most important airplane in Oklahoma City...in my mind, anyway. Does that mean the first thing I do is start talking on the radio? No. Think of the radio as a tool you use to clean up after a failure.
"Flight 221 is declaring an emergency, we've lost both hydraulic systems, which will mean a no-flap landing with minimal braking capability, we need to run a couple checklists and we'll be ready for an approach to five-left in about ten minutes. We'll keep you advised if we need anything else." Now you don't have to specify what kind of handling you need or when to roll the trucks.
Contrary to popular belief, it is possible to declare and still remain P.I.C. No, it's not a get-out-of-jail-free card, but it does give you some leeway you might not otherwise have. If you think you're in a situation which is a valid emergency, but declaring it one wouldn't affect the outcome significantly, why not declare? So you don't have to do some paperwork? C'mon! Hey, from a purely macho standpoint, I'd a lot rather declare before someone else has to do it for me!
(The above ranting and raving is a reflection of this poster's opinion and should not be regarded as flight instruction...)
I'm with Brother Francis on this one...in fact on some aircraft, I'd extend it to include certain Abnormals.Brother Francis said:
Too often, "declaring an emergency" is seen as a sign of weakness on the part of the pilot, not macho. Other people shy away from declaring because of the paperwork or inconvenience involved. That's a load of crap...like guys who press on with a bad approach simply because they don't want to have to write up an Occurance Report (or whatever form your company uses).
If my little third-world turboprop has suddenly blown all of its hydraulic fluid overboard, guess what? I just became the most important airplane in Oklahoma City...in my mind, anyway. Does that mean the first thing I do is start talking on the radio? No. Think of the radio as a tool you use to clean up after a failure.
"Flight 221 is declaring an emergency, we've lost both hydraulic systems, which will mean a no-flap landing with minimal braking capability, we need to run a couple checklists and we'll be ready for an approach to five-left in about ten minutes. We'll keep you advised if we need anything else." Now you don't have to specify what kind of handling you need or when to roll the trucks.
Contrary to popular belief, it is possible to declare and still remain P.I.C. No, it's not a get-out-of-jail-free card, but it does give you some leeway you might not otherwise have. If you think you're in a situation which is a valid emergency, but declaring it one wouldn't affect the outcome significantly, why not declare? So you don't have to do some paperwork? C'mon! Hey, from a purely macho standpoint, I'd a lot rather declare before someone else has to do it for me!
(The above ranting and raving is a reflection of this poster's opinion and should not be regarded as flight instruction...)
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DarnNearaJet
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I've had two. The first was smoke in the CP. We lost the #1 inverter, fried the windshield heat controller and had lightes on everywhere. The second was a windshield failure at FL 350. Neither were any fun. We declared an emergency, and ATC handled us with excellent service and got us on the ground fast.
Saabslime
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Avbug, if you don't consider declaring an emergency necessary during an engine failure, fire, etc. I would consider you more of a cowboy than a professional aviator. I understand what you're saying but if you have a problem that warrents returning to the airport immediately, its an emergency period. Just say so.
Typhoon1244
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I've been thinking this over, and I've decided I was too diplomatic before.
If you've got two engines installed on your airplane, and one of them isn't working, and you're in flight...THAT'S AN EMERGENCY, and you need to declare it as such.
There are certain companies who strongly discourage--to the point of termination--declaring an emergency. AirTran is one of them. They discourage this because they're worried about the "bad press" an emergency could generate. I'm sorry that this attitude about emergencies is being perpetuated.
If things are not normal, and there's even a chance that someone in or around your aircraft could get hurt, darn it, declare!
Avbug, you scare me.
If you've got two engines installed on your airplane, and one of them isn't working, and you're in flight...THAT'S AN EMERGENCY, and you need to declare it as such.
There are certain companies who strongly discourage--to the point of termination--declaring an emergency. AirTran is one of them. They discourage this because they're worried about the "bad press" an emergency could generate. I'm sorry that this attitude about emergencies is being perpetuated.
If things are not normal, and there's even a chance that someone in or around your aircraft could get hurt, darn it, declare!
Avbug, you scare me.
njcapt
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His advice scares me, too.Typhoon1244 said:
I can't imagine what kind of career experience he has that would cause him to have such a cavalier attitude towards potentially career affecting incidents. Maybe my time flying for 121 airlines has affected my feelings regarding declaring emergencies, but I believe that ANY time you have the possibility of bending the aircraft on landing or have some significant reduction in performance (engines, brakes, flaps - not just one redundant system that powers them) you declare. Jeez... at most airlines you just fill out an irregularity report and the Chief Pilot's office handles the feds.
What is the downside of declaring? Too macho to admit that you might need assistance? Afraid of drawing attention to yourself? You owe it to your passengers, the owner of the aircraft, the guy who lands behind you as you are trailing oil or parts, and the airport operators to make your situation known AND set the proper remedies in motion.
JimNtexas
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I just remembered something. About 15 years ago I was at an air show in Twin Falls Idaho. Bob Hoover was performing in his P-51, I was listening to the tower frequency, which was also the show control frequency.
All of sudden he rolled out of a manuver and said "Mustang has an emergency, I'm losing coolent". Sure enough, I saw a small vapor trail coming out of the engine.
He had plenty of energy, and I have no doubt whatsoever he could have just landed and 99% of the people wouldn't have noticed anything. He didn't even need traffic priority.
As he turned base he said "why haven't you rolled the trucks?" He shut down the engine on rollout and coasted to the turnoff, stopping in front of show center.
I guess if Bob Hoover isn't too proud to declare an emergency, then I'm not either.
Jim
All of sudden he rolled out of a manuver and said "Mustang has an emergency, I'm losing coolent". Sure enough, I saw a small vapor trail coming out of the engine.
He had plenty of energy, and I have no doubt whatsoever he could have just landed and 99% of the people wouldn't have noticed anything. He didn't even need traffic priority.
As he turned base he said "why haven't you rolled the trucks?" He shut down the engine on rollout and coasted to the turnoff, stopping in front of show center.
I guess if Bob Hoover isn't too proud to declare an emergency, then I'm not either.
Jim
Typhoon1244
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Well said.In Avbugs defense there is quite a difference losing one engine in a turboprop vs 747-400.
Our company policy(approved by FAA- probably 50 years ago) is not to declare an emmergency for 1 engine failure...I am sure the captain would depending on the circumstances.
My personal thoughts and experience- I have never seen anyone criticized for declaring.. I have seen the faa step in when in their opinion they think you should have declared and even taken certificate action.
(im moving and have packed my books) but somewhere in the AIM-emmergency section they have a paragraph encouraging people to declare an emmergency and to take advantage of the assistance atc can give before the situation deteriates.( What good does it do to declare an emmergency right before you go down in flames? It is a little to late)
Also it is a required report when certain failures occur..Plus your company will have to report these... so you are not going to hide anything.. you might as well help yourself a little and C.Y.A
Our company policy(approved by FAA- probably 50 years ago) is not to declare an emmergency for 1 engine failure...I am sure the captain would depending on the circumstances.
My personal thoughts and experience- I have never seen anyone criticized for declaring.. I have seen the faa step in when in their opinion they think you should have declared and even taken certificate action.
(im moving and have packed my books) but somewhere in the AIM-emmergency section they have a paragraph encouraging people to declare an emmergency and to take advantage of the assistance atc can give before the situation deteriates.( What good does it do to declare an emmergency right before you go down in flames? It is a little to late)
Also it is a required report when certain failures occur..Plus your company will have to report these... so you are not going to hide anything.. you might as well help yourself a little and C.Y.A
Y'all can put away the lynch ropes. We've had this conversation before. Just because you don't have the experience, don't knock the insight.
Do I consider an engine failure an emergency? In most cases, most of the engine failures I've had, no. I've had them in single engine piston airplanes, and multi engine turbine airplanes, and not yet has one become an emergency. That's not to say it won't. However, it hasn't yet. Those who are going to blast me for such a "cowboy" or "cavalier" attitude should tell me all about their vast experience having engine failures or inflight fires, and I'll be happy to listen.
It has nothing to do with being "macho." That's for wet behind the ears kids to who such things mean a tinkers **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**. For me, it makes no difference.
Two years ago I experienced five engine failures in a four month period. Before anyone yaks off about poor maintenance issues, make sure you know what you're talking about and have experience in extreme environments where these things occur, lest you speak far out of turn. I've heard it all before, and usually by those without the experience to talk, or the place to stand in.
One of those failures was a V1 cut. It involved an engine rollback just prior to v1 (which occurs when taking the runway in that operation, because once the power comes up, you're committed). After shutdown, we managed 300' in the pattern for a return and landed. The base rolled crash rescue for us; we were too busy with the airplane to worry about talking to anybody, nor would it have helped. Was that an emergency? It was certainly a handfull, but declaring anything, and talking to anybody was absolutely out of the question at the time.
I recall posting comments about my view on inflight emergencies once some time ago here. I received all kinds of scathing editorials and private messages by those who had experienced the gamut in the simulator, but never in real life. Some time later an individual wrote back and stated that he had learned what it was I was talking about, and I believe him. He has the experience to know, now.
I knew an individual who left a position with an operator to go to work for an airline. He was assigned an experienced captain, for IOE line work. The captain mentioned that he had dealt with an in-flight emergency only a week before. Interested to learn the new business, this individual asked about the emergency. The captain said he had lost his primary inverter.
The individual asked what the emergency had been. That was it. The primary inverter. Ahh. The captain asked the individual what sort of experience he had with emergencies. The individual rattled off a list of things that had occured in the past year, including hydraulic failures, fires, structural cracks and failures, etc. The captain was aghast. The individual quit a few days later; he said he couldn't identify with people who thought something so piddly was an emergency; he went back to the operator to work. In a way, I feel the same.
Then again, I've worked around enough people that feel a spot on their white shirt is an emergency, I have developed a certain level of contempt for them. I've met enough flight instructors who are afraid of the student and the airplane that I'm wary of pilots and instructors until they prove themselves. My present temporary employer hired a pilot last year to fly the airplane I'm flying, doing the job I'm doing. That pilot had his first fire in the airplane, and immediately quit when he landed. During a going fire. He was terrified of the airplane and what he was required to do with it, and the conditions he was required to fly into, and the circumstances under which he had to do it. Quit on the spot after one sortie. To him, I imagine life itself is a big emergency. Better he quit than he kill himself and take a good airplane out of service.
An engine failure is NOT an emergency of itself. Certainly it can be, and I did clearly state before that if emergency authority is necessary, it should be used. However, I have too much experience with these things in actual fact to believe that any one thing is automatically an emergency, bar nothing. It's just not true. I've had fires and fire indications many times, and not yet has one developed into an emergency. I've dealt with them and continued the operation as necessary. This isn't cowboy or macho; it's doing a job professionally and in the manner that the job requires, and getting the job done.
You might think running an airplane down a steep mountain slope in smoke and flame is cowboy, but you'd be wrong. You may think flying an airplane that can't climb but a few hundred feet per minute in rough terrain and high winds is unprofessional, but it would only indicate a lack of experience to say so. You may think that flying under a powerline is foolhardy, but you would have to be very inexperienced in that type of operation to not know it isn't, that it's sometimes necessary in certain kinds of professional aviation.
Don't simply make blanket statements in areas where you have no experience. Certainly don't blast me for stating otherwise, as I do have the experience to make those statements. I was there; the moments didn't constitute an emergency. Perhaps for someone else, or under other circumstances, they might have been emergencies. It is not my place to say.
Do I consider an engine failure an emergency? In most cases, most of the engine failures I've had, no. I've had them in single engine piston airplanes, and multi engine turbine airplanes, and not yet has one become an emergency. That's not to say it won't. However, it hasn't yet. Those who are going to blast me for such a "cowboy" or "cavalier" attitude should tell me all about their vast experience having engine failures or inflight fires, and I'll be happy to listen.
It has nothing to do with being "macho." That's for wet behind the ears kids to who such things mean a tinkers **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**. For me, it makes no difference.
Two years ago I experienced five engine failures in a four month period. Before anyone yaks off about poor maintenance issues, make sure you know what you're talking about and have experience in extreme environments where these things occur, lest you speak far out of turn. I've heard it all before, and usually by those without the experience to talk, or the place to stand in.
One of those failures was a V1 cut. It involved an engine rollback just prior to v1 (which occurs when taking the runway in that operation, because once the power comes up, you're committed). After shutdown, we managed 300' in the pattern for a return and landed. The base rolled crash rescue for us; we were too busy with the airplane to worry about talking to anybody, nor would it have helped. Was that an emergency? It was certainly a handfull, but declaring anything, and talking to anybody was absolutely out of the question at the time.
I recall posting comments about my view on inflight emergencies once some time ago here. I received all kinds of scathing editorials and private messages by those who had experienced the gamut in the simulator, but never in real life. Some time later an individual wrote back and stated that he had learned what it was I was talking about, and I believe him. He has the experience to know, now.
I knew an individual who left a position with an operator to go to work for an airline. He was assigned an experienced captain, for IOE line work. The captain mentioned that he had dealt with an in-flight emergency only a week before. Interested to learn the new business, this individual asked about the emergency. The captain said he had lost his primary inverter.
The individual asked what the emergency had been. That was it. The primary inverter. Ahh. The captain asked the individual what sort of experience he had with emergencies. The individual rattled off a list of things that had occured in the past year, including hydraulic failures, fires, structural cracks and failures, etc. The captain was aghast. The individual quit a few days later; he said he couldn't identify with people who thought something so piddly was an emergency; he went back to the operator to work. In a way, I feel the same.
Then again, I've worked around enough people that feel a spot on their white shirt is an emergency, I have developed a certain level of contempt for them. I've met enough flight instructors who are afraid of the student and the airplane that I'm wary of pilots and instructors until they prove themselves. My present temporary employer hired a pilot last year to fly the airplane I'm flying, doing the job I'm doing. That pilot had his first fire in the airplane, and immediately quit when he landed. During a going fire. He was terrified of the airplane and what he was required to do with it, and the conditions he was required to fly into, and the circumstances under which he had to do it. Quit on the spot after one sortie. To him, I imagine life itself is a big emergency. Better he quit than he kill himself and take a good airplane out of service.
An engine failure is NOT an emergency of itself. Certainly it can be, and I did clearly state before that if emergency authority is necessary, it should be used. However, I have too much experience with these things in actual fact to believe that any one thing is automatically an emergency, bar nothing. It's just not true. I've had fires and fire indications many times, and not yet has one developed into an emergency. I've dealt with them and continued the operation as necessary. This isn't cowboy or macho; it's doing a job professionally and in the manner that the job requires, and getting the job done.
You might think running an airplane down a steep mountain slope in smoke and flame is cowboy, but you'd be wrong. You may think flying an airplane that can't climb but a few hundred feet per minute in rough terrain and high winds is unprofessional, but it would only indicate a lack of experience to say so. You may think that flying under a powerline is foolhardy, but you would have to be very inexperienced in that type of operation to not know it isn't, that it's sometimes necessary in certain kinds of professional aviation.
Don't simply make blanket statements in areas where you have no experience. Certainly don't blast me for stating otherwise, as I do have the experience to make those statements. I was there; the moments didn't constitute an emergency. Perhaps for someone else, or under other circumstances, they might have been emergencies. It is not my place to say.
airnik
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In regards to GA, I've worked both sides of the "declaring an emergency". And in most cases, it's always best to declare an emergency. All in all, it is tax payer's money, but you are getting the benefit of having a skilled crew at your side. I've seen gear-up landings, as well as precautionary landings. If you're in a Bonanza, most likely it won't take more than 20 minutes to remove your aircraft from the active (maybe less from the "other" runway"). With regard to the precautionary landings; sure the fire crews will most likely roll, but all in all it's better to be on the safe side right? With those precautionary landings, the fire crew stay stationed at their "predeterminded areas" and just sit still. And even if it is a "precautionary landing" when the fire crews do roll, all they do is take your personal info (as well as the airport rep) and that is all that it is. Period. Sorry for the long soap box lecture, but in my experience (on both sides) if in doubt, declare an emergency. More often than not (from an a/p mgmt standpoint) if it's nothing major, nothing MAJOR will result from it. But if my flying duties are impared, bottom line, I'll declare an emergency. Most often than not the FAA and the airport admin are most likely willing to work with you.
BOTTOM LINE: If there is a question as to whether or not you should declare an emergency, then by all means DECLARE AN EMERGENCY. It's better to explain on the ground than to have Monday-morning quarterbacks second-guess your logic.
BOTTOM LINE: If there is a question as to whether or not you should declare an emergency, then by all means DECLARE AN EMERGENCY. It's better to explain on the ground than to have Monday-morning quarterbacks second-guess your logic.
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airnik
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One other thing. If any of you have had the unfortunate chance of having an aviation accident give the NTSB a call and request the full file, which is called the docket. Anyway, the number for the NTSB to contact is 202-314-6100. Not sure if they charge for this yet, but it will contain pretty much everything the NTSB and FAA has on your case. Very imformative.
Regards,
-Airnik
Regards,
-Airnik
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airnik
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One last bit of info: I saw one guy land gear-up three (yes three) times in a retract, at KSUS. Upon the third time, he said (basically) that f*** it, i'm going to helicopters. As far as I know, he's been flying R-44's for the past 5 years. Just goes to show you that if you have enough money,.......
regards,
-airnik
regards,
-airnik
Typhoon1244
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Wow.
Avbug, in the V1 cut you described...let me make sure I understand. You took (I'm guessing, based on your 300' altitude) a 50% power loss, came back around in the pattern, and landed without saying a word on the radio? I'm not so sure that keeping the guys on the ground completely in the dark is a good idea, no matter how busy you are. (Were you the only guy in the airplane?)
You said over and over that in the situations you've been in, declaring would not have affected the outcome. Then why not do it? It costs you nothing...and could gain you everything. If it's not a question of macho, then what's the problem?
Yeah, I have less than 5,000 hours and haven't had a triple engine failure every month for the last five years. I've never declared an emergency for "a spot on [my] white shirt," either. I did declare for (1) a 100% power loss, (2) a left main that wouldn't extend, (2) a total hydraulic system failure, (4) two flaps-up landings, and (5) a severe turbulence encounter at 500' on base. I hate tooting my own horn, but I believe I handled each of these situations fairly well.
Please explain to me why it was somehow unprofessional of me to declare these emergencies. I'm not out to lynch anybody, I just want to understand this mind-set, because right now, I don't...and I don't see how experiencing any more emergencies is going to change my mind.
Avbug, in the V1 cut you described...let me make sure I understand. You took (I'm guessing, based on your 300' altitude) a 50% power loss, came back around in the pattern, and landed without saying a word on the radio? I'm not so sure that keeping the guys on the ground completely in the dark is a good idea, no matter how busy you are. (Were you the only guy in the airplane?)
You said over and over that in the situations you've been in, declaring would not have affected the outcome. Then why not do it? It costs you nothing...and could gain you everything. If it's not a question of macho, then what's the problem?
Yeah, I have less than 5,000 hours and haven't had a triple engine failure every month for the last five years. I've never declared an emergency for "a spot on [my] white shirt," either. I did declare for (1) a 100% power loss, (2) a left main that wouldn't extend, (2) a total hydraulic system failure, (4) two flaps-up landings, and (5) a severe turbulence encounter at 500' on base. I hate tooting my own horn, but I believe I handled each of these situations fairly well.
Please explain to me why it was somehow unprofessional of me to declare these emergencies. I'm not out to lynch anybody, I just want to understand this mind-set, because right now, I don't...and I don't see how experiencing any more emergencies is going to change my mind.
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airnik
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Typhoon1244
<Please explain to me why it was somehow unprofessional of me to declare these emergencies. I'm not out to lynch anybody, I just want to understand this mind-set, because right now, I don't...and I don't see how experiencing any more emergencies is going to change my mind.Please explain to me why it was somehow unprofessional of me to declare these emergencies. I'm not out to lynch anybody, I just want to understand this mind-set, because right now, I don't...and I don't see how experiencing any more emergencies is going to change my mind.>
If you keep your mouth shut, the FAA will surely have you by the b@lls.
I stilll adamantly believe that it is not only neccessary but prudent to declare an emergency, especially if your "FLYING ABILITY" is impaired. PERIOD.
-Airnik
<Please explain to me why it was somehow unprofessional of me to declare these emergencies. I'm not out to lynch anybody, I just want to understand this mind-set, because right now, I don't...and I don't see how experiencing any more emergencies is going to change my mind.Please explain to me why it was somehow unprofessional of me to declare these emergencies. I'm not out to lynch anybody, I just want to understand this mind-set, because right now, I don't...and I don't see how experiencing any more emergencies is going to change my mind.>
If you keep your mouth shut, the FAA will surely have you by the b@lls.
I stilll adamantly believe that it is not only neccessary but prudent to declare an emergency, especially if your "FLYING ABILITY" is impaired. PERIOD.
-Airnik
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