DALPA returning to table a positive!

[XRMEFLYER]

XREMFLYER,

Despite all of your tough talk, you know that you would do the same as the mainliners IF YOU WERE IN THEIR POSITION - you wouldn't just "give in" without understanding how DAL management would proceed (new strategic plan). You're right - "fairness" is all relative in the business world. But I am pretty sure you wouldn't just accept anything management threw at you.

Sure I would and I wish them all the best in that. I have not once advocated bending over for management, just stop with the need for affirmation and sympathy already, it's embarrassing!

To paraphrase a certain demographic group in our country "It's a mainline thing, we wouldn't understand."

 

[Tim47SIP]

hevyset

First of all, what is your deffinition of EQUITABLE? Is it only give back enough to break even, make a profit, force others to give more? Just curious. Which leads me to the next statement.


I wonder how the tone on this board would change if DCI wages were ALSO being reduced (let's say down to industry average - or a threat of bankruptcy)? Would the ASA and Comair guys change their pro-managment tones a bit? Interesting how things might change if YOU were also impacted...

At ASA we are a few percentage points below industry average, and Comair is only a couple points above industry average. What would you have us give? 10% sound good? Of course that would put us well below industry average. Here is the deal, if DALPA has to go to 10% below industry average, then we should to. If DALPA stays well above industry average, then there is no reason to ask us to go below industry average to supliment your reduction in pay. Which leads me to a third question.

What will you guys do when GG lays down a reduction plan with no negotiating allowed. What if GG's plan is unacceptable to DALPA and is not equitable enough for them. DALPA will certainly get a raw deal if a BK judge is to decide your pay structure. I truely hope this goes EQUITABLE for you guys as I know you all have families and loved ones to take care of. I just don't think there will be a whole lot of negotiating going on. But you never know.

 

[Heavy Set]

Afellowaviator,

If you think all Delta pilots feel that way you are crazy. Yes, there probably are some old, fat, Southern-boy Delta pilots who advocate that I am sure. But many would just prefer stability (at least those who are within furlough range). Any Delta pilot who advocates that saying is probably at the pinnacle of the seniority list and he doesn't care too much about the future because he will be retiring in the next few years and he wants to max out his pension (if the pension fund isn't depleted or reduced). That's a radical viewpoint and I haven't heard it from my 6-7 friends at Delta - not one says that. They will be relieved when negotiations are consummated. Nobody likes to read the dire predictions in the newspapers everyday - but at the same time, nobody is willing to blindly accept management's first proposal - that's not a negotiation. Cuts will be viewed as an investment in Delta's future - a future that will likely be made more clear with the upcoming strategic review. If you would just take management's plan without considering all of the factors then you are naive.

And you should be ashamed of yourself for your CRAPPY team-player attitude. You too are a member of the admittedly fractured Delta "family" and you should at least be a little supportive. I am glad to hear you are so looking forward to the lowering of the salary bar. Perhaps you would be happy with Mesa wages one day.

Tim,

First, I don't think the creditors would allow things to go too far in the tank because they would have a lot to lose financially in a bankruptcy or worse. Second, the shareholders would likely sue management for not protecting their interests - shareholders would be the last to be recouped in a bankruptcy. Grinstein also needs to renegotiate debt payments - something that he has yet to do effectively (you can alter the terms to reduce the immediate payments because Delta has sufficient collatoral). Clearly DALPA is taking more initiative now so I am hopeful that more sincere negotiations will take place soon. But don't expect the mainliners to just bend over and accept concessions without a clearer plan and without a little give-and-take. Keep in mind that managements' bonuses are based on the amount of concessions they can draw from the pilots - is anyone going to cap GG's bonus level?

 

[DLslug]

Let's keep it short and simple;

I and most Delta pilots are willing to give paycuts to whatever it takes to improve our company's situation.

I have heard only one pilot (count that, one..1...1...1) that said wait to take what the BK judge gives us.

I do not have any ill-will to any DCI affiliate pilot. I wish you all the best in the places your career takes you.

I think many of you have the general sentiment of the Delta pilot group all wrong.

All for now,

DLslug

 

[dtfl]

max pay???

Huh?
Ok - lets see - I am a Delta pilot. I welcome a pay cut as we need to get back in line with what the market will bear - also I was happier than a pig in sh*t to be hired at the old pay scale anyway.

Ok, friends -

I have 5 friends, all of whom are Delta pilots, in the AF Reserves that feel this way

2 - welcome pay cuts, but want it equitable and want to see how it will benefit the company (meaning they are willing yet suspicious)
1- Schoolhouse instructor - welcomes a cut to ensure the future of the airline
2 - welcome cuts so we can get back to profitability.

So there are 6 viewpoints.

Every time I log on all I see is the RJ guys bashing mainline. I will tell you what I tell Enlisted folks that bitch about officers. Go to college, become one. You are tired of mainline guys making money and controlling your fate in RJs? You could have went into the military and flown fixed wing and went right to mainline if not then you would have chosen the route you did. Why the bashing? Either way - you guys need to realize that one day you will WANT to be at a main line carrier and that attitude will show and you will be flying that 70 seat RJ for the rest of your life.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Afellowaviator,

If you think all Delta pilots feel that way you are crazy. Yes, there probably are some old, fat, Southern-boy Delta pilots who advocate that I am sure. But many would just prefer stability (at least those who are within furlough range). Any Delta pilot who advocates that saying is probably at the pinnacle of the seniority list and he doesn't care too much about the future because he will be retiring in the next few years and he wants to max out his pension (if the pension fund isn't depleted or reduced). That's a radical viewpoint and I haven't heard it from my 6-7 friends at Delta - not one says that. They will be relieved when negotiations are consummated. Nobody likes to read the dire predictions in the newspapers everyday - but at the same time, nobody is willing to blindly accept management's first proposal - that's not a negotiation. Cuts will be viewed as an investment in Delta's future - a future that will likely be made more clear with the upcoming strategic review. If you would just take management's plan without considering all of the factors then you are naive.


Lighten up Francis.

I was being a little facicious, (spelling?).

All we have heard from Delta pilots since the failed PID is that we evil Comair pilots wanted DOH. And the reasoning was that some one "heard" a Comair pilot say so. Now you people are saying Delta pilots are not demanding "max pay to the last day". And are making the argument that maybe a "few" hardliners may be quilty of this but it is not the general consensus.

This is the same thing we have been saying about the DOH, but to this very day, several Delta pilots still bring this up on these boards, General, and make it an issue.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Huh?
Ok - lets see - I am a Delta pilot. I welcome a pay cut as we need to get back in line with what the market will bear - also I was happier than a pig in sh*t to be hired at the old pay scale anyway.

Ok, friends -

I have 5 friends, all of whom are Delta pilots, in the AF Reserves that feel this way

2 - welcome pay cuts, but want it equitable and want to see how it will benefit the company (meaning they are willing yet suspicious)
1- Schoolhouse instructor - welcomes a cut to ensure the future of the airline
2 - welcome cuts so we can get back to profitability.

So there are 6 viewpoints.

Every time I log on all I see is the RJ guys bashing mainline. I will tell you what I tell Enlisted folks that bitch about officers. Go to college, become one. You are tired of mainline guys making money and controlling your fate in RJs? You could have went into the military and flown fixed wing and went right to mainline if not then you would have chosen the route you did. Why the bashing? Either way - you guys need to realize that one day you will WANT to be at a main line carrier and that attitude will show and you will be flying that 70 seat RJ for the rest of your life.

Oh God. Here we go again with this Military Officer thing. We at Comair have several Military Officers flying and taking good care of their families. Whats your point? Uh, Sir...

 

[InclusiveScope]

Every time I log on all I see is the RJ guys bashing mainline. I will tell you what I tell Enlisted folks that bitch about officers. Go to college, become one. You are tired of mainline guys making money and controlling your fate in RJs? You could have went into the military and flown fixed wing and went right to mainline if not then you would have chosen the route you did. Why the bashing? Either way - you guys need to realize that one day you will WANT to be at a main line carrier and that attitude will show and you will be flying that 70 seat RJ for the rest of your life.

Here we go again with elitist BS. I have 8000 hours. No accidents, violations, or DUIs. I have the college degree. Many of my FOs are former Air Force, Navy, and Army pilots. Some of them a retired military pilots with 20+ years as military pilots. Get off your high horse - you don't walk on water!

 

[N2264J]

Re: DALPA returning to table...

And you should be ashamed of yourself for your CRAPPY team-player attitude. You too are a member of the admittedly fractured Delta "family" and you should at least be a little supportive.

That's irony, right? You're engaging in irony.

Comair and ASA pilots don't need any condescending lectures about being team players from mainline pilots who have no idea what that means.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Here we go again with elitist BS. I have 8000 hours. No accidents, violations, or DUIs. I have the college degree. Many of my FOs are former Air Force, Navy, and Army pilots. Some of them a retired military pilots with 20+ years as military pilots. Get off your high horse - you don't walk on water!

Amen!

 

[XRMEFLYER]

That's irony, right? You're engaging in irony.

Comair and ASA pilots don't need any condescending lectures about being team players from mainline pilots who have no idea what that means.

Amen again!

 

[N2264J]

Re: DALPA returning to table...

Huh? Every time I log on all I see is the RJ guys bashing mainline. I will tell you what I tell Enlisted folks that bitch about officers. Go to college, become one. You are tired of mainline guys making money and controlling your fate in RJs? You could have went into the military and flown fixed wing and went right to mainline if not then you would have chosen the route you did. Why the bashing? Either way - you guys need to realize that one day you will WANT to be at a main line carrier and that attitude will show and you will be flying that 70 seat RJ for the rest of your life.

As a retired military officer who is flying for an airline that happens to be growing and profitable, I tell you with some regret that your elitest, dismissive atitude here is an embarrassment to me. The pilots I fly with have been union members flying Delta passengers in the same weather mainline flys in, down to minimums, day in and day out, for two decades while you've managed to log a few hours a month in an C-130. Tell me, did you join the Air Force out of a sense of service to your country or were you just one of the opportunists building credentials for a lucrative airline career?

When you've been around the industry for a few years, you may figure it out but in the meantime, I would advise you to keep your opinions of yourself to yourself.

 

[dtfl]

You guys are funny

Elitist? HA. You guys will cry about anything won't you. I'm sorry all you retired OFFICERS and gusy with LOTS OF HOURS. I guess everyone else is wrong or has their nose in the air. Firs t- I am far from an elitist. And as for you who said I am an embarrasment - I'll put my career up against yours anyday buddy - you must have missed the boat in training. There are Enlisted and Officers. There are customs and courtesies, and there are rules. When Es cry and complain I tell them...they volunteered, they knew the rules - follow them or change them.
Same thing.
All I hear is guys bashing mainline. Its TRUE. I am not above anyone. I worked as a reservist to get by for years...you didn't hear me bashing anyone...hell, I applied to many airlines, even some that you are working at - because I wanted to get into the industry. My point is many of you guys can't wait to take a shot at anyone who is a mainline pilot. You have quite a bit of anger built up, and if you keep that attitude..it will get you no where.
That's all. You guys need help.
And ALL regional guys are team players and no mainline are? You make me laugh so hard I am lamost puking. What an IDIOTIC statement. You guys really do drink some kool-aid when you get hired. I know regional guys who would step on their own Mother to get to another airline. Oh.......but that must not be true. All you guys are team players. SO let me ask you - and this is rhetorical since I am tired of all your attitudes......when you got hired at your regional - what were your career goals? STAY there are whine? or move to the mainline? Methinks me knows the answer. Now go look in the mirror and say the answer out loud.
If yall don't have a solution - why not stop with all the complaining?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Huh?

Every time I log on all I see is the RJ guys bashing mainline. I will tell you what I tell Enlisted folks that bitch about officers. Go to college, become one. You are tired of mainline guys making money and controlling your fate in RJs?

You could have went into the military and flown fixed wing and went right to mainline if not then you would have chosen the route you did. Why the bashing? Either way - you guys need to realize that one day you will WANT to be at a main line carrier and that attitude will show and you will be flying that 70 seat RJ for the rest of your life.

No, we are tired of ALPA allowing some preferred pilot groups to abuse the bargaining status of the union to divide and conquer pilots at other airlines. ASA and Comair pilots simply want the ability to participate in the negotiations over our wages and working conditions - and the ability to ratify our contract with our employer.

Look at the numbers, around half of airline pilots are at the airlines that ALPA does not treat as "preferred" groups. We pilots are denied representation through a jerrymandered system of ALPA governance that results in all of us sharing one EVP, while the "preferred" pilot groups each get their own EVP. The result is that we are left to compete with eachother, lowering the standard of the profession because ALPA will not allow us equal representation to our employers.

You, like many mainline pilots, have enjoyed the good fortune of going straight from your government job to another job with a huge sense of entitlement. You have not had to face the problems with ALPA's apartied representational system.

Be no doubt about it - the pilots who feed you customers in their 75,000 lb jets are pilots who's profession deserves protection just as much as yours does.

The RJ's guys do not have anything against mainline pilots. We just don't equate luck and timing with entitlement. We don't buy off on the idea that you are superior, because at least on paper, you are not. We feel we should have equal rights to representation in our union and understandably get defensive when your MEC hijacks the union and tries to destroy us ( IE ALPA's J4J protocol which just resulted is mainline guys flying 737 replacements for less than ASA's pilots fly ATRs for )

You probably don't realize that your representatives restricted me from flying 105 seat jets, all the way down to 50 seat jets. When I complain about it, you tell me to find another job, all while your representatives are negotiating to take away my job. Hey, why don't you find another job and leave mine alone!

 

[Heavy Set]

dtfl,

Good post.

 

[~~~^~~~]

And ALL regional guys are team players and no mainline are? You make me laugh so hard I am lamost puking. What an IDIOTIC statement. You guys really do drink some kool-aid when you get hired. I know regional guys who would step on their own Mother to get to another airline. Oh.......but that must not be true. All you guys are team players. SO let me ask you - and this is rhetorical since I am tired of all your attitudes......when you got hired at your regional - what were your career goals? STAY there are whine? or move to the mainline? Methinks me knows the answer. Now go look in the mirror and say the answer out loud.
If yall don't have a solution - why not stop with all the complaining?

No the Regional guys are not team players, your representatives in collusion with Delta management have made that clear. As the Comair guys indicated by walking off the job, you will learn the ASA pilots are not very pleased with the treatment we are getting from the ALPA / Delta tag team effort. ASA pilots are in the position to shut this place down - even if you do take a cut - so you had better be praying we feel like team players when we are released.

As stated, your MEC negotiated my current job expectations from 105 to 50 seats.... It was not my "expectation" that ALPA would enable mainline's predatory tendencies to effectively steal back what had already been sold in exchange for higher wages.

It is likely the actions of your MEC will result in AirTran and Jet Blue's continued growth. Since your MEC would rather attack us than encourage us to happilly subsidize your losses while feeding you customers - many of us will probably use our thousands of hours of PIC time and degrees to get hired at the next generation of "major" airlines which shun ALPA representation.

When we are there - I'm just wondering if we can "staple" you. Perhaps a flow through would be better so we can give hiring preferences to "regional" pilots with thousands of hours of command time under their belt. After all, RJ pilots have much more in common with 717 pilots than those who single handedly operated a weapons platform - right? I'm not serious but bigotry is bigotry and the only folks who like it are the bigots.

~~~^~~~

 

[N2264J]

DALPA returning to table...

Elitist? HA...There are Enlisted and Officers. There are customs and courtesies, and there are rules. When Es cry and complain I tell them...they volunteered, they knew the rules - follow them or change them. Same thing.

It's not the same thing at all, Your Highness. "Regional" pilots are not Es. We don't work for you. We are not subordinate to you. We're all supposed to have equal standing in this union. We don't like the idea of "team player" only if it benefits you and we sure don't care for your attitude of entitlement.

I suggest trying to push your weight around on the enlisted next drill weekend (if they'll let you) since that's seems to be an integral part of who you are.

 

[TonyC]

If this is true, then why the press release stating:

Delta Air Lines chief executive Gerald Grinstein said . . .

Please tell me you're not serious.


Psssssst. One word: PROPOGANDA

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Heavy Set,

no it wasn't.

 

[Caveman]

Deleted