DAL, Why Vote No???

[AirportBum]

Just trying to understand the anti-JPWA sentiments I'm hearing.

Most of the grumblings seem to be that there was not much (if any) improvement over the LOA 19 improvements.

Exactly why are you guys opposed to it?

PS, try to keep the answers to the point. I can't make it through many more 10 paragraph diatribes.

 

[Muskycat]

Just trying to understand the anti-JPWA sentiments I'm hearing.

Most of the grumblings seem to be that there was not much (if any) improvement over the LOA 19 improvements.

Exactly why are you guys opposed to it?

PS, try to keep the answers to the point. I can't make it through many more 10 paragraph diatribes.

It makes no difference whether it's LOA 19 or JPWA either stakes are the same. The big problem is there is no SLI yet.
What good is a contract when you don't know your seniority.
I have no problem with NWA guys and gals at parity and I think most would agree. It's not having the SLI issue settled yet that is the problem.

 

[Helos2Galaxy]

I want to see a SLI. I see the NWA pilots getting considerably more than I am getting with this (basically LOA 19 w/ a little more) and due to that, I think they should not get a DOH or even a one to one integration as a result of the windfall in money and benefits. Furthermore, NWA may have to furlough due to DC-9 and 747-200s leaving. I don't want to subsidize their furloughs.

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

I want to see a SLI. I see the NWA pilots getting considerably more than I am getting with this (basically LOA 19 w/ a little more) and due to that, I think they should not get a DOH or even a one to one integration as a result of the windfall in money and benefits. Furthermore, NWA may have to furlough due to DC-9 and 747-200s leaving. I don't want to subsidize their furloughs.

Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner. I think this is the major concern for most everyone less than 80% seniority. I'm waiting for the road shows to make up my mind.

 

[Superpilot92]

The SLI will be done in the same process regardless of the contract so by voting no you will get the same SLI but possibly lose the gains. Think about it.

 

[Sedona16]

I want to see a SLI. I see the NWA pilots getting considerably more than I am getting with this (basically LOA 19 w/ a little more) and due to that, I think they should not get a DOH or even a one to one integration as a result of the windfall in money and benefits. Furthermore, NWA may have to furlough due to DC-9 and 747-200s leaving. I don't want to subsidize their furloughs.

My sentiments exactly! This is definately a case of putting the cart before the horse.

 

[AirportBum]

I certainly understand the concern over the SLI.

Does anyone know why the JPWA was the first priority, rather than negotiating a list first?

What does the DAL MEC say about going into this without an agreed SLI?

Personally, I don't think you have to worry about DOH, or even 1-1 any more than we have to worry about 1000 "phantom" DAL pilots being figured in. But I do understand the concern.

Doing it this way leaves us blind going in - for both sides. However, with both groups having a say during negotiations, and if need be picking the arbitrators, this may be as good as it gets.

Bottom line, is it likely that voting this down will result in an SLI more to your liking? Or will the list likely look very similar either way, while at the same time leaving contract improvements on the table?

We already left improvements on the table in Feb. I'd hate to see this get whittled down even more just to end up in the same place seniority-wise.

No flame here, just honest questions as I try to understand the DAL pilots' perspective.

 

[Speedbird34]

I want to see a SLI. I see the NWA pilots getting considerably more than I am getting with this (basically LOA 19 w/ a little more) and due to that, I think they should not get a DOH or even a one to one integration as a result of the windfall in money and benefits. Furthermore, NWA may have to furlough due to DC-9 and 747-200s leaving. I don't want to subsidize their furloughs.

My sentiments plus more!

 

[nonstop]

Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner. I think this is the major concern for most everyone less than 80% seniority. I'm waiting for the road shows to make up my mind.

You really think you'll be able to vote while on probation? You guys are so full of hot air.

 

[AirportBum]

You really think you'll be able to vote while on probation? You guys are so full of hot air.

You lashing out like this does nothing but further divide us. Let's keep it civil for once.

 

[Muskycat]

You really think you'll be able to vote while on probation? You guys are so full of hot air.

I'm going on 9 years. You know something I don't?

 

[Muskycat]

Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner. I think this is the major concern for most everyone less than 80% seniority. I'm waiting for the road shows to make up my mind.

I too am awaiting the road shows. But a 5% (inflationary) raise for me just don't cut the risk considering the SLI that is undone. Even the senior guys are worried about this one.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

My question is this. With the SLI framework agreement stating that SLI negotiations will start no later than 7/8/8 (Next Tues) and go for on month (8/8/8) and at that time if there is no agreement we have until the 15th of Aug 8/15/8 to make a list of items we disagree on. If we cannot resolve them we go to arbitration. All that will be done no later than 11/15/8.
With this time line are we not going to start the SLI issue before we vote on the JPWA? I thought that we were told that would not happen.
I cannot seem to get a straight answer about this.
There are also many Memorandums and LOA's that have been posted today that have me thinking.
The one about early outs for retirees makes me wonder why the union would want them to leave unless they know we are going to lay off. Read em, there is a lot there.
Even with and SLI and a JPWA it is going to be very difficult to park planes. We will have to have two certificates until 12-15 months DCC. If they park the 9's or 88 and it would effectively furlough someone off the other list, what will we do. We cannot even try to bring the other pilots over to the DAL or NWA operating certificate. Lots of very big issues with that. Because of this, I think that is why they gave us a two year no furlough clause. Fact is that they will not be able to do so after these agreements take effect and we have a single certificate. If they tried they would either have to furlough a ton, or get sued for doing it wrong. That leaves us with two years of wondering or them doing it now. Lets hope in two years when they can have their will, the economy will be doing a lot better and the 9's and 88's are replaced with something on the mainline side of the fence.
As a side note. I do not think that voting yes or no will change the outcome of the SLI. The fact is that they are doing it this way so that we are bound by the PWA and therefore cannot vote ALPA off property. Even if we agreed that the PWA would not come to a vote until after the SLI, I think the SLI would probably end in the same result.
It stinks but I think the NWA guys are correct. The only reason to really vote this down is to spite them. We know we get our money either way.

 

[hockeypilot44]

My question is this. With the SLI framework agreement stating that SLI negotiations will start no later than 7/8/8 (Next Tues) and go for on month (8/8/8) and at that time if there is no agreement we have until the 15th of Aug 8/15/8 to make a list of items we disagree on. If we cannot resolve them we go to arbitration. All that will be done no later than 11/15/8.
With this time line are we not going to start the SLI issue before we vote on the JPWA? I thought that we were told that would not happen.
I cannot seem to get a straight answer about this.
There are also many Memorandums and LOA's that have been posted today that have me thinking.
The one about early outs for retirees makes me wonder why the union would want them to leave unless they know we are going to lay off. Read em, there is a lot there.
Even with and SLI and a JPWA it is going to be very difficult to park planes. We will have to have two certificates until 12-15 months DCC. If they park the 9's or 88 and it would effectively furlough someone off the other list, what will we do. We cannot even try to bring the other pilots over to the DAL or NWA operating certificate. Lots of very big issues with that. Because of this, I think that is why they gave us a two year no furlough clause. Fact is that they will not be able to do so after these agreements take effect and we have a single certificate. If they tried they would either have to furlough a ton, or get sued for doing it wrong. That leaves us with two years of wondering or them doing it now. Lets hope in two years when they can have their will, the economy will be doing a lot better and the 9's and 88's are replaced with something on the mainline side of the fence.
As a side note. I do not think that voting yes or no will change the outcome of the SLI. The fact is that they are doing it this way so that we are bound by the PWA and therefore cannot vote ALPA off property. Even if we agreed that the PWA would not come to a vote until after the SLI, I think the SLI would probably end in the same result.
It stinks but I think the NWA guys are correct. The only reason to really vote this down is to spite them. We know we get our money either way.

I agree with your post.

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

You really think you'll be able to vote while on probation? You guys are so full of hot air.

I'm not on probation. Once a Delta pilot hits 400 hours they are off probation or, 12 months whichever occurs first. Most everyone hired since last fall is a full voting member.

Yay, more XJT guys at Delta once the merger is done! :beer:

 

[Muskycat]

My question is this. With the SLI framework agreement stating that SLI negotiations will start no later than 7/8/8 (Next Tues) and go for on month (8/8/8) and at that time if there is no agreement we have until the 15th of Aug 8/15/8 to make a list of items we disagree on. If we cannot resolve them we go to arbitration. All that will be done no later than 11/15/8.
With this time line are we not going to start the SLI issue before we vote on the JPWA? I thought that we were told that would not happen.
I cannot seem to get a straight answer about this.
There are also many Memorandums and LOA's that have been posted today that have me thinking.
The one about early outs for retirees makes me wonder why the union would want them to leave unless they know we are going to lay off. Read em, there is a lot there.
Even with and SLI and a JPWA it is going to be very difficult to park planes. We will have to have two certificates until 12-15 months DCC. If they park the 9's or 88 and it would effectively furlough someone off the other list, what will we do. We cannot even try to bring the other pilots over to the DAL or NWA operating certificate. Lots of very big issues with that. Because of this, I think that is why they gave us a two year no furlough clause. Fact is that they will not be able to do so after these agreements take effect and we have a single certificate. If they tried they would either have to furlough a ton, or get sued for doing it wrong. That leaves us with two years of wondering or them doing it now. Lets hope in two years when they can have their will, the economy will be doing a lot better and the 9's and 88's are replaced with something on the mainline side of the fence.
As a side note. I do not think that voting yes or no will change the outcome of the SLI. The fact is that they are doing it this way so that we are bound by the PWA and therefore cannot vote ALPA off property. Even if we agreed that the PWA would not come to a vote until after the SLI, I think the SLI would probably end in the same result.
It stinks but I think the NWA guys are correct. The only reason to really vote this down is to spite them. We know we get our money either way.

When you talk about early outs, you mean at NWA?
The "Layoff Protection Package" that came out June 27th? Or is there something at delta I missed?

And no, I've not heard of anyone voting this down out of spite.
Like I said earlier what good is a contract when you don't know where your seniority is going to shack out?

 

[Superpilot92]

My question is this. With the SLI framework agreement stating that SLI negotiations will start no later than 7/8/8 (Next Tues) and go for on month (8/8/8) and at that time if there is no agreement we have until the 15th of Aug 8/15/8 to make a list of items we disagree on. If we cannot resolve them we go to arbitration. All that will be done no later than 11/15/8.
With this time line are we not going to start the SLI issue before we vote on the JPWA? I thought that we were told that would not happen.
I cannot seem to get a straight answer about this.
There are also many Memorandums and LOA's that have been posted today that have me thinking.
The one about early outs for retirees makes me wonder why the union would want them to leave unless they know we are going to lay off. Read em, there is a lot there.
Even with and SLI and a JPWA it is going to be very difficult to park planes. We will have to have two certificates until 12-15 months DCC. If they park the 9's or 88 and it would effectively furlough someone off the other list, what will we do. We cannot even try to bring the other pilots over to the DAL or NWA operating certificate. Lots of very big issues with that. Because of this, I think that is why they gave us a two year no furlough clause. Fact is that they will not be able to do so after these agreements take effect and we have a single certificate. If they tried they would either have to furlough a ton, or get sued for doing it wrong. That leaves us with two years of wondering or them doing it now. Lets hope in two years when they can have their will, the economy will be doing a lot better and the 9's and 88's are replaced with something on the mainline side of the fence.
As a side note. I do not think that voting yes or no will change the outcome of the SLI. The fact is that they are doing it this way so that we are bound by the PWA and therefore cannot vote ALPA off property. Even if we agreed that the PWA would not come to a vote until after the SLI, I think the SLI would probably end in the same result.
It stinks but I think the NWA guys are correct. The only reason to really vote this down is to spite them. We know we get our money either way.

I agree with you whole post. I hope more of your side realizes what you wrote and i made Bold. The SLI will get done the same way regardless of the outcome of the TA. Voting it down gets you the same SLI but probably with even less "goodies", not Feb to Now. Think about it. Also Anyone who has decided on how they would vote already needs to hit the roadshows before making a judgment. YOUR/OUR MECs have all the facts, we dont. Doing so is nothing more than giving your MEC the finger after they Unanimously ratified this TA in YOUR/OUR best interests. Dont be so quick to turn your backs on your Reps after you stood behind them up to this point. Get informed, then vote

 

[nwaredtail]

It will pass both groups by at least 70%.

 

[Superpilot92]

When you talk about early outs, you mean at NWA?
The "Layoff Protection Package" that came out June 27th? Or is there something at delta I missed?

And no, I've not heard of anyone voting this down out of spite.
Like I said earlier what good is a contract when you don't know where your seniority is going to shack out?

Your seniority will be the same regardless of the TA. Both MECs have already stated they have the framework already laid out on how the SLI process will happen. So whether you vote down the pay raises or not the SLI will be the same.

 

[Noserider76]

This also locks us into basically a bit above BK compensation through at least 2012 and probably a year or so after that. Admittedly the environment is bad now but why lock this in for so long? DL was going to start Sec 6 late next year and now we've pushed back pretty mediocre wages for the next 4 or 5 years.