DAL, Why Vote No???

[AirportBum]

Originally Posted by ACL65PILOT
As a side note. I do not think that voting yes or no will change the outcome of the SLI. The fact is that they are doing it this way so that we are bound by the PWA and therefore cannot vote ALPA off property. Even if we agreed that the PWA would not come to a vote until after the SLI, I think the SLI would probably end in the same result.

Exactly. Leaving this on the table does nothing but leave NWA guys out of the improvements. The list will happen either way, and probably turn out the same, or very close.

Originally Posted by Capt. Caucasian
Like I said earlier what good is a contract when you don't know where your seniority is going to shack out?

I agree completely, but please explain how sinking this contract will give you more control over the SLI outcome.

 

[Superpilot92]

This also locks us into basically a bit above BK compensation through at least 2012 and probably a year or so after that. Admittedly the environment is bad now but why lock this in for so long? DL was going to start Sec 6 late next year and now we've pushed back pretty mediocre wages for the next 4 or 5 years.

Its good you arent going into SEC 6 talks next year now. Even if Oil miraculously dropped tomorrow and the economy rebounded it will take time for the companies remaining to gather strength and start producing decent profits. This arrangement while maybe a little far out gives us a good shot at getting the synergies, gaining strength as 1 pilot group and collectively building our warchest to get an industry leading contract when we actually have negotiating power. Now we dont and if we wait the merger will go on regardless and the SLI will get done regardless and you may get locked into less money. Sometimes you just need to take it and run and now is that time imho considering the state of the industry. just a thought.

 

[nonstop]

I'm not on probation. Once a Delta pilot hits 400 hours they are off probation or, 12 months whichever occurs first. Most everyone hired since last fall is a full voting member.

Yay, more XJT guys at Delta once the merger is done! :beer:

Well then, that makes me a jackass! I stand corrected. :beer:

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Like I said go read all of the LOA and Memorandums of Understanding on the ALPA site. There are over 150 pages of documents there. Basically everything tied to this merger from both sides.
Let early out MOA is probably for NWA guys, but it is vague, as it should be.
The framework is there as well. Also there is a MOA between both MEC's on the SLI and discovery. It is vague but what I got from it was that pay per seat does not equate seniority of A/C or pilot. Again I may be stretching here, but it does leave a lot to interpretation.

There are protections for DAL pilots in LOA 19 that are not there in the JPWA with obvious reason. It is joint contract and favoring one side should not be included and isn't. I will say that after eight plus hrs of reading this stuff today, I am impressed with the depth at which we negotiated. I want all of this behind us, but loosing my job when I otherwise would have not is a steep price to pay. Not saying I am a no, just stating a thought. In fact if I had to vote today, it would probably be a yes.
I hope that the road shows present the facts and not try to sway the rank-and-file's vote. Basically we are all voting for our future. How we play this will determine what type of group we are for the next 30 years.

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt. Caucasian
Like I said earlier what good is a contract when you don't know where your seniority is going to shack out?

I agree completely, but please explain how sinking this contract will give you more control over the SLI outcome.

I did not write that above. Don't know who did.

 

[AirportBum]

My mistake. My cut and paste skills aren't what they used to be.

By the way, WAR EAGLE too, maybe we'll get a quarterback this year.

 

[Speedbird34]

Because I can!!

 

[~~~^~~~]

I stand corrected.

Just like the Boy in Orthopaedic shoes. He stands corrected.

 

[KCPilot]

I want to see a SLI. I see the NWA pilots getting considerably more than I am getting with this (basically LOA 19 w/ a little more) and due to that, I think they should not get a DOH or even a one to one integration as a result of the windfall in money and benefits. Furthermore, NWA may have to furlough due to DC-9 and 747-200s leaving. I don't want to subsidize their furloughs.

Ditto!

 

[ACL65PILOT]

We will subsidize their furloughs one way or the other.

 

[~~~^~~~]

True.

Fine with me. They are Delta pilots.

My SWAG is that they will come over via an entitlement bid with what they can hold without displacing Delta pilots. Makes more sense than a lot of extra training cycles on the wrong aircraft. Hence the rush to get this done.

 

[licorice]

Like I said go read all of the LOA and Memorandums of Understanding on the ALPA site. There are over 150 pages of documents there. Basically everything tied to this merger from both sides.
Let early out MOA is probably for NWA guys, but it is vague, as it should be.
The framework is there as well. Also there is a MOA between both MEC's on the SLI and discovery. It is vague but what I got from it was that pay per seat does not equate seniority of A/C or pilot. Again I may be stretching here, but it does leave a lot to interpretation.

There are protections for DAL pilots in LOA 19 that are not there in the JPWA with obvious reason. It is joint contract and favoring one side should not be included and isn't. I will say that after eight plus hrs of reading this stuff today, I am impressed with the depth at which we negotiated. I want all of this behind us, but loosing my job when I otherwise would have not is a steep price to pay. Not saying I am a no, just stating a thought. In fact if I had to vote today, it would probably be a yes.
I hope that the road shows present the facts and not try to sway the rank-and-file's vote. Basically we are all voting for our future. How we play this will determine what type of group we are for the next 30 years.

I heard this on another post, which is a little hard to believe.... pay will not be a factor in SLI? So I guess DL and NW pilots benefitted equally from the TA? This seems a little hard to believe that the DL MEC would agree to that (if it's true) There has to be something more to that story than meets the eye...

 

[~~~^~~~]

Licorice,

There is. As ACL65 posted, you have to read the whole package. Included therein is a non-prejudicial agreement that outlines the rules of engagement for SLI. It will be a negotiated settlement. If negotiations fail, then both sides have a framework for a fair arbitration.

From your MEC/LEC page, go to the merger page, in the center of the page is a list of documents. Click below to see all documents and the other agreements are listed below. Well worth your time to read them.

NWA has theirs posted also.

I could be surprised, but I think both sides will be fairly handled under the framework agreed to.

 

[Superpilot92]

What furloughs? You guys are arguing hypothetical situations, as of right now furloughs arent going to happen. On a positive note, they are working on getting some of the senior guys to jumpship which is good for all of us. DAL offered some programs on your side also, right? Both sides would prefer not to furlough and take on the added costs of training since they know any furlough would be short lived with the new planes coming. I just dont see furloughs happening UNLESS oil keeps going up. Lets hope after the 4th of july weekend it will stabilize or go back down.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

None that I have seen.
Not arguing furloughs, just what ifs and you know that.
It is an agreement with the MEC's

The DAL beef was with the 320 paying more than the larger 88. It does work both ways though.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

I'll make it simple.....

Delta Pilots have no upside as a result of this Joint contract. No improvements other than double OT pay. NWA pilots get 1000 sick bank until exhausted, big pay raises, comparable equity, a pension (frozen, but still there).

I voted yes on LOA 19 to give them time to work out improvements on TOP OF the LOA.....which never materialized. We have leverage as a group, and nobody wants to take the helm. ALPA has signed on unanimously supporting this POS, which makes me even more suspicious....oh and did I mention a 2013 amended date.....so using the usual bargaining position of management, we won't see any Section 6 improvements until 2015 at the earliest with a fraction of retro pay.....

Did someone mention the SLI?? We haven't even begun that road to Arbitration yet....

Yeah, GREAT TA ALPA(Thumbs up!!!)

Count me for a NO vote!!!

 

[Superpilot92]

None that I have seen.
Not arguing furloughs, just what ifs and you know that.
It is an agreement with the MEC's

The DAL beef was with the 320 paying more than the larger 88. It does work both ways though.

Thats not just a DAL beef, NWALPA listed those issues as 1 of their beefs also. I will find the quote for you.

 

[DTW320]

None that I have seen.
Not arguing furloughs, just what ifs and you know that.
It is an agreement with the MEC's

The DAL beef was with the 320 paying more than the larger 88. It does work both ways though.

Do you mean the 319? A320 = 148 seats.

If that was DAL's beef then it was disingenuous for them to NOT have a beef with paying the 747-400 the same as the smaller 777.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

And thus why the letter was written.

 

[DTW320]

I'll make it simple.....

Delta Pilots have no upside as a result of this Joint contract. Yet you thought LOA19 was fine right? No improvements other than double OT pay. NWA pilots get 1000 sick bank until exhausted,1000 hours that were earned over years and years and still represents a huge reduction for many pilots with balances way over 1000,big pay raises brought to parity with DAL....are you suggesting that DAL pilots should make more than NWA pilots after the merger is complete?, comparable equity see above, a pension (frozen, but still there)The frozen pension was not something NWA "got" from the joint contract....it was "gotten" from the NWA contracts from the past decades.

I voted yes on LOA 19 to give them time to work out improvements on TOP OF the LOA.....which never materialized. We have leverage as a group, and nobody wants to take the helm. ALPA has signed on unanimously supporting this POS, which makes me even more suspicious....oh and did I mention a 2013 amended date.....so using the usual bargaining position of management, we won't see any Section 6 improvements until 2015 at the earliest with a fraction of retro pay.....look around...hopefully by 2013 we will still be in business and things may have improved enough with oil/industry to have even a shot at improving anything.

Did someone mention the SLI?? We haven't even begun that road to Arbitration yet....Have you read the TA?

Yeah, GREAT TA ALPA(Thumbs up!!!)

Count me for a NO vote!!!

You should vote your conscience, but think about what the ultimate outcome of downing this may be.

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