DAL, Why Vote No???

[Muskycat]

My question is this. With the SLI framework agreement stating that SLI negotiations will start no later than 7/8/8 (Next Tues) and go for on month (8/8/8) and at that time if there is no agreement we have until the 15th of Aug 8/15/8 to make a list of items we disagree on. If we cannot resolve them we go to arbitration. All that will be done no later than 11/15/8.
With this time line are we not going to start the SLI issue before we vote on the JPWA? I thought that we were told that would not happen.
I cannot seem to get a straight answer about this.
There are also many Memorandums and LOA's that have been posted today that have me thinking.
The one about early outs for retirees makes me wonder why the union would want them to leave unless they know we are going to lay off. Read em, there is a lot there.
Even with and SLI and a JPWA it is going to be very difficult to park planes. We will have to have two certificates until 12-15 months DCC. If they park the 9's or 88 and it would effectively furlough someone off the other list, what will we do. We cannot even try to bring the other pilots over to the DAL or NWA operating certificate. Lots of very big issues with that. Because of this, I think that is why they gave us a two year no furlough clause. Fact is that they will not be able to do so after these agreements take effect and we have a single certificate. If they tried they would either have to furlough a ton, or get sued for doing it wrong. That leaves us with two years of wondering or them doing it now. Lets hope in two years when they can have their will, the economy will be doing a lot better and the 9's and 88's are replaced with something on the mainline side of the fence.
As a side note. I do not think that voting yes or no will change the outcome of the SLI. The fact is that they are doing it this way so that we are bound by the PWA and therefore cannot vote ALPA off property. Even if we agreed that the PWA would not come to a vote until after the SLI, I think the SLI would probably end in the same result.
It stinks but I think the NWA guys are correct. The only reason to really vote this down is to spite them. We know we get our money either way.

When you talk about early outs, you mean at NWA?
The "Layoff Protection Package" that came out June 27th? Or is there something at delta I missed?

And no, I've not heard of anyone voting this down out of spite.
Like I said earlier what good is a contract when you don't know where your seniority is going to shack out?

 

[Superpilot92]

My question is this. With the SLI framework agreement stating that SLI negotiations will start no later than 7/8/8 (Next Tues) and go for on month (8/8/8) and at that time if there is no agreement we have until the 15th of Aug 8/15/8 to make a list of items we disagree on. If we cannot resolve them we go to arbitration. All that will be done no later than 11/15/8.
With this time line are we not going to start the SLI issue before we vote on the JPWA? I thought that we were told that would not happen.
I cannot seem to get a straight answer about this.
There are also many Memorandums and LOA's that have been posted today that have me thinking.
The one about early outs for retirees makes me wonder why the union would want them to leave unless they know we are going to lay off. Read em, there is a lot there.
Even with and SLI and a JPWA it is going to be very difficult to park planes. We will have to have two certificates until 12-15 months DCC. If they park the 9's or 88 and it would effectively furlough someone off the other list, what will we do. We cannot even try to bring the other pilots over to the DAL or NWA operating certificate. Lots of very big issues with that. Because of this, I think that is why they gave us a two year no furlough clause. Fact is that they will not be able to do so after these agreements take effect and we have a single certificate. If they tried they would either have to furlough a ton, or get sued for doing it wrong. That leaves us with two years of wondering or them doing it now. Lets hope in two years when they can have their will, the economy will be doing a lot better and the 9's and 88's are replaced with something on the mainline side of the fence.
As a side note. I do not think that voting yes or no will change the outcome of the SLI. The fact is that they are doing it this way so that we are bound by the PWA and therefore cannot vote ALPA off property. Even if we agreed that the PWA would not come to a vote until after the SLI, I think the SLI would probably end in the same result.
It stinks but I think the NWA guys are correct. The only reason to really vote this down is to spite them. We know we get our money either way.

I agree with you whole post. I hope more of your side realizes what you wrote and i made Bold. The SLI will get done the same way regardless of the outcome of the TA. Voting it down gets you the same SLI but probably with even less "goodies", not Feb to Now. Think about it. Also Anyone who has decided on how they would vote already needs to hit the roadshows before making a judgment. YOUR/OUR MECs have all the facts, we dont. Doing so is nothing more than giving your MEC the finger after they Unanimously ratified this TA in YOUR/OUR best interests. Dont be so quick to turn your backs on your Reps after you stood behind them up to this point. Get informed, then vote

 

[nwaredtail]

It will pass both groups by at least 70%.

 

[Superpilot92]

When you talk about early outs, you mean at NWA?
The "Layoff Protection Package" that came out June 27th? Or is there something at delta I missed?

And no, I've not heard of anyone voting this down out of spite.
Like I said earlier what good is a contract when you don't know where your seniority is going to shack out?

Your seniority will be the same regardless of the TA. Both MECs have already stated they have the framework already laid out on how the SLI process will happen. So whether you vote down the pay raises or not the SLI will be the same.

 

[Noserider76]

This also locks us into basically a bit above BK compensation through at least 2012 and probably a year or so after that. Admittedly the environment is bad now but why lock this in for so long? DL was going to start Sec 6 late next year and now we've pushed back pretty mediocre wages for the next 4 or 5 years.

 

[AirportBum]

Originally Posted by ACL65PILOT
As a side note. I do not think that voting yes or no will change the outcome of the SLI. The fact is that they are doing it this way so that we are bound by the PWA and therefore cannot vote ALPA off property. Even if we agreed that the PWA would not come to a vote until after the SLI, I think the SLI would probably end in the same result.

Exactly. Leaving this on the table does nothing but leave NWA guys out of the improvements. The list will happen either way, and probably turn out the same, or very close.

Originally Posted by Capt. Caucasian
Like I said earlier what good is a contract when you don't know where your seniority is going to shack out?

I agree completely, but please explain how sinking this contract will give you more control over the SLI outcome.

 

[Superpilot92]

This also locks us into basically a bit above BK compensation through at least 2012 and probably a year or so after that. Admittedly the environment is bad now but why lock this in for so long? DL was going to start Sec 6 late next year and now we've pushed back pretty mediocre wages for the next 4 or 5 years.

Its good you arent going into SEC 6 talks next year now. Even if Oil miraculously dropped tomorrow and the economy rebounded it will take time for the companies remaining to gather strength and start producing decent profits. This arrangement while maybe a little far out gives us a good shot at getting the synergies, gaining strength as 1 pilot group and collectively building our warchest to get an industry leading contract when we actually have negotiating power. Now we dont and if we wait the merger will go on regardless and the SLI will get done regardless and you may get locked into less money. Sometimes you just need to take it and run and now is that time imho considering the state of the industry. just a thought.

 

[nonstop]

I'm not on probation. Once a Delta pilot hits 400 hours they are off probation or, 12 months whichever occurs first. Most everyone hired since last fall is a full voting member.

Yay, more XJT guys at Delta once the merger is done! :beer:

Well then, that makes me a jackass! I stand corrected. :beer:

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Like I said go read all of the LOA and Memorandums of Understanding on the ALPA site. There are over 150 pages of documents there. Basically everything tied to this merger from both sides.
Let early out MOA is probably for NWA guys, but it is vague, as it should be.
The framework is there as well. Also there is a MOA between both MEC's on the SLI and discovery. It is vague but what I got from it was that pay per seat does not equate seniority of A/C or pilot. Again I may be stretching here, but it does leave a lot to interpretation.

There are protections for DAL pilots in LOA 19 that are not there in the JPWA with obvious reason. It is joint contract and favoring one side should not be included and isn't. I will say that after eight plus hrs of reading this stuff today, I am impressed with the depth at which we negotiated. I want all of this behind us, but loosing my job when I otherwise would have not is a steep price to pay. Not saying I am a no, just stating a thought. In fact if I had to vote today, it would probably be a yes.
I hope that the road shows present the facts and not try to sway the rank-and-file's vote. Basically we are all voting for our future. How we play this will determine what type of group we are for the next 30 years.

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt. Caucasian
Like I said earlier what good is a contract when you don't know where your seniority is going to shack out?

I agree completely, but please explain how sinking this contract will give you more control over the SLI outcome.

I did not write that above. Don't know who did.

 

[AirportBum]

My mistake. My cut and paste skills aren't what they used to be.

By the way, WAR EAGLE too, maybe we'll get a quarterback this year.

 

[Speedbird34]

Because I can!!

 

[~~~^~~~]

I stand corrected.

Just like the Boy in Orthopaedic shoes. He stands corrected.

 

[KCPilot]

I want to see a SLI. I see the NWA pilots getting considerably more than I am getting with this (basically LOA 19 w/ a little more) and due to that, I think they should not get a DOH or even a one to one integration as a result of the windfall in money and benefits. Furthermore, NWA may have to furlough due to DC-9 and 747-200s leaving. I don't want to subsidize their furloughs.

Ditto!

 

[ACL65PILOT]

We will subsidize their furloughs one way or the other.