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DAL RJ order soon?
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General Lee
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- Aug 24, 2002
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- 20,442
P38Jlightning,
I like you. You cut right to the point. You might be right about my feeling bad for the furloughs, and maybe some of that is guilt. I feel VERY VERY lucky to still be flying without having to go through that hell. I try to help my friends and support some through free lunches, golf games, etc... I contribute as much as I can, and I want them to come back ASAP. I also know that most of the ASA guys had really no say in whether or not our guys were offered a job, and my point to the Comair guys was that they should try to advocate helping the furloughs --somehow. The problem at ASA/Comair is that the senior guys, who are the minority, rule the roost. They intimidate the junior ones, even though they are out numbered. They tell them these unreasonable demands should be carried out, even though it is to the detriment to everyone there. The point with ASA is that they did not try to BLOCK their management's decision--and allowed it to happen, whereas Comair's MEC wanted something in return. That is my beef. I don't hold every Comair pilot responsible, and I have backed off on much of my prior postings. I do not like the Comair MEC and some of his senior cronies who really run the show and want certain things that are unrealistic and would cause the loss of more higher paying jobs---some of which should have gone to some Comair pilots. As far as future Delta hiring, I made the comment to COMRCAPT that it might be tougher, not impossible, for Comair pilots to get hired because of the current bad blood---and the hurt feelings on both sides are already out there. That may carry over to the retired Capts who help conduct the interviews. We shall see about that. Overall, I just wanted our furloughs to be offered some help in their time of need. That was my agenda---not to push anything else for my MEC etc... I talk to these people everyday--and it isn't fun to hear about their hardships. I want us all to expand eventually, I do.
Bye bye--General Lee
I like you. You cut right to the point. You might be right about my feeling bad for the furloughs, and maybe some of that is guilt. I feel VERY VERY lucky to still be flying without having to go through that hell. I try to help my friends and support some through free lunches, golf games, etc... I contribute as much as I can, and I want them to come back ASAP. I also know that most of the ASA guys had really no say in whether or not our guys were offered a job, and my point to the Comair guys was that they should try to advocate helping the furloughs --somehow. The problem at ASA/Comair is that the senior guys, who are the minority, rule the roost. They intimidate the junior ones, even though they are out numbered. They tell them these unreasonable demands should be carried out, even though it is to the detriment to everyone there. The point with ASA is that they did not try to BLOCK their management's decision--and allowed it to happen, whereas Comair's MEC wanted something in return. That is my beef. I don't hold every Comair pilot responsible, and I have backed off on much of my prior postings. I do not like the Comair MEC and some of his senior cronies who really run the show and want certain things that are unrealistic and would cause the loss of more higher paying jobs---some of which should have gone to some Comair pilots. As far as future Delta hiring, I made the comment to COMRCAPT that it might be tougher, not impossible, for Comair pilots to get hired because of the current bad blood---and the hurt feelings on both sides are already out there. That may carry over to the retired Capts who help conduct the interviews. We shall see about that. Overall, I just wanted our furloughs to be offered some help in their time of need. That was my agenda---not to push anything else for my MEC etc... I talk to these people everyday--and it isn't fun to hear about their hardships. I want us all to expand eventually, I do.
Bye bye--General Lee
Every now and then this guy makes sense.
1. As far as intimidation goes, they are not hiring just 172 grad's anymore. So I think that is false. Maybe the people who paid 10 grand to get a 16 grand job have a beef, so be it I didn't and I dont'.
2. CRM, ok, that is probably the biggest bunch of Bullshi.t I have heard. Look, if you are bitter because DAL did not integrate your seniority so be it. But, to take this opportunity to, 'get them back' is wrong.
3. Stepping stone. I love working here. I will give comair my best while I am here and that is why they hired me. However, if I retire here there will have to be a hell of a lot improvements.
This crap has gone far enough. While I disagree w/ my MEC and some of the viewpoints my brothers have, I have to stand by them. Believe me, whoever did not want DAL pilots at Comair are the minority. When they are interviewing for a job at DAL, you will know who they are by looking in their eyes. You will be able to tell I promise. Don't penalize the rest of them by guilt by association.
1. As far as intimidation goes, they are not hiring just 172 grad's anymore. So I think that is false. Maybe the people who paid 10 grand to get a 16 grand job have a beef, so be it I didn't and I dont'.
2. CRM, ok, that is probably the biggest bunch of Bullshi.t I have heard. Look, if you are bitter because DAL did not integrate your seniority so be it. But, to take this opportunity to, 'get them back' is wrong.
3. Stepping stone. I love working here. I will give comair my best while I am here and that is why they hired me. However, if I retire here there will have to be a hell of a lot improvements.
This crap has gone far enough. While I disagree w/ my MEC and some of the viewpoints my brothers have, I have to stand by them. Believe me, whoever did not want DAL pilots at Comair are the minority. When they are interviewing for a job at DAL, you will know who they are by looking in their eyes. You will be able to tell I promise. Don't penalize the rest of them by guilt by association.
I think it's funny that we are fighting over something, Delta hiring practices, that are many years from happening. After December 1st we will still have 1,060 furloughee's still in the street. If Delta started a recall on January 1st at a steady pace of 30 a month it would be over 35 months before the furloughees are all recalled.
What generally happens then, once we start hiring, is all the classes are filled with familiar last names (meaning all the kids, nephews, nieces, old squadron mates) that had been waiting for the floodgates to open.
Now once all that plays out, 5,6, 10 years from now. Then they will hire off the street and YES whether you were at Comair or ASA will make a difference. It's human nature. Like someone said before it doesn't mean you will never get an interview at DAL, it just means it is going to be harder if your resume has Comair in it.
Furloughed DAL
What generally happens then, once we start hiring, is all the classes are filled with familiar last names (meaning all the kids, nephews, nieces, old squadron mates) that had been waiting for the floodgates to open.
Now once all that plays out, 5,6, 10 years from now. Then they will hire off the street and YES whether you were at Comair or ASA will make a difference. It's human nature. Like someone said before it doesn't mean you will never get an interview at DAL, it just means it is going to be harder if your resume has Comair in it.
Furloughed DAL
General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
First, COMRCAPT:
Your quote shows total intimidation and put downs that the senior guys are famous for. P38 was voicing his opinion, and here's what COMRCAPT had to say:
"Waaah, you've had it rough in your LONG aviation career. I can tell by the position you fly. This is a CAREER airline pal. Comair is not a stepping stone. Go get your Jet time somewhere else."
That is just a classic example of how it works with the senior guys. "Waaah." God forbid someone has a different opinion, then whamo----he must be wrong, and let's put him down and tell him to leave..... CLASSIC. COMRCAPT---you and your cronie friends might be making Comair a career airline.
DDpaysoff,
I know not everyone there thinks that the "MANAGEMENT" decision not to HELP our furloughs out was right. That is good. Then there are others, like CMRCAPT, who think that the rule was a GOLDEN RULE---never to be broken.... The fact is that ASA, your sister airline, did offer employment to our guys in their time of need. Maybe not many took it, but the offer was NICE. I know that Comair is not hiring "172" drivers now, and that plenty of other furloughed pilots from the majors are coming onboard. Good. But, it should be different with the Delta pilots because they are a "part" of the so called Delta family, and Fred Reid and Fred Butrell said it was ok to them, I heard them say that. The extra training involved would not be absorbed by Comair, but by DELTA because they own Comair. The "CRM" story was something I actually heard and cannot believe. It was second hand, but that is the type of response I would expect from Lawson. As things eventually get better in this industry, hiring will also come back, and I honestly don't know what will happen with regards to hiring, but some people will have their opinions, good and bad. For those like COMRCPT who want to stay there the rest of their lives, good for them, that is fine. I actually think Comair is a great airline to work for, with nice planes and good variety of routes. But, the junior pilots there have to watch their backs and look out for their own interests, because the senior guys have their own agendas. That happens at a lot of airlines, probably Delta as well---but just make sure you understand what the ramifications are. Good luck.
Bye Bye---General Lee
Your quote shows total intimidation and put downs that the senior guys are famous for. P38 was voicing his opinion, and here's what COMRCAPT had to say:
"Waaah, you've had it rough in your LONG aviation career. I can tell by the position you fly. This is a CAREER airline pal. Comair is not a stepping stone. Go get your Jet time somewhere else."
That is just a classic example of how it works with the senior guys. "Waaah." God forbid someone has a different opinion, then whamo----he must be wrong, and let's put him down and tell him to leave..... CLASSIC. COMRCAPT---you and your cronie friends might be making Comair a career airline.
DDpaysoff,
I know not everyone there thinks that the "MANAGEMENT" decision not to HELP our furloughs out was right. That is good. Then there are others, like CMRCAPT, who think that the rule was a GOLDEN RULE---never to be broken.... The fact is that ASA, your sister airline, did offer employment to our guys in their time of need. Maybe not many took it, but the offer was NICE. I know that Comair is not hiring "172" drivers now, and that plenty of other furloughed pilots from the majors are coming onboard. Good. But, it should be different with the Delta pilots because they are a "part" of the so called Delta family, and Fred Reid and Fred Butrell said it was ok to them, I heard them say that. The extra training involved would not be absorbed by Comair, but by DELTA because they own Comair. The "CRM" story was something I actually heard and cannot believe. It was second hand, but that is the type of response I would expect from Lawson. As things eventually get better in this industry, hiring will also come back, and I honestly don't know what will happen with regards to hiring, but some people will have their opinions, good and bad. For those like COMRCPT who want to stay there the rest of their lives, good for them, that is fine. I actually think Comair is a great airline to work for, with nice planes and good variety of routes. But, the junior pilots there have to watch their backs and look out for their own interests, because the senior guys have their own agendas. That happens at a lot of airlines, probably Delta as well---but just make sure you understand what the ramifications are. Good luck.
Bye Bye---General Lee
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comrcap said:
COMRCAP, you must be one of those rejected, jealousy driven captains (RJDC) I've heard about at CMR. Those guys who are resentful of anyone who has higher aspirations then they do and the intiative to achieve their goals. Like it or not, CMR has been and still is a stepping stone for many pilots. It is not your place to limit their goals at CMR. If a pilot is happy at the regionals and wants to make it a career great, but not everyone wants to do that.
General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
P38JLightning
Well Endowed Member
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2001
- Posts
- 223
define career airline
General,
Thanks for thinking about the issues fairly, as well as the frank discussions. I'm sure when Delta puts 1310 on the street while they briskly hire 100+ a month at other subsidiaries, etc that its a very emotional and frustrating experience. I, like Caveman and several others, also let my MEC know I supported the hiring of Delta furloughs without seniority resignation. I wish it could have turned out differently, I really do.
And I understand the emotional backlash too. I just hope in the future there will be a way to seperate those who tried to help with those who tried to harm (or worse, extort!) the tough circumstances of those on furlough.
"Waaah, you've had it rough in your LONG aviation career. I can tell by the position you fly. This is a CAREER airline pal. Comair is not a stepping stone. Go get your Jet time somewhere else."
COMRCPT,
Well thanks for at least adressing the issues in an intelligent way. I thought we were having a discussion, not a flame war.
Now I COULD say that maybe I will go get my jet time somewhere else, like Delta someday. And maybe 10 years from now if a staple is finally achieved, you and I could fly one of those spiffy 100 seaters together. You wouldn't mind swinging my gear, would you? Don't worry, if you;re in a hurry I'll get the ATIS and maybe even check the fuel door, provided it isn't raining or anything.
But being a nice guy and all, I won't say that. I still stand by my opinions about the true intentions of the RJDC. As for your "career airline" propaganda, tell me, just which airline out there is not a career airline? Seriously, name one.
The fact is every airline is a career airline until you go somewhere else or retire. Do you really think those all Comair Academy classes we're pushing through every month or two all intend on putting in 35 years at Comair with no thoughts on time building for other jobs?
Next time your FO is a recently seperated or reserve fighter pilot, ask him if he intends on staying here even when the industry rebounds, which will happen sooner than you think I believe. Do you really think all those USAir, AA and United pilots, when recalled, will ALL decide to stay? You don't think a non binding seniority resignation letter will stop them from going back, do you? That's entirely up to their other employer's management.
They're sure cranking 'em out down in Sanford, and the full color ads in various flying mags are a pretty effective recruiting tool. Come to DCI academy, because we're owned by DELTA! Being owned by DELTA makes all the difference! DELTA DELTA DELTA! Yet, according to you, they shouldn't be here unless they have no intention of EVER flying anywhere else. Riiiiggghhht.
Oh I almost forgot about the Delta interns we've already hired this year, and continue to hire. I'm sure you know they have guarantees Delta interviews once Delta hires again. Do you REALLY think they don't 100% intend on cashing those in the microsecond they can?
And that's not even mentioning Dan Ford and the RJDC gang, who want to go to Delta so badly they have hired a 350 dollar an hour lawyer and launched a 15 BILLION dollar lawsuit to make it happen. In fact they want it so badly, they're not just suing for a Delta future, they're suing for a Delta past as well!
Seems like Comair has very few "Career Airline" oriented people onboard afterall.
General,
Thanks for thinking about the issues fairly, as well as the frank discussions. I'm sure when Delta puts 1310 on the street while they briskly hire 100+ a month at other subsidiaries, etc that its a very emotional and frustrating experience. I, like Caveman and several others, also let my MEC know I supported the hiring of Delta furloughs without seniority resignation. I wish it could have turned out differently, I really do.
And I understand the emotional backlash too. I just hope in the future there will be a way to seperate those who tried to help with those who tried to harm (or worse, extort!) the tough circumstances of those on furlough.
"Waaah, you've had it rough in your LONG aviation career. I can tell by the position you fly. This is a CAREER airline pal. Comair is not a stepping stone. Go get your Jet time somewhere else."
COMRCPT,
Well thanks for at least adressing the issues in an intelligent way. I thought we were having a discussion, not a flame war.
Now I COULD say that maybe I will go get my jet time somewhere else, like Delta someday. And maybe 10 years from now if a staple is finally achieved, you and I could fly one of those spiffy 100 seaters together. You wouldn't mind swinging my gear, would you? Don't worry, if you;re in a hurry I'll get the ATIS and maybe even check the fuel door, provided it isn't raining or anything.
But being a nice guy and all, I won't say that. I still stand by my opinions about the true intentions of the RJDC. As for your "career airline" propaganda, tell me, just which airline out there is not a career airline? Seriously, name one.
The fact is every airline is a career airline until you go somewhere else or retire. Do you really think those all Comair Academy classes we're pushing through every month or two all intend on putting in 35 years at Comair with no thoughts on time building for other jobs?
Next time your FO is a recently seperated or reserve fighter pilot, ask him if he intends on staying here even when the industry rebounds, which will happen sooner than you think I believe. Do you really think all those USAir, AA and United pilots, when recalled, will ALL decide to stay? You don't think a non binding seniority resignation letter will stop them from going back, do you? That's entirely up to their other employer's management.
They're sure cranking 'em out down in Sanford, and the full color ads in various flying mags are a pretty effective recruiting tool. Come to DCI academy, because we're owned by DELTA! Being owned by DELTA makes all the difference! DELTA DELTA DELTA! Yet, according to you, they shouldn't be here unless they have no intention of EVER flying anywhere else. Riiiiggghhht.
Oh I almost forgot about the Delta interns we've already hired this year, and continue to hire. I'm sure you know they have guarantees Delta interviews once Delta hires again. Do you REALLY think they don't 100% intend on cashing those in the microsecond they can?
And that's not even mentioning Dan Ford and the RJDC gang, who want to go to Delta so badly they have hired a 350 dollar an hour lawyer and launched a 15 BILLION dollar lawsuit to make it happen. In fact they want it so badly, they're not just suing for a Delta future, they're suing for a Delta past as well!
Seems like Comair has very few "Career Airline" oriented people onboard afterall.
P38Lightning
I usually keep out of the RJDC threads as they tend to bore me to death, but I read them and appreciate the fact that General is one of the few trying to get carpotunnel (or however you spell it) fighting on our behalf. I truly appreciate the passion that General has for us, and hope he continues to fight as a voice for the furloughed.
P38 your post was one of the most enlightning to read from a regional pilot in a very long time. It was well thought out and had no "spin" in it. I hope that after I am back at DAL you will be in the class behind me as we need more level headed people on this forum, and you would make a great addition to DAL someday.
TK
I usually keep out of the RJDC threads as they tend to bore me to death, but I read them and appreciate the fact that General is one of the few trying to get carpotunnel (or however you spell it) fighting on our behalf. I truly appreciate the passion that General has for us, and hope he continues to fight as a voice for the furloughed.
P38 your post was one of the most enlightning to read from a regional pilot in a very long time. It was well thought out and had no "spin" in it. I hope that after I am back at DAL you will be in the class behind me as we need more level headed people on this forum, and you would make a great addition to DAL someday.
TK
General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
P38,
I, too, liked your post and thought it was well thought out. I think you've hit the nail on the head------not everyone wants to stay at Comair. Now, I am not saying that it is not a good airline, the job security, nice airplanes, and variety of routes makes it great. But, you are one of the only ones here that actually stated that you want to go forward someday and try for Delta. I know that not everyone at Comair is as hard nosed as COMRCAPT, and some want the chance at Delta. I think there will be an opportunity for a lot of people, and what you say in your interview might really help your cause. Yes, these "interviews" might be in a FEW years, but it will be worth it eventually.
In the mean time, I think it is great that TBKANE posted to you. He is famous among our furloughs, and we will not be happy until he is back in the cockpit.
Bye Bye--General Lee 
I, too, liked your post and thought it was well thought out. I think you've hit the nail on the head------not everyone wants to stay at Comair. Now, I am not saying that it is not a good airline, the job security, nice airplanes, and variety of routes makes it great. But, you are one of the only ones here that actually stated that you want to go forward someday and try for Delta. I know that not everyone at Comair is as hard nosed as COMRCAPT, and some want the chance at Delta. I think there will be an opportunity for a lot of people, and what you say in your interview might really help your cause. Yes, these "interviews" might be in a FEW years, but it will be worth it eventually.
In the mean time, I think it is great that TBKANE posted to you. He is famous among our furloughs, and we will not be happy until he is back in the cockpit.
Bye Bye--General Lee
General Lee said:FDJ2,
Those are the types of people that are ruining it for the junior guys, who by far out number them. It is too bad.
Bye bye--General Lee
General I couldn't agree more. It's unfortunate that young pilots trying to get some experience and move on have to put up with petty, resentful and bitter bills. But I guess that goes with the territory
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~~~^~~~
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2001
- Posts
- 6,137
General, you and I are up to 50%. I agree the company should not have sold the MD11's, especially into the terrible market we had last summer. Heck - last summer MD11's were selling for less than RJ's and MD88's could be bought with reasonable times and cycles for the price of an E120. It was crazy.General Lee said:So, we will park the new 100 seaters next to the MD-11s, huh? Our VP or marketing--Vikki Escarra---admitted that we left "money on the table" this Summer because one of the bean counters decided to park the MD-11s right after the War. Everyone knows that the loads were very full to Europe, and the MD-11 could have helped---but that isn't our fault---and they were not too expensive--the bean counter just jumped the gun. And, we only sold two of them, and the others might be returned to service next Summer
(and it looks like you will probably never ever see a Delta manual)
Bye bye--General Lee
But, we already have "Delta" manuals. We had never heard of a VDP, much less ever had to plan one, until Air France imposed it on Skyteam and our instructors got back from cross training at DAL. About 80% of our frequent manual revisions are, we are told, required from Delta. Several of our instructors went over to DAL to get the 737 type. It will be a hoot if they now go to Southwest
Good luck with the 100 seater. So now I am sure you can see the "harm" of your contract 2000 scope. ASA used to fly 105 seaters, now we are scoped to 50 seats, with a few 70 seaters grandfathered to us.
My fear is that your scope will result in the cnx of the 737-800 orders and the acquisition of a bunch of lousy Dorniers that will not be flown by your pilots, or ours. When will your MEC decide we would be better off together and stop with the plans to divide and conquer other organized labor groups?
~~~^~~~
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General Lee
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Fins,
Yeah, that would be funny if those instructors left for Southwest. We all were aware that they were taking that course, as protective of SCOPE as we are....I don't know if we will restructure the 738 orders----I think they will be the primary hub and spoke connector--as the 757s go to Song. I didn't know that everyone had "Delta" mannuals. Did you get rid of the VDP also on the non-precision approaches and replace it with a constant angle approach?(CANPA) I think that is a heck of a lot easier for non-precision approaches. As far as buying more MD-11s--I don't think many of our guys liked flying the, compared to the 777s, but they are probably cheaper, and we know who buys the airplanes around here.....It will be interesting to see if we do order a 100 seater and what it would be....Lots of speculation going around.
Take care.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Yeah, that would be funny if those instructors left for Southwest. We all were aware that they were taking that course, as protective of SCOPE as we are....I don't know if we will restructure the 738 orders----I think they will be the primary hub and spoke connector--as the 757s go to Song. I didn't know that everyone had "Delta" mannuals. Did you get rid of the VDP also on the non-precision approaches and replace it with a constant angle approach?(CANPA) I think that is a heck of a lot easier for non-precision approaches. As far as buying more MD-11s--I don't think many of our guys liked flying the, compared to the 777s, but they are probably cheaper, and we know who buys the airplanes around here.....It will be interesting to see if we do order a 100 seater and what it would be....Lots of speculation going around.
Take care.
Bye Bye--General Lee
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