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DAL RJ order soon?
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skiddriver
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- Nov 27, 2001
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Caveman
Grandpa
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
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Skiddriver,
Perhaps you're right. I find it amazing that an alleged comment made by senior management at DAL is all of a sudden de facto the real reason why us evil CMR pilots won't allow DAL furloughees to work here. It's all a bunch of crap and GL knows it. It just get's freaking old after awhile.
While I'm at it let me rant on about a few other things.
Every single misfortune that has befallen the DAL mainline pilots is a direct result of their own MEC's action or inaction. Our MEC has not made one decision that has ANY effect on DAL pilots. Not one.
It was a collaborative group of mainline MEC's that denied the PID outright. If they had just simply honored ALPA's own merger policy not one of the guys furloughed would be out of work right now. Somehow, though, it's not only our fault that they are out of work but it's also our fault that they can't find work elsewhere. BS!
Years ago the DAL MEC decided it would be okay to allow some outsourcing of DAL brand flying because they didn't want to fly t-props. They further exacerbated the problem by allowing that outsourcing to apply to that newfangled RJ. Now that it's biting them in the a$$ it's somehow our fault. BS!
Comair neither petitioned nor campaigned to be a WO. We were bought out in a hostile takeover. Comair owns CVG and they know it. We didn't need mainline then and we don't need it now. But, they expect us to rollover and be good little boys and defer to what's best for the mainline pilots. BS!
I'm fed up and I've had enough. GL and the rest aren't willing to look at the truth. They buy into whatever situationally suits their needs. The only thing GL says that's legit is his concern for the DAL furloughees. I'll give him that much but he is way off base on the how and why of everything else.
Perhaps you're right. I find it amazing that an alleged comment made by senior management at DAL is all of a sudden de facto the real reason why us evil CMR pilots won't allow DAL furloughees to work here. It's all a bunch of crap and GL knows it. It just get's freaking old after awhile.
While I'm at it let me rant on about a few other things.
Every single misfortune that has befallen the DAL mainline pilots is a direct result of their own MEC's action or inaction. Our MEC has not made one decision that has ANY effect on DAL pilots. Not one.
It was a collaborative group of mainline MEC's that denied the PID outright. If they had just simply honored ALPA's own merger policy not one of the guys furloughed would be out of work right now. Somehow, though, it's not only our fault that they are out of work but it's also our fault that they can't find work elsewhere. BS!
Years ago the DAL MEC decided it would be okay to allow some outsourcing of DAL brand flying because they didn't want to fly t-props. They further exacerbated the problem by allowing that outsourcing to apply to that newfangled RJ. Now that it's biting them in the a$$ it's somehow our fault. BS!
Comair neither petitioned nor campaigned to be a WO. We were bought out in a hostile takeover. Comair owns CVG and they know it. We didn't need mainline then and we don't need it now. But, they expect us to rollover and be good little boys and defer to what's best for the mainline pilots. BS!
I'm fed up and I've had enough. GL and the rest aren't willing to look at the truth. They buy into whatever situationally suits their needs. The only thing GL says that's legit is his concern for the DAL furloughees. I'll give him that much but he is way off base on the how and why of everything else.
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General Lee
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- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
CMRCPT,
Talk about Morons. You love to bring the "Big guy vs the Little guy" aspect into this. I never said anything about that. I just gave my opinion about the "CRM" comment that I did hear, even if it was second hand. A lot of my friends were in NEED after they got furloughed, and even though they might not have taken a job offered by Comair, it would have been nice to be offered something in their time of need. Just like the Comair pilots knew they would get some sort of financial help during their strike. (from everyone) It just ticked me off. And, in reality, all we did at SLC was get rid of the last bank out at night--mostly to Montana, which is always slower except for three months during Summer. As far as the SLC turning into a DFW RJ fest, the word here is that route planning admitted to DFW workers that they took out too much, and that they will be adding some back, including maybe a 737-800 crew base in the future. How did you guys do in DFW in the end? One flight to CVG in the mornings. How about SLC? You got how many flights? Sounds like you guys are too expensive.
Fins,
The word is out that there will be some sort of order soon. I don't know the plane, but if it is a plane that isn't currently on our payscale, then Delta would be making a good choice due to the fact that they could get rid of current higher paying aircraft(737-200) and immediately pay the crews less on a newer one with a great payment plan. (The A318, EMB-190, maybe 717) Our contract says that negotiating a new aircraft pay rate is done by comparing it to other airlines that have the same new plane---so Frontier has the A318 and Jetblue will have the EMB-190. Sounds like a substantial savings plan, don't you think? I don't know about the 717, primarily because Delta probably isn't on best terms with Boeing right now, so I think that might be unlikely. As far as buying the new aircraft, we don't know what the deal would involve, and it may be a great one. We may be able to get rid of other aircraft that burn more gas, have higher crew costs, etc. The 100 seater seems to be able to match the current passenger needs---with a CASM that is better than a 50 seat RJ when up against Jetblue etc.... With upcoming paycuts (we think it is likely), fuel prices eventually coming down(when Iraq produces its full potential---and the word is on those financial shows that a lot of other countries will be making a glut in the market), and the economy getting better----we will find our way out of this financial mess. Servicing the debt can keep you alive for many many years. Relax my friend---you will get back into your left seat on the CR7. And, it sounds like you do pretty well on Wall Street, too.
Caveman,
Here we go again--you are right on everything and I am wrong. Give me a break. Haven't you seen what has been going on since 9-11? There has been a dismantling of higher paying jobs. Sure, the couple years right after 9-11 have necessitated using more RJs to help us keep some revenue, but what about when things rebound? They are starting to now, and the return to more profitable days are coming. But, you guys want to get your hands on everything you can now while you have a chance. Most people would think that it is logical that you might want to move up to the major partner and get better pay and benefits....You guys have been fairly cocky ("our company was bought outright....a hostile takeover...we would have been the biggest REGIONAL in the WORLD!!!!!!) and now know that your senior pilots have ruined it for the junior ones for the most part, and now are going for everything. "We want this, you can't do that to us (even though Leo signed it)" I just don't get it, huh? You don't get it. Instead of all of this bickering, we could have had a flow through or preferential hiring for you--and ALL OF YOU could have moved up and enjoyed better pay, bigger planes, and better retirement IF YOU HAD WANTED TO. But no, you got greedy and wanted date of hire (I was there--when I heard that--during our contract talks--I heard it). We could have had a lot of mainline growth and you guys could have moved right up---but the senior guys at your airline didn't want to be the bottom. That is the truth. I do not have it all wrong--I saw it with my own eyes. Your system chief pilot in 1999 was hired at Delta and I talked with him extensively when he was on our jumpseat, and he said your senior guys didn't want anything to do with preferrential hiring, or really even a flow through. They ruined it for everyone, and he admitted that.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Talk about Morons. You love to bring the "Big guy vs the Little guy" aspect into this. I never said anything about that. I just gave my opinion about the "CRM" comment that I did hear, even if it was second hand. A lot of my friends were in NEED after they got furloughed, and even though they might not have taken a job offered by Comair, it would have been nice to be offered something in their time of need. Just like the Comair pilots knew they would get some sort of financial help during their strike. (from everyone) It just ticked me off. And, in reality, all we did at SLC was get rid of the last bank out at night--mostly to Montana, which is always slower except for three months during Summer. As far as the SLC turning into a DFW RJ fest, the word here is that route planning admitted to DFW workers that they took out too much, and that they will be adding some back, including maybe a 737-800 crew base in the future. How did you guys do in DFW in the end? One flight to CVG in the mornings. How about SLC? You got how many flights? Sounds like you guys are too expensive.
Fins,
The word is out that there will be some sort of order soon. I don't know the plane, but if it is a plane that isn't currently on our payscale, then Delta would be making a good choice due to the fact that they could get rid of current higher paying aircraft(737-200) and immediately pay the crews less on a newer one with a great payment plan. (The A318, EMB-190, maybe 717) Our contract says that negotiating a new aircraft pay rate is done by comparing it to other airlines that have the same new plane---so Frontier has the A318 and Jetblue will have the EMB-190. Sounds like a substantial savings plan, don't you think? I don't know about the 717, primarily because Delta probably isn't on best terms with Boeing right now, so I think that might be unlikely. As far as buying the new aircraft, we don't know what the deal would involve, and it may be a great one. We may be able to get rid of other aircraft that burn more gas, have higher crew costs, etc. The 100 seater seems to be able to match the current passenger needs---with a CASM that is better than a 50 seat RJ when up against Jetblue etc.... With upcoming paycuts (we think it is likely), fuel prices eventually coming down(when Iraq produces its full potential---and the word is on those financial shows that a lot of other countries will be making a glut in the market), and the economy getting better----we will find our way out of this financial mess. Servicing the debt can keep you alive for many many years. Relax my friend---you will get back into your left seat on the CR7. And, it sounds like you do pretty well on Wall Street, too.
Caveman,
Here we go again--you are right on everything and I am wrong. Give me a break. Haven't you seen what has been going on since 9-11? There has been a dismantling of higher paying jobs. Sure, the couple years right after 9-11 have necessitated using more RJs to help us keep some revenue, but what about when things rebound? They are starting to now, and the return to more profitable days are coming. But, you guys want to get your hands on everything you can now while you have a chance. Most people would think that it is logical that you might want to move up to the major partner and get better pay and benefits....You guys have been fairly cocky ("our company was bought outright....a hostile takeover...we would have been the biggest REGIONAL in the WORLD!!!!!!) and now know that your senior pilots have ruined it for the junior ones for the most part, and now are going for everything. "We want this, you can't do that to us (even though Leo signed it)" I just don't get it, huh? You don't get it. Instead of all of this bickering, we could have had a flow through or preferential hiring for you--and ALL OF YOU could have moved up and enjoyed better pay, bigger planes, and better retirement IF YOU HAD WANTED TO. But no, you got greedy and wanted date of hire (I was there--when I heard that--during our contract talks--I heard it). We could have had a lot of mainline growth and you guys could have moved right up---but the senior guys at your airline didn't want to be the bottom. That is the truth. I do not have it all wrong--I saw it with my own eyes. Your system chief pilot in 1999 was hired at Delta and I talked with him extensively when he was on our jumpseat, and he said your senior guys didn't want anything to do with preferrential hiring, or really even a flow through. They ruined it for everyone, and he admitted that.
Bye Bye--General Lee
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Caveman, excuse my rant, but every negative aspect of being a wholly owned vendor of small jet lift in the DCI portofolio with no scope over a single hour of the lift you bid for against other vendors is a direct result of the failure of the CMR pilots to negotiate any successorship language. If the CMR pilots had had the sense that God gave a peanut they would have had language in their contract that required a list merger in the event CMR was ever acquired.
skiddriver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2001
- Posts
- 405
General Lee said:
Gen,
Try and apply a little critical thinking here. The Comair MEC could not have simultaneously offered to negotiate for your furloughees to come to Comair (which they did, your MEC just didn't want to give up what our MEC was asking for), and also say it wouldn't work having Delta furloughees at Comair because of a CRM issue. These are mutually exclusive positions. It just makes a handy excuse for your MEC not continuing the effort.
Your MEC didn't ask for them to come to Comair on the basis of common decency, he offered a trade for their employment (semi-preferential hiring - about third or fourth on the list). The Comair MEC agreed to negotiate a trade for your furloughees employment, just as your MEC proposed. Our MEC didn't see the initial offer as sufficient, your MEC wasn't serious enough about the issue to discuss any other trade, end of story.
It was a business offer initiated by your MEC, and terminated by your MEC. Nothing more, nothing less. It takes two to tango, and the reason your furloughees still have to resign their seniority number to work at Comair is because of your MEC's decision to discontinue talks. Last time I talked to JC about it, he was still waiting for the call back.
General Lee
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- Aug 24, 2002
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- 20,442
N2264J,
Interesting quote:
"Isn't anybody over there in management responsible to the shareholders?
Who thinks that the Comair pilots will "share the concessionary pain" under these conditions?"
Wait one second, the reason Delta brought back the furloughs early is because they knew they were probably going to lose the grievance that was filed (and still will go underway because Dalpa believes that it was an illeagal furlough and back pay is due) So, if Delta illegally furloughed some pilots, furloughed them and stopped paying them for more than 6 months, is that right for the shareholders? It sounds like Delta saved the shareholders some money by furloughing pilots, and they are bringing them back at a lower payscale--727FE pay--we don't even have them anymore---while they sit and wait for an advanced entitlement. And, I think we all will share the "concessionary pain." Look what is happeneing to your expansion plans---they will bring in more Chataqua planes if you don't. Aren't you glad you don't have your own scope clause? You should have negotiated your own expansion---but you didn't. Scope is good.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Interesting quote:
"Isn't anybody over there in management responsible to the shareholders?
Who thinks that the Comair pilots will "share the concessionary pain" under these conditions?"
Wait one second, the reason Delta brought back the furloughs early is because they knew they were probably going to lose the grievance that was filed (and still will go underway because Dalpa believes that it was an illeagal furlough and back pay is due) So, if Delta illegally furloughed some pilots, furloughed them and stopped paying them for more than 6 months, is that right for the shareholders? It sounds like Delta saved the shareholders some money by furloughing pilots, and they are bringing them back at a lower payscale--727FE pay--we don't even have them anymore---while they sit and wait for an advanced entitlement. And, I think we all will share the "concessionary pain." Look what is happeneing to your expansion plans---they will bring in more Chataqua planes if you don't. Aren't you glad you don't have your own scope clause? You should have negotiated your own expansion---but you didn't. Scope is good.
Bye Bye--General Lee
General Lee
Well-known member
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- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
Skiddriver,
Look at your post:
"Try and apply a little critical thinking here. The Comair MEC could not have simultaneously offered to negotiate for your furloughees to come to Comair (which they did, your MEC just didn't want to give up what our MEC was asking for),"
Our guys were in need, just like the Comair pilots were when they started their strike. Your MEC was asking something in return for HELPING OUR GUYS. That is ridiculous. What did we get for being part of the masses and giving you guys monetary support? Nothing. The ASA pilots were very generous in helping or offereing our pilots help. Your MEC wanted us to GIVE UP SOMETHING. You said it yourself, right there. Why should our pilots be used as pawns? We didn't complain when we paid out monthly checks to help your guys--we didn't. We all wanted you to win. Can you see my point now? We feel bad that our guys were used as pawns, and regardless of what our MEC did or didn't do---that isn't right. There shouldn't have been a price, the ASA guys didn't have one. Thanks for clarifying my point.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Look at your post:
"Try and apply a little critical thinking here. The Comair MEC could not have simultaneously offered to negotiate for your furloughees to come to Comair (which they did, your MEC just didn't want to give up what our MEC was asking for),"
Our guys were in need, just like the Comair pilots were when they started their strike. Your MEC was asking something in return for HELPING OUR GUYS. That is ridiculous. What did we get for being part of the masses and giving you guys monetary support? Nothing. The ASA pilots were very generous in helping or offereing our pilots help. Your MEC wanted us to GIVE UP SOMETHING. You said it yourself, right there. Why should our pilots be used as pawns? We didn't complain when we paid out monthly checks to help your guys--we didn't. We all wanted you to win. Can you see my point now? We feel bad that our guys were used as pawns, and regardless of what our MEC did or didn't do---that isn't right. There shouldn't have been a price, the ASA guys didn't have one. Thanks for clarifying my point.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Delta has a 100 seat a/c. POS 737-200's still with express paint logo and 19 seats removed. I guess they had to remove the third FA to afford to pay the pilots! LOL sad....It's all the FA's fault! They should share the pain!......Delta add a new A/C type at mainline!?? I guess they'll look pretty in a few years parked next to those shiny white elephants (MD-11's). Can't afford to operate those either.
We senior guys screwed the junior guys at Comair...Yeeeah, right. We saved their A## by not taking a staple. Yeeeeah, um I'm going to need you to come in on Satuday @ 9am General, Sunday too. Bring your I.D. and company manuals too. Yeaaah...
We senior guys screwed the junior guys at Comair...Yeeeah, right. We saved their A## by not taking a staple. Yeeeeah, um I'm going to need you to come in on Satuday @ 9am General, Sunday too. Bring your I.D. and company manuals too. Yeaaah...
General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
COMRCAP,
You can see the future? You knew about 9-11? Wow. That is AWESOME. The senior guys at Comair can see into the future. They knew in advance about the huge downturn after 9-11, and saved their junior guys from being furloughed.......What??? Let's ask them about future Lottery numbers----and we know they ruined the lottery at Delta for their junior guys. You're talking out of your a$$ again.
So, we will park the new 100 seaters next to the MD-11s, huh? Our VP or marketing--Vikki Escarra---admitted that we left "money on the table" this Summer because one of the bean counters decided to park the MD-11s right after the War. Everyone knows that the loads were very full to Europe, and the MD-11 could have helped---but that isn't our fault---and they were not too expensive--the bean counter just jumped the gun. And, we only sold two of them, and the others might be returned to service next Summer. Oh but wait, if Delta gave YOU the 100 seaters, then it would be a GOOD idea. Whatever man. The rates will be a lot lower than the 737-200 POS (as you say it). And it is our fault that the FA's are getting furloughed? Wrong. The company saw that taking out seats could reduce their costs--and they did that to us too by parking the 727s and L10s. They got rid of a lot of people---like the current 1265 pilot furloughs that all have families---while you shun them and look for something in return. Look in the mirror and try not to think about all of the families that are hurting right now. Would they have taken a job at Comair? Maybe, maybe not? But you guys not offering a job without seniority resignation really hit some people hard. A lot of people have been hurt by all of this, and it seems that you guys are looking for more and more. And comparing us to our peers when it comes to salary can be brought back right at you guys. We probably will take a 15% or so paycut eventually, and so might you. Being the highest paid compared to your peer group really sucks during the bad times. That is the way it will be though----have a great day. (and it looks like you will probably never ever see a Delta manual)
Bye bye--General Lee
You can see the future? You knew about 9-11? Wow. That is AWESOME. The senior guys at Comair can see into the future. They knew in advance about the huge downturn after 9-11, and saved their junior guys from being furloughed.......What??? Let's ask them about future Lottery numbers----and we know they ruined the lottery at Delta for their junior guys. You're talking out of your a$$ again.
So, we will park the new 100 seaters next to the MD-11s, huh? Our VP or marketing--Vikki Escarra---admitted that we left "money on the table" this Summer because one of the bean counters decided to park the MD-11s right after the War. Everyone knows that the loads were very full to Europe, and the MD-11 could have helped---but that isn't our fault---and they were not too expensive--the bean counter just jumped the gun. And, we only sold two of them, and the others might be returned to service next Summer. Oh but wait, if Delta gave YOU the 100 seaters, then it would be a GOOD idea. Whatever man. The rates will be a lot lower than the 737-200 POS (as you say it). And it is our fault that the FA's are getting furloughed? Wrong. The company saw that taking out seats could reduce their costs--and they did that to us too by parking the 727s and L10s. They got rid of a lot of people---like the current 1265 pilot furloughs that all have families---while you shun them and look for something in return. Look in the mirror and try not to think about all of the families that are hurting right now. Would they have taken a job at Comair? Maybe, maybe not? But you guys not offering a job without seniority resignation really hit some people hard. A lot of people have been hurt by all of this, and it seems that you guys are looking for more and more. And comparing us to our peers when it comes to salary can be brought back right at you guys. We probably will take a 15% or so paycut eventually, and so might you. Being the highest paid compared to your peer group really sucks during the bad times. That is the way it will be though----have a great day. (and it looks like you will probably never ever see a Delta manual)
Bye bye--General Lee
skiddriver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2001
- Posts
- 405
General Lee said:Skiddriver,
Look at your post:
"Try and apply a little critical thinking here. The Comair MEC could not have simultaneously offered to negotiate for your furloughees to come to Comair (which they did, your MEC just didn't want to give up what our MEC was asking for),"
Our guys were in need, just like the Comair pilots were when they started their strike. Your MEC was asking something in return for HELPING OUR GUYS. That is ridiculous. What did we get for being part of the masses and giving you guys monetary support? Nothing. The ASA pilots were very generous in helping or offereing our pilots help. Your MEC wanted us to GIVE UP SOMETHING. You said it yourself, right there. Why should our pilots be used as pawns? We didn't complain when we paid out monthly checks to help your guys--we didn't. We all wanted you to win. Can you see my point now? We feel bad that our guys were used as pawns, and regardless of what our MEC did or didn't do---that isn't right. There shouldn't have been a price, the ASA guys didn't have one. Thanks for clarifying my point.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Sure I see your point. As I've posted here before, I recommended (as a non-voting member, since I was still on probation) that we ask management to temporarily relax the resignation rule for all furloughed pilots, including Delta's. And to do it for nothing.
What you can't bring yourself to admit, is that this was a business deal from the git'go, initiated by your MEC. He showed up with an "offer you can't refuse", right out of the drug cartel's negotiating plan - silver or lead. As your MEC stated in the meeting, DALPA wanted Comair MEC support on hiring Delta furloughees - the silver was semi-preferential hiring, the bullet was a publicity campaign to discredit the Comair pilot group (ably conducted on this forum by you). I can only assume that the "and now we'll never hire you, nyah nyah nyah" rhetoric is just an added bonus.
The Comair MEC didn't ask you to give something up, your MEC offered. It was always going to be a business deal, the talks broke down over the price. As they do...
Adios
P38JLightning
Well Endowed Member
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2001
- Posts
- 223
Thanks RJDC!
"General is a Moron. Always taking a shot at the little guy."
Actually he takes shots only at Comair pilots for a policy we had no controll over, but it makes him feel better for his furloughs. He knows not one ASA pilot "went to bat" for the Delta furloughees, nor lifted a finger regarding an already existing ASA management policy, but ASA good Comair bad is emotionally soothing to him.
"Duane Worthless will be at our MEC meeting on the 9th. I'm sure he'll be asked if he has the guts to sign a DALPA contract with any restrictions on Comair/ASA."
Oh yeah, you mean like those pesky 777 restrictions? Come on, we all know this is about stealing mainline seniority. Need proof? Perhaps your next post will enlighten us.
"Yes I'm for the RJDC and NO I am not going to share the pain that DALPA created for DAL. Just look at SLC! It's gonna be another DFW RJ FEST!"
Yes, the DFW RJ fest! Let's see, Comair has, is it one or two, daily out and backs there now? Okay on to your true intentions...
"We senior guys screwed the junior guys at Comair...Yeeeah, right. We saved their A## by not taking a staple."
So you admit it was and has always been about getting more than a staple. You see, after 23 years of being our own company, and NEVER flying ANYTHING more than 50 seats, suddenly the day after the buyout, ALPA is discriminating against us by not giving us prior YOS seniority credits so we can bid 300 seat equipment ahead of pilots currently on the Delta list. Give me a break!
That's why all these onelist, PID and RJDC demands insist on binding arbitration for seniority integration. In such an environment, with no prenups whatsoever, a staple is the absolute worst you will get, up to and including DOH. Pretty good windfall return on your monthly RJDC "investment" isn't it!
"Yeeeeah, um I'm going to need you to come in on Satuday @ 9am General, Sunday too. Bring your I.D. and company manuals too. Yeaaah..."
Yeaaah...another "big announcement" about as big as the judge allowing the case to continue after throwing out 90% of its claims outright. Or the big announcement of the judge recommending a class action, as if that was somehow validating of the merits of the case. You can bet if the General did come to the big meeting he would be treated to mass amounts of outlandish rhetoric pointing to recent "court rulings" and D.W.'s appearance at Comair as indications of ALPA's impending surrender and the mainline seniority windfall the Comair and ASA pilots so righteously deserve. Or perhaps the abolition of all "controlling" scope, thereby allowing COmair and ASA pilots to underbid Delta pilots for their equipment. Nevermind the faulty presumption that Comair and ASA pilots would be the beneficiaries of said windfall. You don't think Chatauqua and SkyWest would underbid US, do you? Nah, wouldn't happen.
Oh and thanks for putting the stop to that staple thing back during the PID. Of course, Comair and ASA have hired as much or more since then than the total amount of Delta furloughs. So not one Comair or ASA pilot stapled then would be on the street now, and you'd be right seat in probably at least a 737-800 making I'd guess 50 bucks an hour more. Yep, the RJDC visionaries who blatently advised against a staple back then sure saved us all now!
Hopefully we'll get that DOH windfall any day now. Of course, the most junior Delta furlough was hired in June 2001. There's a whole lot of Comair and ASA pilots hired since then that would be "more junior" than that. Guess they'd be out on the street, huh? Who cares though, as long as you get your windfall. Of course I'm sure the courts will mandate DOH integration and DCI furlough/downgrade protection at the same time. Yep, that's what the judge must have been implying "between the lines" when he "recommended" class action and allowed a single count of the case to continue. Yep, keep reading those tea leaves. You've done brilliantly so far.
"General is a Moron. Always taking a shot at the little guy."
Actually he takes shots only at Comair pilots for a policy we had no controll over, but it makes him feel better for his furloughs. He knows not one ASA pilot "went to bat" for the Delta furloughees, nor lifted a finger regarding an already existing ASA management policy, but ASA good Comair bad is emotionally soothing to him.
"Duane Worthless will be at our MEC meeting on the 9th. I'm sure he'll be asked if he has the guts to sign a DALPA contract with any restrictions on Comair/ASA."
Oh yeah, you mean like those pesky 777 restrictions? Come on, we all know this is about stealing mainline seniority. Need proof? Perhaps your next post will enlighten us.
"Yes I'm for the RJDC and NO I am not going to share the pain that DALPA created for DAL. Just look at SLC! It's gonna be another DFW RJ FEST!"
Yes, the DFW RJ fest! Let's see, Comair has, is it one or two, daily out and backs there now? Okay on to your true intentions...
"We senior guys screwed the junior guys at Comair...Yeeeah, right. We saved their A## by not taking a staple."
So you admit it was and has always been about getting more than a staple. You see, after 23 years of being our own company, and NEVER flying ANYTHING more than 50 seats, suddenly the day after the buyout, ALPA is discriminating against us by not giving us prior YOS seniority credits so we can bid 300 seat equipment ahead of pilots currently on the Delta list. Give me a break!
That's why all these onelist, PID and RJDC demands insist on binding arbitration for seniority integration. In such an environment, with no prenups whatsoever, a staple is the absolute worst you will get, up to and including DOH. Pretty good windfall return on your monthly RJDC "investment" isn't it!
"Yeeeeah, um I'm going to need you to come in on Satuday @ 9am General, Sunday too. Bring your I.D. and company manuals too. Yeaaah..."
Yeaaah...another "big announcement" about as big as the judge allowing the case to continue after throwing out 90% of its claims outright. Or the big announcement of the judge recommending a class action, as if that was somehow validating of the merits of the case. You can bet if the General did come to the big meeting he would be treated to mass amounts of outlandish rhetoric pointing to recent "court rulings" and D.W.'s appearance at Comair as indications of ALPA's impending surrender and the mainline seniority windfall the Comair and ASA pilots so righteously deserve. Or perhaps the abolition of all "controlling" scope, thereby allowing COmair and ASA pilots to underbid Delta pilots for their equipment. Nevermind the faulty presumption that Comair and ASA pilots would be the beneficiaries of said windfall. You don't think Chatauqua and SkyWest would underbid US, do you? Nah, wouldn't happen.
Oh and thanks for putting the stop to that staple thing back during the PID. Of course, Comair and ASA have hired as much or more since then than the total amount of Delta furloughs. So not one Comair or ASA pilot stapled then would be on the street now, and you'd be right seat in probably at least a 737-800 making I'd guess 50 bucks an hour more. Yep, the RJDC visionaries who blatently advised against a staple back then sure saved us all now!
Hopefully we'll get that DOH windfall any day now. Of course, the most junior Delta furlough was hired in June 2001. There's a whole lot of Comair and ASA pilots hired since then that would be "more junior" than that. Guess they'd be out on the street, huh? Who cares though, as long as you get your windfall. Of course I'm sure the courts will mandate DOH integration and DCI furlough/downgrade protection at the same time. Yep, that's what the judge must have been implying "between the lines" when he "recommended" class action and allowed a single count of the case to continue. Yep, keep reading those tea leaves. You've done brilliantly so far.
General Lee
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P38Jlightning,
I like you. You cut right to the point. You might be right about my feeling bad for the furloughs, and maybe some of that is guilt. I feel VERY VERY lucky to still be flying without having to go through that hell. I try to help my friends and support some through free lunches, golf games, etc... I contribute as much as I can, and I want them to come back ASAP. I also know that most of the ASA guys had really no say in whether or not our guys were offered a job, and my point to the Comair guys was that they should try to advocate helping the furloughs --somehow. The problem at ASA/Comair is that the senior guys, who are the minority, rule the roost. They intimidate the junior ones, even though they are out numbered. They tell them these unreasonable demands should be carried out, even though it is to the detriment to everyone there. The point with ASA is that they did not try to BLOCK their management's decision--and allowed it to happen, whereas Comair's MEC wanted something in return. That is my beef. I don't hold every Comair pilot responsible, and I have backed off on much of my prior postings. I do not like the Comair MEC and some of his senior cronies who really run the show and want certain things that are unrealistic and would cause the loss of more higher paying jobs---some of which should have gone to some Comair pilots. As far as future Delta hiring, I made the comment to COMRCAPT that it might be tougher, not impossible, for Comair pilots to get hired because of the current bad blood---and the hurt feelings on both sides are already out there. That may carry over to the retired Capts who help conduct the interviews. We shall see about that. Overall, I just wanted our furloughs to be offered some help in their time of need. That was my agenda---not to push anything else for my MEC etc... I talk to these people everyday--and it isn't fun to hear about their hardships. I want us all to expand eventually, I do.
Bye bye--General Lee
I like you. You cut right to the point. You might be right about my feeling bad for the furloughs, and maybe some of that is guilt. I feel VERY VERY lucky to still be flying without having to go through that hell. I try to help my friends and support some through free lunches, golf games, etc... I contribute as much as I can, and I want them to come back ASAP. I also know that most of the ASA guys had really no say in whether or not our guys were offered a job, and my point to the Comair guys was that they should try to advocate helping the furloughs --somehow. The problem at ASA/Comair is that the senior guys, who are the minority, rule the roost. They intimidate the junior ones, even though they are out numbered. They tell them these unreasonable demands should be carried out, even though it is to the detriment to everyone there. The point with ASA is that they did not try to BLOCK their management's decision--and allowed it to happen, whereas Comair's MEC wanted something in return. That is my beef. I don't hold every Comair pilot responsible, and I have backed off on much of my prior postings. I do not like the Comair MEC and some of his senior cronies who really run the show and want certain things that are unrealistic and would cause the loss of more higher paying jobs---some of which should have gone to some Comair pilots. As far as future Delta hiring, I made the comment to COMRCAPT that it might be tougher, not impossible, for Comair pilots to get hired because of the current bad blood---and the hurt feelings on both sides are already out there. That may carry over to the retired Capts who help conduct the interviews. We shall see about that. Overall, I just wanted our furloughs to be offered some help in their time of need. That was my agenda---not to push anything else for my MEC etc... I talk to these people everyday--and it isn't fun to hear about their hardships. I want us all to expand eventually, I do.
Bye bye--General Lee
Every now and then this guy makes sense.
1. As far as intimidation goes, they are not hiring just 172 grad's anymore. So I think that is false. Maybe the people who paid 10 grand to get a 16 grand job have a beef, so be it I didn't and I dont'.
2. CRM, ok, that is probably the biggest bunch of Bullshi.t I have heard. Look, if you are bitter because DAL did not integrate your seniority so be it. But, to take this opportunity to, 'get them back' is wrong.
3. Stepping stone. I love working here. I will give comair my best while I am here and that is why they hired me. However, if I retire here there will have to be a hell of a lot improvements.
This crap has gone far enough. While I disagree w/ my MEC and some of the viewpoints my brothers have, I have to stand by them. Believe me, whoever did not want DAL pilots at Comair are the minority. When they are interviewing for a job at DAL, you will know who they are by looking in their eyes. You will be able to tell I promise. Don't penalize the rest of them by guilt by association.
1. As far as intimidation goes, they are not hiring just 172 grad's anymore. So I think that is false. Maybe the people who paid 10 grand to get a 16 grand job have a beef, so be it I didn't and I dont'.
2. CRM, ok, that is probably the biggest bunch of Bullshi.t I have heard. Look, if you are bitter because DAL did not integrate your seniority so be it. But, to take this opportunity to, 'get them back' is wrong.
3. Stepping stone. I love working here. I will give comair my best while I am here and that is why they hired me. However, if I retire here there will have to be a hell of a lot improvements.
This crap has gone far enough. While I disagree w/ my MEC and some of the viewpoints my brothers have, I have to stand by them. Believe me, whoever did not want DAL pilots at Comair are the minority. When they are interviewing for a job at DAL, you will know who they are by looking in their eyes. You will be able to tell I promise. Don't penalize the rest of them by guilt by association.
I think it's funny that we are fighting over something, Delta hiring practices, that are many years from happening. After December 1st we will still have 1,060 furloughee's still in the street. If Delta started a recall on January 1st at a steady pace of 30 a month it would be over 35 months before the furloughees are all recalled.
What generally happens then, once we start hiring, is all the classes are filled with familiar last names (meaning all the kids, nephews, nieces, old squadron mates) that had been waiting for the floodgates to open.
Now once all that plays out, 5,6, 10 years from now. Then they will hire off the street and YES whether you were at Comair or ASA will make a difference. It's human nature. Like someone said before it doesn't mean you will never get an interview at DAL, it just means it is going to be harder if your resume has Comair in it.
Furloughed DAL
What generally happens then, once we start hiring, is all the classes are filled with familiar last names (meaning all the kids, nephews, nieces, old squadron mates) that had been waiting for the floodgates to open.
Now once all that plays out, 5,6, 10 years from now. Then they will hire off the street and YES whether you were at Comair or ASA will make a difference. It's human nature. Like someone said before it doesn't mean you will never get an interview at DAL, it just means it is going to be harder if your resume has Comair in it.
Furloughed DAL
General Lee
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First, COMRCAPT:
Your quote shows total intimidation and put downs that the senior guys are famous for. P38 was voicing his opinion, and here's what COMRCAPT had to say:
"Waaah, you've had it rough in your LONG aviation career. I can tell by the position you fly. This is a CAREER airline pal. Comair is not a stepping stone. Go get your Jet time somewhere else."
That is just a classic example of how it works with the senior guys. "Waaah." God forbid someone has a different opinion, then whamo----he must be wrong, and let's put him down and tell him to leave..... CLASSIC. COMRCAPT---you and your cronie friends might be making Comair a career airline.
DDpaysoff,
I know not everyone there thinks that the "MANAGEMENT" decision not to HELP our furloughs out was right. That is good. Then there are others, like CMRCAPT, who think that the rule was a GOLDEN RULE---never to be broken.... The fact is that ASA, your sister airline, did offer employment to our guys in their time of need. Maybe not many took it, but the offer was NICE. I know that Comair is not hiring "172" drivers now, and that plenty of other furloughed pilots from the majors are coming onboard. Good. But, it should be different with the Delta pilots because they are a "part" of the so called Delta family, and Fred Reid and Fred Butrell said it was ok to them, I heard them say that. The extra training involved would not be absorbed by Comair, but by DELTA because they own Comair. The "CRM" story was something I actually heard and cannot believe. It was second hand, but that is the type of response I would expect from Lawson. As things eventually get better in this industry, hiring will also come back, and I honestly don't know what will happen with regards to hiring, but some people will have their opinions, good and bad. For those like COMRCPT who want to stay there the rest of their lives, good for them, that is fine. I actually think Comair is a great airline to work for, with nice planes and good variety of routes. But, the junior pilots there have to watch their backs and look out for their own interests, because the senior guys have their own agendas. That happens at a lot of airlines, probably Delta as well---but just make sure you understand what the ramifications are. Good luck.
Bye Bye---General Lee
Your quote shows total intimidation and put downs that the senior guys are famous for. P38 was voicing his opinion, and here's what COMRCAPT had to say:
"Waaah, you've had it rough in your LONG aviation career. I can tell by the position you fly. This is a CAREER airline pal. Comair is not a stepping stone. Go get your Jet time somewhere else."
That is just a classic example of how it works with the senior guys. "Waaah." God forbid someone has a different opinion, then whamo----he must be wrong, and let's put him down and tell him to leave..... CLASSIC. COMRCAPT---you and your cronie friends might be making Comair a career airline.
DDpaysoff,
I know not everyone there thinks that the "MANAGEMENT" decision not to HELP our furloughs out was right. That is good. Then there are others, like CMRCAPT, who think that the rule was a GOLDEN RULE---never to be broken.... The fact is that ASA, your sister airline, did offer employment to our guys in their time of need. Maybe not many took it, but the offer was NICE. I know that Comair is not hiring "172" drivers now, and that plenty of other furloughed pilots from the majors are coming onboard. Good. But, it should be different with the Delta pilots because they are a "part" of the so called Delta family, and Fred Reid and Fred Butrell said it was ok to them, I heard them say that. The extra training involved would not be absorbed by Comair, but by DELTA because they own Comair. The "CRM" story was something I actually heard and cannot believe. It was second hand, but that is the type of response I would expect from Lawson. As things eventually get better in this industry, hiring will also come back, and I honestly don't know what will happen with regards to hiring, but some people will have their opinions, good and bad. For those like COMRCPT who want to stay there the rest of their lives, good for them, that is fine. I actually think Comair is a great airline to work for, with nice planes and good variety of routes. But, the junior pilots there have to watch their backs and look out for their own interests, because the senior guys have their own agendas. That happens at a lot of airlines, probably Delta as well---but just make sure you understand what the ramifications are. Good luck.
Bye Bye---General Lee
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comrcap said:
COMRCAP, you must be one of those rejected, jealousy driven captains (RJDC) I've heard about at CMR. Those guys who are resentful of anyone who has higher aspirations then they do and the intiative to achieve their goals. Like it or not, CMR has been and still is a stepping stone for many pilots. It is not your place to limit their goals at CMR. If a pilot is happy at the regionals and wants to make it a career great, but not everyone wants to do that.
General Lee
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P38JLightning
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define career airline
General,
Thanks for thinking about the issues fairly, as well as the frank discussions. I'm sure when Delta puts 1310 on the street while they briskly hire 100+ a month at other subsidiaries, etc that its a very emotional and frustrating experience. I, like Caveman and several others, also let my MEC know I supported the hiring of Delta furloughs without seniority resignation. I wish it could have turned out differently, I really do.
And I understand the emotional backlash too. I just hope in the future there will be a way to seperate those who tried to help with those who tried to harm (or worse, extort!) the tough circumstances of those on furlough.
"Waaah, you've had it rough in your LONG aviation career. I can tell by the position you fly. This is a CAREER airline pal. Comair is not a stepping stone. Go get your Jet time somewhere else."
COMRCPT,
Well thanks for at least adressing the issues in an intelligent way. I thought we were having a discussion, not a flame war.
Now I COULD say that maybe I will go get my jet time somewhere else, like Delta someday. And maybe 10 years from now if a staple is finally achieved, you and I could fly one of those spiffy 100 seaters together. You wouldn't mind swinging my gear, would you? Don't worry, if you;re in a hurry I'll get the ATIS and maybe even check the fuel door, provided it isn't raining or anything.
But being a nice guy and all, I won't say that. I still stand by my opinions about the true intentions of the RJDC. As for your "career airline" propaganda, tell me, just which airline out there is not a career airline? Seriously, name one.
The fact is every airline is a career airline until you go somewhere else or retire. Do you really think those all Comair Academy classes we're pushing through every month or two all intend on putting in 35 years at Comair with no thoughts on time building for other jobs?
Next time your FO is a recently seperated or reserve fighter pilot, ask him if he intends on staying here even when the industry rebounds, which will happen sooner than you think I believe. Do you really think all those USAir, AA and United pilots, when recalled, will ALL decide to stay? You don't think a non binding seniority resignation letter will stop them from going back, do you? That's entirely up to their other employer's management.
They're sure cranking 'em out down in Sanford, and the full color ads in various flying mags are a pretty effective recruiting tool. Come to DCI academy, because we're owned by DELTA! Being owned by DELTA makes all the difference! DELTA DELTA DELTA! Yet, according to you, they shouldn't be here unless they have no intention of EVER flying anywhere else. Riiiiggghhht.
Oh I almost forgot about the Delta interns we've already hired this year, and continue to hire. I'm sure you know they have guarantees Delta interviews once Delta hires again. Do you REALLY think they don't 100% intend on cashing those in the microsecond they can?
And that's not even mentioning Dan Ford and the RJDC gang, who want to go to Delta so badly they have hired a 350 dollar an hour lawyer and launched a 15 BILLION dollar lawsuit to make it happen. In fact they want it so badly, they're not just suing for a Delta future, they're suing for a Delta past as well!
Seems like Comair has very few "Career Airline" oriented people onboard afterall.
General,
Thanks for thinking about the issues fairly, as well as the frank discussions. I'm sure when Delta puts 1310 on the street while they briskly hire 100+ a month at other subsidiaries, etc that its a very emotional and frustrating experience. I, like Caveman and several others, also let my MEC know I supported the hiring of Delta furloughs without seniority resignation. I wish it could have turned out differently, I really do.
And I understand the emotional backlash too. I just hope in the future there will be a way to seperate those who tried to help with those who tried to harm (or worse, extort!) the tough circumstances of those on furlough.
"Waaah, you've had it rough in your LONG aviation career. I can tell by the position you fly. This is a CAREER airline pal. Comair is not a stepping stone. Go get your Jet time somewhere else."
COMRCPT,
Well thanks for at least adressing the issues in an intelligent way. I thought we were having a discussion, not a flame war.
Now I COULD say that maybe I will go get my jet time somewhere else, like Delta someday. And maybe 10 years from now if a staple is finally achieved, you and I could fly one of those spiffy 100 seaters together. You wouldn't mind swinging my gear, would you? Don't worry, if you;re in a hurry I'll get the ATIS and maybe even check the fuel door, provided it isn't raining or anything.
But being a nice guy and all, I won't say that. I still stand by my opinions about the true intentions of the RJDC. As for your "career airline" propaganda, tell me, just which airline out there is not a career airline? Seriously, name one.
The fact is every airline is a career airline until you go somewhere else or retire. Do you really think those all Comair Academy classes we're pushing through every month or two all intend on putting in 35 years at Comair with no thoughts on time building for other jobs?
Next time your FO is a recently seperated or reserve fighter pilot, ask him if he intends on staying here even when the industry rebounds, which will happen sooner than you think I believe. Do you really think all those USAir, AA and United pilots, when recalled, will ALL decide to stay? You don't think a non binding seniority resignation letter will stop them from going back, do you? That's entirely up to their other employer's management.
They're sure cranking 'em out down in Sanford, and the full color ads in various flying mags are a pretty effective recruiting tool. Come to DCI academy, because we're owned by DELTA! Being owned by DELTA makes all the difference! DELTA DELTA DELTA! Yet, according to you, they shouldn't be here unless they have no intention of EVER flying anywhere else. Riiiiggghhht.
Oh I almost forgot about the Delta interns we've already hired this year, and continue to hire. I'm sure you know they have guarantees Delta interviews once Delta hires again. Do you REALLY think they don't 100% intend on cashing those in the microsecond they can?
And that's not even mentioning Dan Ford and the RJDC gang, who want to go to Delta so badly they have hired a 350 dollar an hour lawyer and launched a 15 BILLION dollar lawsuit to make it happen. In fact they want it so badly, they're not just suing for a Delta future, they're suing for a Delta past as well!
Seems like Comair has very few "Career Airline" oriented people onboard afterall.
P38Lightning
I usually keep out of the RJDC threads as they tend to bore me to death, but I read them and appreciate the fact that General is one of the few trying to get carpotunnel (or however you spell it) fighting on our behalf. I truly appreciate the passion that General has for us, and hope he continues to fight as a voice for the furloughed.
P38 your post was one of the most enlightning to read from a regional pilot in a very long time. It was well thought out and had no "spin" in it. I hope that after I am back at DAL you will be in the class behind me as we need more level headed people on this forum, and you would make a great addition to DAL someday.
TK
I usually keep out of the RJDC threads as they tend to bore me to death, but I read them and appreciate the fact that General is one of the few trying to get carpotunnel (or however you spell it) fighting on our behalf. I truly appreciate the passion that General has for us, and hope he continues to fight as a voice for the furloughed.
P38 your post was one of the most enlightning to read from a regional pilot in a very long time. It was well thought out and had no "spin" in it. I hope that after I am back at DAL you will be in the class behind me as we need more level headed people on this forum, and you would make a great addition to DAL someday.
TK
General Lee
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P38,
I, too, liked your post and thought it was well thought out. I think you've hit the nail on the head------not everyone wants to stay at Comair. Now, I am not saying that it is not a good airline, the job security, nice airplanes, and variety of routes makes it great. But, you are one of the only ones here that actually stated that you want to go forward someday and try for Delta. I know that not everyone at Comair is as hard nosed as COMRCAPT, and some want the chance at Delta. I think there will be an opportunity for a lot of people, and what you say in your interview might really help your cause. Yes, these "interviews" might be in a FEW years, but it will be worth it eventually.
In the mean time, I think it is great that TBKANE posted to you. He is famous among our furloughs, and we will not be happy until he is back in the cockpit.
Bye Bye--General Lee
I, too, liked your post and thought it was well thought out. I think you've hit the nail on the head------not everyone wants to stay at Comair. Now, I am not saying that it is not a good airline, the job security, nice airplanes, and variety of routes makes it great. But, you are one of the only ones here that actually stated that you want to go forward someday and try for Delta. I know that not everyone at Comair is as hard nosed as COMRCAPT, and some want the chance at Delta. I think there will be an opportunity for a lot of people, and what you say in your interview might really help your cause. Yes, these "interviews" might be in a FEW years, but it will be worth it eventually.
In the mean time, I think it is great that TBKANE posted to you. He is famous among our furloughs, and we will not be happy until he is back in the cockpit.
Bye Bye--General Lee
General Lee said:FDJ2,
Those are the types of people that are ruining it for the junior guys, who by far out number them. It is too bad.
Bye bye--General Lee
General I couldn't agree more. It's unfortunate that young pilots trying to get some experience and move on have to put up with petty, resentful and bitter bills. But I guess that goes with the territory
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~~~^~~~
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General, you and I are up to 50%. I agree the company should not have sold the MD11's, especially into the terrible market we had last summer. Heck - last summer MD11's were selling for less than RJ's and MD88's could be bought with reasonable times and cycles for the price of an E120. It was crazy.General Lee said:So, we will park the new 100 seaters next to the MD-11s, huh? Our VP or marketing--Vikki Escarra---admitted that we left "money on the table" this Summer because one of the bean counters decided to park the MD-11s right after the War. Everyone knows that the loads were very full to Europe, and the MD-11 could have helped---but that isn't our fault---and they were not too expensive--the bean counter just jumped the gun. And, we only sold two of them, and the others might be returned to service next Summer
(and it looks like you will probably never ever see a Delta manual)
Bye bye--General Lee
But, we already have "Delta" manuals. We had never heard of a VDP, much less ever had to plan one, until Air France imposed it on Skyteam and our instructors got back from cross training at DAL. About 80% of our frequent manual revisions are, we are told, required from Delta. Several of our instructors went over to DAL to get the 737 type. It will be a hoot if they now go to Southwest
Good luck with the 100 seater. So now I am sure you can see the "harm" of your contract 2000 scope. ASA used to fly 105 seaters, now we are scoped to 50 seats, with a few 70 seaters grandfathered to us.
My fear is that your scope will result in the cnx of the 737-800 orders and the acquisition of a bunch of lousy Dorniers that will not be flown by your pilots, or ours. When will your MEC decide we would be better off together and stop with the plans to divide and conquer other organized labor groups?
~~~^~~~
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General Lee
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Fins,
Yeah, that would be funny if those instructors left for Southwest. We all were aware that they were taking that course, as protective of SCOPE as we are....I don't know if we will restructure the 738 orders----I think they will be the primary hub and spoke connector--as the 757s go to Song. I didn't know that everyone had "Delta" mannuals. Did you get rid of the VDP also on the non-precision approaches and replace it with a constant angle approach?(CANPA) I think that is a heck of a lot easier for non-precision approaches. As far as buying more MD-11s--I don't think many of our guys liked flying the, compared to the 777s, but they are probably cheaper, and we know who buys the airplanes around here.....It will be interesting to see if we do order a 100 seater and what it would be....Lots of speculation going around.
Take care.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Yeah, that would be funny if those instructors left for Southwest. We all were aware that they were taking that course, as protective of SCOPE as we are....I don't know if we will restructure the 738 orders----I think they will be the primary hub and spoke connector--as the 757s go to Song. I didn't know that everyone had "Delta" mannuals. Did you get rid of the VDP also on the non-precision approaches and replace it with a constant angle approach?(CANPA) I think that is a heck of a lot easier for non-precision approaches. As far as buying more MD-11s--I don't think many of our guys liked flying the, compared to the 777s, but they are probably cheaper, and we know who buys the airplanes around here.....It will be interesting to see if we do order a 100 seater and what it would be....Lots of speculation going around.
Take care.
Bye Bye--General Lee
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