Current or Former EMB-120 Drivers

[B190Captain]

I am curious to know your thoughts of the EMB-120 and if there are any tips you may have to offer since it looks like we are getting them in the near future.

Thanks in Advance.

 

[Palerider957]

I am curious to know your thoughts of the EMB-120 and if there are any tips you may have to offer since it looks like we are getting them in the near future.

Thanks in Advance.

Good luck, God speed.......enjoy those V1 cuts, auto-transfers, and flap faults.

It's a fast and powerful plane, but it has some BIZARRE quirks. If your not careful it will have your a$$ for breakfast.

 

[Ted Striker]

I am curious to know your thoughts of the EMB-120 and if there are any tips you may have to offer since it looks like we are getting them in the near future.

Thanks in Advance.

Beware the prop....I never fully trusted it. It's the only thing that has killed people here at ASA. Good stick/rudder airplane, if you can fly the Brasilia well-you can fly period. It will keep you on your toes. Who do you work for? Are you getting some of ASA's from Hot Springs? Have fun, it's a hot rod.

 

[Rogue5]

Its best to think of the power levers and rudder trim as a single, malfunctioning unit: they should be tied together, but you'll have to adjust each individually.

Don't pull all the power off to land unless you're light, try to set about 10-12% torque for zero thrust and milk it. I used to land with one hand on the yoke and one on the trim wheel.

Get a good set of noise cancelling headsets (I recommend Bose).

Learn to love the voice that follows each triple-chime.

Great airplane. It blows the doors off any other turboprop out there except the Q400 and 250 to the marker is no problem...

 

[trip]

Keep the speed up when in the ice and wx (170+) until on final and you will be allright. Lots of power and fun to fly!! enjoy.

 

[IAHERJ]

While I don't recommend this practice to anyone, pulling only the left engine back on a rapid descent will keep the ball centered thus releiving you from having to crank 3 turns of the rudder trim everytine you get a descent in the terminal area. Again I don't recommend this. Fond memories of that plane.

IAHERJ

 

[Sphincter Boy]

Get familiar with flap control faults and flap assymatry.

 

[sleepy]

I only had to fly it for one year, the worst year of my career. What a POS!

 

[embdrvr]

Know that if you have an EEC fail-fixed on the T/O roll that you will have to turn the EEC's off in order to perform an abort if you choose to do so. Theoretically you don't have to turn both off but reverse will be assymetrical. Also it's just easier to turn off both than sort it out. If you fail to turn off the effected EEC retarding the power lever will not depower that engine. The TQ motor will remain locked and the FF stays the same. Some folks will disagree and say they aborted successfully without touching the switches. However they did not have a fail fixed type failure. If the entire EEC fails then the power lever will function normally.

 

[Morgoth]

Learn to love the voice that follows each triple-chime.

Ah yes.....good old Natasha.

 

[propjockey]

Good old Natasha

"Hi, Steve!"

 

[Freebrd]

Don't pull all the power off to land unless you're light, try to set about 10-12% torque for zero thrust and milk it. I used to land with one hand on the yoke and one on the trim wheel.

WRONG! I once had a Capt 'show' me how he lands the E120 using this method and the SOB touched down about halfway down the runway! This demo was after I had greased one in prior to his demo with the stall shaker going off in the flare, and he almosrt freaked out, didn't like that, and was gonna show me the technique he used. Get the power off, don't use the above techique. I flew the plane for 10 years and never had any big problems other then one prop failure and a V1...lol.

 

[Mr DC3]

Get familiar with flap control faults and flap assymatry

Flap control faults, YES
Flap disagreement, Sure
Flap assymatry, Never heard of this actually happening, but possible.

The flaps on the EMB are a quirky part of the aircraft. . . Especially when landing with Flaps 45. Often, you'll get a disagreement when retracting the flaps from 45 degrees.

Great aircraft. . . one that actually makes you feel like you're a pilot. You actually fly this airplane, not simply manage it. Since there is very little automation, you'll stay busy.

 

[rgd]

Even though you select final flaps for landing, they don't come in until you are about 5 feet off the runway. This makes for a great balloon, followed by a big drop, followed by a loud thud and a compacted verterbrae.

 

[~~~^~~~]

erh' is this the original electrical system, the modified, or the modified - post modified?

For your prop oral - "dumps metered oil," is the answer to about 70% of the questions.

Once on line, water leaks into the avionics compartment and whacks the F/O's EFIS. Does not seem to hurt it, once it dries out.

EMB120 - the NTSB's reccommendation was that the Type Certificate be pulled. Go online and read the NTSB's findings from Comair's fatal icing accident ( in Grand Rapids? ). The conclusions will make your eyes bug out like a stomped on bullfrog.

It is a blast to fly, but poorly engineered and tested systems wise, IMHO. Alot like doing flight test work with revenue on board

~~~^~~~

 

[embdrvr]

EMB120 - the NTSB's reccommendation was that the Type Certificate be pulled. Go online and read the NTSB's findings from Comair's fatal icing accident ( in Grand Rapids? ). The conclusions will make your eyes bug out like a stomped on bullfrog.

The EMB does just fine in ice. The problem is crews that allowed their airspeed to decay. You can't kick your feet up and flirt with the FA during a climb in icing conditions. Fly the frigging airplane. Keep the speed at 170-180 and use whatever amount of power is necessary to keep the climb going. On an approach in heavy icing conditions keep the aircraft clean and fast. If ATC wants you to go slow you tell them "unable." They can always vector you through the loc and bring you back the other way. Stay in command of the aircraft and the situation and the Brasilia won't let you down. It's a great airplane.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The EMB does just fine in ice.

If I remember correctly, it was not the ice that got them. When the crew applied full power as they were trained to do during recovery - the airplane torque rolled.

When the NTSB asked EMB what the minimum speed at whuch application of full power would be controllable, Embraer responded along the lines of, "we don't know." Embraer had used a digitial flight model for some of their performance data and had entered pounds of thrust, without considering the effect of torque. The FAA then signed off on the sim data. The NTSB wanted more testing.

This issue was also encountered by Lockheed on the C130J program, when they tried to submit sim data from earlier design programs. Apparently there has been a change in philosophy over how turboprop airplanes were certified in the early eighties.

It has been several years since I studied that report and candidly admit my facts may be a little off, but the point remains, the airplane requires more technique and airmanship than most airplanes certified under part 25.

~~~^~~~

 

[embdrvr]

If I remember correctly, it was not the ice that got them. When the crew applied full power as they were trained to do during recovery - the airplane torque rolled.

It has been several years since I studied that report and candidly admit my facts may be a little off, but the point remains, the airplane requires more technique and airmanship than most airplanes certified under part 25.

~~~^~~~

If you don't get slow you don't have to worry about performing any sort of recovery.
I agree with you that it requires a tad more airmanship than a Part 25 aircraft should.
Bottom line is keep your speed up.
Also take a hint from the militry trained folks and use the AOA gauge. It helps.

 

[strega7]

If I remember, the NTSB/ALPA was unhappy with the fact the wing has zero washout built in, same angle of incidence at the tip and at the root. Nasty stalls and even worse recoveries. To meet certification requirements the shaker/pusher system was installed. In the Comair Detroit crash, the airplane was on autopilot, at 156 kts, clean config, dirty with ice, and in a 25 degree banked turn. When the autopilot could not recover from the turn (plane starting to stall) and reached the limit of its authority, it disconnected by design. This gave the crew a stalled, iced, slow, heavy airplane in IMC, and we know the rest. It was never determined for sure if the deice boots were activated.

ALPA produced a large report about this accident that was, for the most part, ok considering the fact they were trying to remove most of the blame from the crew and place it on the Brasilian FAA, Comair training, Embraer,and our FAA. The plane received even more attention after Comair almost lost another one off the Florida coast for similar reasons. The "fix" is now all the "deice" systems are treated as "anti-ice" systems. See a cloud and its cold? Turn everything on and leave it. Crews should always have minimum manuvering speeds in mind and its a shame people had to die to make the point. How does that saying go about regs written in blood?

After 4000 hours in this beast, I believe its gotten a bad rap for two reasons. Weak quill shafts in the prop early in its life and lackluster airmanship by pilots in the ice. Every plane has its weaknesses, this plane in no exception.

Fly safe.

 

[propjockey]

WRONG! I once had a Capt 'show' me how he lands the E120 using this method and the SOB touched down about halfway down the runway! This demo was after I had greased one in prior to his demo with the stall shaker going off in the flare, and he almosrt freaked out, didn't like that, and was gonna show me the technique he used. Get the power off, don't use the above techique. I flew the plane for 10 years and never had any big problems other then one prop failure and a V1...lol.

Are you advocating full-stall landings in the Brasilia? You've got me beat by a lot of years of experience in the Bro, but I respectfully suggest that this is not a very good idea in a transport category aircraft. Although I can't support this argument with written proof, I believe landings with stick shaker are officially "frowned upon" here. Once I started flying even mid-size piston twins (i.e. Baron, C310), I was taught to fly the airplane onto the runway. This philosophy was also taught in initial at both airlines I have flown for. In fact, regarding pulling off all the power, the SOP at my company says in a bold text note: "It is not recommended to press the power levers against the electrical stop (full aft) prior to landing."

 

[embdrvr]

The shaker going off in the flare means you f____ed up the landing. Like practically every other airplane out there you can easily land the EMB in the TDZ by flying the profile. Cross the threshold at ref and land at ref to ref - 10. Keep a bit of power on (10-15% TQ) and fly the plane to the ground. Keep the pitch attitude steady. If it's a short runway use flaps 45 even if the perf calcs permit F25.

There is no need to perform a power off landing. If you find yourself needing to pull the power off and get the shaker going at any time then you need some additional training and a line check. I'm no Chuck Yeager and I can consistently put the thing down somewhere between the aiming points and the next set of markings. It ain't rocket science.

 

[Freebrd]

I flew the thing for 10 years, (10,000+ hours in the E120) and ALWAYS pulled the power off. Just before the wheels touched I would get the shaker sometimes. Nothing wrong with that as the wheels at that point are a matter of inches from the pavement. I also pulled the power off in the ATR72 and CRJ200 & 700. Try to land the CRJ with power and see how far down the runway you'll go!

Sorry but I don't buy the 12-15% power technique. It's really about technique anyway, and I've always touched down w/o power in everything I've flown. If a pilot wants to use 12-15% power in the landing knock yourself out. But I don't think you need to be critical of the way I land as most pilots where I fly use the same technique I use.

 

[skywestdrvr]

The 10% to 15% rule is usually used with a Flaps 45 landing. There is no need to use power if you are on speed crossing the threshold. Just ease the power back at about 100 feet and you should be fine.

 

[embdrvr]

Getting the shaker a few inches off the ground probably won't hurt anything. However if you pass that technique on to your FO's who then get a bit distracted and get the shaker while a bit farther off the ground then you'll be calling for a hard landing inspection. There are times I have to pull the power off completely if I've strayed from the profile. Personally I just fly the thing the way the company wants it flown. Our Standards guys don't want the shaker going off period. You're in a very small minority if you feel getting the shaker on landing is appropriate.

 

[Buford T Justic]

Pos !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[strega7]

Huh??

 

[AbOvo]

Umm yeah, if one of my FOs gets the shaker any time other than a stall test they'll be reminded of how they are supposed to fly. I totally understand it happens sometimes, I did it twice in the Brasilia and once in the RJ as an FO, however it should not be a goal or normal operation. It does not shorten your landing very much considering the consequences of being too high when it goes off.

IIRC Landing speeds that cause the shaker to activate are prohibited in the Brasilia.

Touchdown at ref to ref minus ten and use the reverse, you'll land short enough every time (as long as you're in the touchdown zone). Make sure you mix up the flaps 25 and 45 landings so you are good at both. It's pretty bad flying with an FO that can't land flaps 45 and you find out on short final.

Get to know your flows very well along with the profiles and you'll be set.