Current and past Lear 35 drivers

[TRBojet]

I recently accepted a job to fly a Lear 35a and wanted to gather any opinions about flying it. I'll be going to school in about two weeks and just wanted some info that might be unique to the airplane. Anything that you said "I wish I had known that earlier."

Thanks in advance
Tom

Oh yeah, what's there to do in Tucson? Any good golfing?

 

[passion4flying]

The 35a is a good airplane. The biggest thing I found is that on approach the plane has a tendency to display dutch roll characterics. It is easy to over-control. Sometime you might try cross-controlling a little. Great single engine characterics. Small cockpit. Other than that you pull up to make the world smaller, push down to make the world bigger and pull really hard to make the world even bigger. Just me .02 worth

Passion

 

[LearjetGA]

The 35 doesn't need much fuel, climbs fast (3000 ft/min full load) has good single engine caracteristics.

Don't go below vref. Depending on which S/N you are going to fly, you will find the yaw damper doing sometimes his own stuff. Just disengage it, reengage it.

First hour fuel about 1500, then 1300, 1200, ...

Landings are very easy, compared to the 20's, the 35 has a great wing and effective spoilers. The thrust reverses, if you have Aeronca's, can be a real pain in the ... neck !!!

Crosswind landings are easy if you fly the plane into the ground. A pitch up attitude with crosswind is going to get you in trouble, i.e. AOA close to the yellow range, tip tanks close to the ground, ...

After flying the plane for two years, i think that it's a great airplane. One of htese birds that you need to have flown in your career.

Fly safe.

LearjetGA

 

[Gulfstream 200]

a great airplane....no doubt.
very reliable, plenty of power, good learning experience!

Its just VERY small! like others said keep up VREF (I always liked VREF+10) dont get it slow...I never really noticed much dutch roll others talk about, maybe I was sleeping.....

Have fun, be careful, hope its a good outfit, lots of the smaller lear operators (Part 135) tend to be dirtbag operations....be safe, you will love the Learjet.

 

[Old Crow]

Can't say enough good things about the 35A. The only two Flight Levels you'll use are 390 and 410.

The biggest problem most newbies have is adjusting to the sinsitive pitch control that begins when you level off above 27,000 feet. The air is becoming less dense and as the aircraft accelerates you literally only need to think about controlling the pitch. Any movement of the yoke will end you with a constant dinging off the altitude alerter 300 ft. low then "ding" you're 300 ft. high. then "ding" again. Just relax and say "You got it"!

That dutch role thing is simple. Only occurs on final with the yaw damp off. If it happens, simply turn in on or put it into a slip.

You'll enjoy Tucson if you like ovens... Make sure you go to the bone yard. Other than that and a few cold co-cola's you'll be in the books most of the time any way.

The Lear is a joy to fly. Take a dart and put two big ass engines on it and there you have it.

Good luck and Enjoy the ride!

 

[Timebuilder]

Ref plus ten is nice and safe, but ref on a short final works fine....as long as you don't go below it. If you don't have reversers, you will like ref better than ref plus 10.

Figuring Vref is simple in the 35. You're landing with 4,000 lbs of fuel. Divide that in half, and think "20" instead of 2,000. You have four pax. Take "105", add the 20, and 4 (for the 4 pax). Add it all up, and your ref speed for landing is 129kts, and target speed is 139kts.

The damper is supposed to stay in until the flare, but I like to take it out just inside a 1/4 mile final, so I can slip for a crosswind. The "do-all" button on the yoke gets hit ONCE to take out the damper. After the landing rollout, slow down to a walking speed, just before you want to turn off the runway, then hit the steering lock button. Don't do this at speed, as a lot of accidents were caused by the steering taking the plane off into the grass at 90kts. Rely on the rudder only for steering until you are at taxi speed.

The reversers can be a pain. If you have the bucket type, no problem. If you have cascade reversers, you first have to raise the levers, and get them to "unlock" first, then deploy them.

Right after takeoff, start using nose down trim. Always use it in short "bursts", holding in the trim button center section and pushing the knob upward. Continuous trim application can lower the nose a little too quickly for passenger comfort.

Hopefully, that's enough to get you started.

Good luck. It's a nice ship.

 

[TRBojet]

Thanks

Thanks everyone for the insight. If the company gets the plane they were talking about, it has the Dee Howard TRs, so that'll be nice. I haven't heard anything good about the Aeroncas. Also, I know about the level off at high altitude; the F-28's autopilot was a piece of junk (had to play with it constantly.)

I think I'll be able to hang with this company until my furlough is over (whenever that'll be), but at least I'll get the LRJET type if they decide to close up shop.

Thanks again
Tom

 

[Bill Mostellar]

SimuFlight or Flight Safety

Where will you be going to school?

I was fortunate enough to fly Lears in the USAF for 8 years (operationally and schoolhouse). Most of the great attributes have already been mentioned.

Get used to leaning your head the left if you're going to the right seat - the cockpit is a bit small.

I wish you success!

 

[TRBojet]

I'll be going to Flightsafety in Tucson.

It should be fun. That cockpit does look small, especially when you're 6'1".

See ya

 

[temcgrew]

VREF?

hey check out www.jetreview.com for all of the lear 35 limitations, memory items, and annunciator panel. I have set it all up to memorize these three things. let me know if it helps any! or if there are any mistakes.

as for never go below Vref in a learjet. we had this long term debate at my company.(we have over 10 lears.) I have been told by folks I fly with that this is true, but when I asked someone to document it, I was told...."well, it's in THE BOOK." I was never told which book or were in whatever book he was talking about.
Also I have never been instructed to "never go below Vref" in a learjet. Ask your instructor when you go about this and he should be able to clear this up.

technique, even though it works fine for you should never be taught as absolute doctrine.

If you are going to drag a tip tank three inches over the runway, it won't be becouse you are 5 knots or so below Vref speed!!!!

 

[501261]

Tucson's a great place to go to school, beats the hell out of Wichita. Nice relaxed atmosphere.

As far as good eats in Tucson, I really like Chuy's Mesquite Broiler, and if you like a Tappan Yaki table there’s a really good one on the East side of town called Sakura, lots of memorabilia on the wall. There's a bunch of restaurants on the East side of town, if you can find you're way to Hooter's you'll probably drive by most of them.

You'll probably be staying at one of the airport hotels. They're OK, but they're not really that close to FS (you have to drive all the way around the airport). I'd recommend staying at the Marriott University- much better "scenery (UA coeds)" to look at and not that much further to drive.

You'll really enjoy flying the Lear, especially with a nice job to eventually go back to. Don't worry too much about the small cockpit, I'm 6'3" and I once had a 6'5" copilot. We'd just take the Jepps and seat cushions out and be fine. That's the big hint for big guys, the seat cushions are Velcro’d in, making them easy to take out, and taking the Jepps out from behind the seat gives you about 3 more inches of leg room!

 

[BlondAmbition]

Dear TURBojet,

With many years of flying Lears, I can recommend bringing 1 essential item-a small towell. You will use it for 2 things:

1) Wiping the sweat off from throwing bags over the seats and sitting in the cockpit doing flows and the like.

2) Wiping off the windscreen when you descend into a humid environment after 2.5 hours of being cold soaked.

It's a fun plane. I had my last flight in one in July. Glad to see it go, but I will always remember it fondly.

Don't forget your towel!

BA

 

[rice]

I'm 6'3" 235 lbs and it was a pretty tight fit. But its throwing the bags thats really a pain. Good Luck!! It's a fun ride.

Rice

 

[temcgrew]

the towel is a great idea, if your going to the southeast(florida) its a good idea to turn the windshield heat on right after takeoff!! but, you will still need the towel, ATC seems to think that all learjets can make it from FL350 to 10,000 ft in about 50 miles!!
I am 6'3 and can handle most flights up to 2.5 hours.

 

[servicemonkey]

Have fun. For me, flying the Lear is, at times, one of those "wow-they actually pay me to do this" deals.
Two things:
1.Don't get slow.
2.The fuel system WILL bite you if you let yourself get distracted while moving fuel around. Also, make sure the fuel panel is secure on shut down. Embarassing to get a call at the hotel from the FBO telling you that your plane is sitting on one of its tip tanks.
Best regards,
sm

 

[F/O]

Tom

I don't have that much time in the plane, but I know you are coming from the -300 so here are a couple of things you will notice.

First, you will realize how spoiled you were by the room in the Fokker and the Boeing. As others have mentioned, the Lear has an extremely small and I think downright uncomfortable cockpit. My seat sits all the way against the bulkhead and there's still nowhere near the legroom you have in a Boeing. Rudder pedals don't adjust, either.

Second, if it's hot and/or humid outside, the cockpit is a fiery furnace until about an hour after departure, and is especially bad on the ground. I don't think I've ever sweated as much as I did in the Lear on a recent trip back east. Literally soaked in sweat. The A/C works great in the back, though, so as long as you have a GPU the folks will be comfortable on the ground.

A few random observations follow. As you might expect, the Lear is quite a bit more responsive than the Boeing. It's a bit more difficult to fly SMOOTHLY. You will get used to this. You can't deploy the reversers with the nosewheel still off the ground like you can in the 737. Unless you are intentionally using aerodynamic braking to slow, you will lower the nosewheel onto the runway more positively than you do in the 737. Finally, the spoilers are controlled by a switch near the throttle quadrant. This is an "on/off" switch. You get all or nuthin'. Unlike the Boeing, it is impossible to deploy them smoothly. A pitch change and a terrific rumble will follow. You will be manually deploying them on landing. Gear and initial flap extension speeds are the same as the Fokker.

Performance is easy, and no getting spoiled by ACARS and authothrottles!!

Enjoy!!

 

[TRBojet]

Thanks all! I've enjoyed reading your observations on the airplane and your ideas for eats.

Tom

 

[tredding@swa]

electric socks

Your feet will freeze in the winter. I used electric socks, no joke. Much better than numb toes!!

Great little plane, you will enjoy flying it, like everyone else - Vref +5-10kts will keep you out of trouble.

Golf in TUS is great, you may not have time to play - FSI will keep you very busy preping for your type ride! Good Luck!

 

[FalconPilot69]

Cruise?

What is the typical or maybe I should say, what is the range of the Lear 35?

 

[banned username 2]

4 hours you would typically land with 1500 lbs of fuel...

last hour burn is about 1000-1100 lbs. so TECHNICALLY as far as the FAA is concerned you will have about 1:20 of fuel left.

 

[Rick1128]

Lear 35

A few points. I normally use 1600 lbs the first hour, 1500 the second and 1300 ever hour there after. But then most of my time is in 20's so I tend to be overly conservative on fuel. I would rather arrive with more than planned than less. As for altitudes, unless it is below ISA, I flight plan the 35 for 370 or 390 initially. And if above ISA +20 I back it down a step, 350 or 370. The fans really don't like thin air. These are initial altitudes. As I get lighter, I'll climb. But if the winds are exceptionally strong, I'll take the hit on airspeed and climb higher and let my groundspeed make up the difference. But the winds really have to be strong for that to pay off.

I have gotten 5.5 hours out of a 35 and landed with 1400 pounds. So it has good range.

As for ref speed, it depends on the wing. An origianl thin wing, you did not gt slow EVER!!!. There are three different wings. On the 35 the rarest is the Mark 4, there are only a few early models that have that wing mod. I have never flown a Mark 4, so I will not comment on it. If you have a century 3 wing I would fly the approach no slower than ref + 5, inside the fence at ref. The Softflight wing, the approach no slower than ref and inside the fence at ref -5. I do tend to keep my speed about 5 knots above that except for very short fields. I have taken 25's and 35's in 3000 foot runways. And turned off at the mid point. They will do it. One thing about a Lear that is different than most bizjets is that if you can get it in, you can get it out.

The windshield, you need to keep warm. Down here in Houston, I use windshield heat from gear up until I am back on the ramp.

The 'Dutch Roll' on landing is mostly casued by the pilot. The wings do rock, but they start back so fast that when you recognize it and put in a corection, you are actually making the problem worse.

A trick on the spoilers, I crank in about 15 sec's of nose up trim before I extend them and then keep adding nose up trim until I am comfortable. And I do the reverse when I stow them.

As for FSI, I have been to Simuflie and FSI on the Lear and ICT and TUS. I much prefer Wichita. Mostly because it is a smaller facility, much friendlier and most of the instructors there have been there for years if not decades. And they really know the aircraft.

Good luck

 

[Timebuilder]

Spoilers in the 35: (check to be sure the flaps are UP)

1) power back

2) flip the switch, and pull back on the yoke to counter the nose-down moment

3) about four seconds of nose up trim to relieve the back pressure


The softflight wing is pretty common from what I have seen. Our last plane was just converted to this during its RVSM work. We are getting it back this week.

How are you doing so far?

 

[banned username 2]

Re: Lear 35

I have gotten 5.5 hours out of a 35 and landed with 1400 pounds. So it has good range.

How on earth did you do this? What were you doing M0.68 or something? Are you sure you weren't in a Lear 36?

I used to land after 4 hours and have around 1600-1800 lbs. that was doing M0.78 at FL390 & FL430

 

[F/O]

I have gotten 5.5 hours out of a 35 and landed with 1400 pounds. So it has good range.

I agree with Falcon Capt

We flew a 5 hr leg recently (exactly) and landed with 1000 lb, what I would consider minimum VFR conditions rsv. Winds aloft were very light, nice aft CG, our final cruise level was 430, and ATC gave us a PD descent, allowing us to stay high. 5.5 hrs would have had us landing with 600 lbs, so I'm not sure how you get 1400.

 

[Rick1128]

First of all I had three things going for me. A good light a/c. No TR's and ISA plus 30 at altitude. Used long range cruise from the start. Forced it to 430 as soon as I was light enough to get there. Used a minimum fuel descent. It helped that I was someplace that didn't have a lot of traffic or an US style ATC. NO radar. A couple of notes: First there were several airports in the area of the destination, I could use as bail out spots. Second, I was planning on between 1000 and 1100 pounds. And three, considering that area of the world, I didn't have a lot of choices available. It a lot like over water flying, you hit the equal time point, if you have enough fuel, you keep going. If not, you turn around.

Timebuilder, I used to use that method. Was shown mine by a couple of very high time Lear drivers. It is a lot smoother. Spoiler extention is more noticable in the back than the front. Remember, directly or indirectly, the people in back are the ones that pay you.

 

[Timebuilder]

I guess that there is always another way.

If I were to add up the total time of the guys that taught me my method, I'd be looking at close to 40,000 hours of passenger ops in total.

Are you holding forward pressure as you crank in the fifteen seconds of trim? Releasing forward pressure as the spoilers pop up? I'm always willing to try a new way, if it works.

 

[Rick1128]

Timebuilder,

Yes, I am holding in forward pressure. For me it is a whole lot smoother.

 

[LJDRVR]

Concerning the 5.5 hour flight with 1400 remaining. Rick's correct. I've flown a couple of the no T/R 35's, they are completely different AC in many respects. The best low-fuel descent profile I've used is a 2:1 with the power up to keep the AC at redline the whole way down. Think ahead so that once you do pull it to idle, you don't touch em' again until about 1000' AAE.

 

[beytzim]

On the 5.5 hours theory:

I've gotten 1350# the first hour, step climbed up to 410 then 430 then 450. Second hour 1100#, third hour 950#, fourth hour 900#, the next half hour 450# and then 200# for descent. With starting fuel of 6238, you can land at 1275#. That was on a flight from Oakland to Orlando. ISA-10 and avg of 70 knot tailwind. 4:45 minutes with flying at .70-.75M

I guess I could have strethed it down to 1000# and gotten another 15 minutes. That's still only 5.0 hours. The previous guy mentioned ISA+30, I think he is very confused.

to temcgrew:
I've flown with guys who consistently land below Vref. To each his own - but I think its a bad habit. I never land below Vref. The mains touch exactly at Vref. I cross the fence at Vref+7. You're just asking for trouble in the case of windshear, wind gusts, and controllability issues. In addition, in a high x-wind, tip tank strikes are more probable. How? a below Vref touchdown with a constant rate of descent requires a higher angel of attack which raises the aircraft pitch attitude. This cuts the distance of the tip- tank to runway significantly. Add a bank angle and there you have it.

Other Lear tips:
1. Spoilers out, trim up 3 (three) seconds; spoilers in, trim down 3(three) seconds.

2. If you're new to the Lear, practice hand flying up to FL410 and level off for several minutes. On the descent, hand fly it again. The autopilot WILL fail on you, don't let that be the first time you're hand flying up at FL410.

3. Here's a trick of slowing down. If you're high and fast, simply extend the spoilers and gear. Slow the aircraft to 180 knots and then retract the spoilers. At the same time, select flaps 20. No trim change is required.

4. The Garrett engines sometime flame out. If you catch it early enough (N1>20%) , bring the throttle to idle and turn the ignitors on. The engine will probably start right up.

5. If you fly the older lear with the FL450 pressurization, (the one that does NOT have the 9500' automatic emer valves) make sure you memorize the alternate way to allow bleed air into the cockpit. It's a 3 step process!

6. Fueling the Lear is a trick. Don't bother with the books' limitation of 120 gals per side. Your goal is to make sure there are no bubbles! First make sure the Lear is parked on level ground. If not, it may take much more that 120 gals to even the airplane out. If you do get the dreaded bubble, (and you have to fill'er up), simply turn the airplane around 180 degrees. Yes, you can hand push it!

7. Aft CG increases performance. Transfer fuel out of Trunk only when you have to - not when below 760 in the tips!

8. According to the AFM and the Garrett manual: Normal climb is 250/.7M. Also climb power for engine longevity is 800 ITT - tha't per Garrett! Also, per the AFM, proper climb power should be set at 15,000 per the max Cont charts and then use that temp until cruise. 832 is max Cont, not a normal condition. Normal cruise according to the AFM is M.77, period. Long Range cruise changes with weight and alt, but is generally M0.7. Some guys get a kick flying at 359/0.82M. I fly intermediate cruise at 300 knots not to exceed M0.770.

9. Holding power - set 500pph and you can't go wrong.

Somebody mentioned earlier that you can't extend the TR's with the nose off the ground. Of course you can, however, it may not be very smart.

 

[TRBojet]

Update

Hey all:

Just an update on training. It's all going very well. FSI instructors are very knowledgeable. I will print out these pages about tips on flying it (spoilers,etc.) So far, the plane seems very similar to the Fokker (with a BIG exception to the performance). I think the type ride should go well.

Thanks again.