Curious about Eclipse Pay

jafo20

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Does anyone know what future Eclipse operators are planning on paying their pilots?
 

RamDaddy

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You mean they ware actually going to pay their pilots? That such a cool plane I'd be willing to pay them. Maybe they'll let me do it for free, that way everyone is happy...
 

Snakum

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User546

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Put on your flame-retardant RamDaddy... it's coming...

No idea, the truth of the matter is it'll probably be just a bunch of owner/operators, and I can't imagine the pay would be anything to switch jobs for. There will be some smaller companies that buy them, who previously couldn't justify the costs of a corporate aircraft, but that remains to be seen exactly how big of a market that turns out to be.

Problem is, they're building these airplanes so that ANYONE can fly them. And I assume that'll be a hot-bed market for low time guys who'll be willing to do it for next to nothing - therefore killing any kind of decent salary that could be made flying it.
 

FalconPilot69

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The new Dr. and Lawyer killer...

Now unfortunately, you will have these guys who cannot stay ahead of their A36's and B58's killing themselves at 3 times the speed. Are these things going to be RVSM compliant?

While I like the concept, I think that there will be a lot of fatalities due to low time pilots not staying current on the aircraft let alone flying it enough to know the aircraft.

I do hope that I am wrong though.

Fly Safe.
 

Traderd

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User997 said:
Put on your flame-retardant RamDaddy... it's coming...

No idea, the truth of the matter is it'll probably be just a bunch of owner/operators, and I can't imagine the pay would be anything to switch jobs for. There will be some smaller companies that buy them, who previously couldn't justify the costs of a corporate aircraft, but that remains to be seen exactly how big of a market that turns out to be.

Problem is, they're building these airplanes so that ANYONE can fly them. And I assume that'll be a hot-bed market for low time guys who'll be willing to do it for next to nothing - therefore killing any kind of decent salary that could be made flying it.
For owners/operators/investors, the idea that anyone can fly them does''t appear to be a problem, rather a real benefit. And of course the idea that anyone can fly them includes the safety caveat.

I have always felt that airlines should consider the JetBlue model in reverse. Aircraft should be made so simple to fly that instead of an aircrew helping out to clean the plane, the aircraft cleaners would help out and fly the plane. Is it possible for this to happen? I have no idea but outside of the VLJ/SATS concepts, it doesn't appear to have any real support.

No entity should aspire to manufacture or deliver a product with an increasingly complex manufacturing or delivery structure. All machines used in the production of goods should have a downward pressure placed on their operational complexity so that it will be increasingly easier to replace those operators. While those aspiring to make a living as professional pilots may cringe at the thought of developing an aircraft that required very little training or skills to operate effectively and safely, keep in mind the objective of any corporation is to maximize the wealth of the shareholders and as such, if complexity reduction would result in more capital retained by the shareholders then that would be the route to take. IMHO

I am guessing that the ready supply of qualified labor at what some here describe as poverty level wages keeps this idea on the back burner. But it would seem that sooner or later competitive pressures will result in a simpler aviation operating environment. I think most here will admit it is not a very difficult process as it stands, but it is still such that depending on the certificates required the process can take years to provide a suitable operator.

Anyone here with a cross section of experience between the old (let's say B727) and the new (I don't know - A320)? Are modern aircraft easier to fly or is there more training required of you now?
 

CorpLearDriver

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User997 said:
Put on your flame-retardant RamDaddy... it's coming...

No idea, the truth of the matter is it'll probably be just a bunch of owner/operators, and I can't imagine the pay would be anything to switch jobs for. There will be some smaller companies that buy them, who previously couldn't justify the costs of a corporate aircraft, but that remains to be seen exactly how big of a market that turns out to be.

Problem is, they're building these airplanes so that ANYONE can fly them. And I assume that'll be a hot-bed market for low time guys who'll be willing to do it for next to nothing - therefore killing any kind of decent salary that could be made flying it.
Considering that the test pilots just geared one up on Tuesday at ABQ and the company is claiming there was no mechanical failure, of course calling it pilot error, the "Anyone" statement might be a little premature. (sic) But then again, if the pilot error is true, there may be two more pilot positions in the craft @ ABQ.......
 

ACT700

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...and you guys thought 500 hour RJ copilots are bad.

Wait 'til the flight levels fill up with "owner-operator" flown VLJs...
 

Well-hung Start

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Who's gonna insure these boneheads?

500TT, 00 in type, and a high-altitude, single-pilot, turbojet?

What are they smoking!

My guess is that pay will have to be very competitive with regional Captains pay, since they'll need to attract 1000 turbojet-PIC dudes.
 

HMR

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What's the useful load on the Eclipse? It can't be much. I'm predicting Eclipse will go out of business from all the lawsuits by fat pilots.
 

CorpLearDriver

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HMR said:
What's the useful load on the Eclipse? It can't be much. I'm predicting Eclipse will go out of business from all the lawsuits by fat pilots.
I don't know what the official numbers are but my guess is it will be something like the useful load of a Cessna 340. With full tanks, you can get about 250 lbs into a 340. The Eclipse might have a little bit more. But I think it will be very limited with full fuel. The MGW is less than 7,000 lbs, which about what a Piper Chieftain weighs.
 

SIG600

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ACT700 said:
...and you guys thought 500 hour RJ copilots are bad.

Wait 'til the flight levels fill up with "owner-operator" flown VLJs...
Won't take long till all those guys are racking up violations if they suck that bad. I have a feeling insurance will be the bigger hurdle. No one is gonna insure someone with less than AT LEAST 1,500 TT (and thats a stretch) to operate a turbojet anything.
 

pilotmiketx

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You ought to do your homework before postulating about that which you know little or nothing.

Since the Eclipse is RVSM and single pilot and a jet, and also very near certification, did anyone consider that maybe the insurance topic maybe came up at a managment meeting once? Elipse and Adam Acft. have worked with the insurance companies since their designs were merely concepts.

Regarding the Eclipse, it's been widely reported that the owner-operator is going to need 1500+ and a bunch of high performance and instrument time BEFORE going through the approved training course. Then he gets a babysitter in the right seat for a while until he can be turned loose on his own.

I agree that if VLJs become as popular as the manufacturers are telling everyone, then something will need to be done about airspace congestion. Imagine every doctor in his Bonanza flying around in the 20s and 30s. I'm just glad I do it at 400 and above.
 

mzaharis

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pilotmiketx said:
You ought to do your homework before postulating about that which you know little or nothing.

Since the Eclipse is RVSM and single pilot and a jet, and also very near certification, did anyone consider that maybe the insurance topic maybe came up at a managment meeting once? Elipse and Adam Acft. have worked with the insurance companies since their designs were merely concepts.

Regarding the Eclipse, it's been widely reported that the owner-operator is going to need 1500+ and a bunch of high performance and instrument time BEFORE going through the approved training course. Then he gets a babysitter in the right seat for a while until he can be turned loose on his own.

I agree that if VLJs become as popular as the manufacturers are telling everyone, then something will need to be done about airspace congestion. Imagine every doctor in his Bonanza flying around in the 20s and 30s. I'm just glad I do it at 400 and above.
Offered without opinion (except that buying an Eclipse looks like a good excuse for some time in an L-39):

http://www.ainonline.com/Publications/EBACE/EBACE_05/d3vljp1.htm

Success of VLJs could be down to insurance, training

by Brian Walters

The prospect of thousands of very light jets (VLJs) darkening the skies of first the U.S., then Europe and the rest of the world, will gladden the hearts of aircraft sales persons but safety and air traffic control authorities are not so sure. Alarmed at the prospect of litigation claims that follow accidents, the insurance world is insisting that the very highest standard of training is provided to the owner-drivers who may well be flying a jet for the first time.

With these concerns in mind, the U.S. National Business Aviation Association (NBAA) has just issued training guidelines based on inputs from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), Adam Aircraft, Cessna, Eclipse, insurance underwriters and flight-training providers.

Eclipse Aviation has been first off in revealing its training plans for Eclipse 500 customers, concluding an agreement with the United Flight Training Center in Denver, Colorado, to provide both an initial flight skills assessment, as well as type rating transition training. Would-be jet jocks will need to have a private pilot certificate as well as instrument and multi-engine ratings before even being considered for assessment.

This will include a review of overall experience and if this initial hurdle is overcome, candidate customers will then train on a United Airlines’ Boeing 737 full-motion simulator for up to 90 minutes. A UA instructor will assess the candidates’ instrument proficiency and airmanship skills, rather than determine their ability to handle a Boeing 737, but their performance will lead to a decision as to whether they should proceed to the formal Eclipse 500 type-rating transition course. Should a subsequent retake of the flight simulator assessment be considered necessary, that would be at the candidate’s expense.

Under a separate agreement with Boeing’s Alteon subsidiary, Eclipse has developed a training program that will include use of a full-motion flight simulator as well as a flight in a company-owned Aero Vodochody L-39 jet trainer.

Eclipse plans to open European training centers and is talking to Alteon among others with a view to providing flight training for customers in the region in time for first deliveries in 2006.

Embraer’s senior vice president of business aircraft market Luis Carlos Affonso told EBACE Convention News that although a comprehensive training program will be developed, the company’s just-launched VLJ would be easy to fly. “Simple guidance–just like the GPS in your car,” is Affonso’s description of the philosophy applied to the cockpit design. Also the provision of a moving map, TCAS, an autopilot, FMS and FADEC for the PW617F engines will all contribute to enhanced situational awareness for single-pilot operation. Three large displays will simplify the monitoring of essential data.

Cessna chairman, president and CEO Jack Pelton told EBACE Convention News “one barrier to greater sales is insurability.” The company plans to ensure that the training provided to Mustang customers will be better than that for professional pilots. In common with other VLJ developers, Cessna warms to the concept of providing mentor pilots to ensure that inexperienced Mustang users gain confidence.

Use of a full-motion flight simulator will be an essential part of Mustang training and although FlightSafety International provides much of the training for other Citation jets, the appointment of training provider for the Mustang program has been opened to competition, with an award expected within four weeks.

The Adam Aircraft A700 is expecting early 2006 certification but in accordance with the NBAA VLJ training guidelines, it too envisages the use of mentors to help owners with limited pilot experience. The company plans to provide an instructor/mentor pilot for up to 25 hours of flight experience at no charge in the A700, including the type-rating course. For the minimal experience pilot more used to flying a Cessna or Piper single, as much as 125 hours pilot mentor time may be necessary. Recurrent training will also be offered and this will require three computer-based training scenarios and one flight per year.

Finally, the Aviation Technology Group’s (ATG) Javelin Executive Jet is certainly the hot rod of the new VLJ class and the first flight of the demonstrator prototype is imminent. This will be certified under FAR Part 23 and the company takes the view that for pilots with at least 1,500 hours total time and a multi-engine rating, the type rating should be a relatively simple matter. ATG plans to contract a U.S.-based flight-training center and will expect candidates to have 2,000 factored hours to qualify.
 

AA717driver

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An acquaintance owns a software company. No shortage of cash. He takes his flying seriously--FSI twice a year and flies all the time. He has a fair amount of flight time.

He owned a Piper Malibu piston. He wanted something faster and larger. He mentioned a Citation SP. His insurance agent fell out of the chair laughing.

He is now flying a KA200... (I still don't get why the Citation is considered more of a handful than a King Air. But, I don't have much time in either.)

The insurance industry may be working with the manufacturers but at the first hint of trouble, the rates will go above the service ceiling of these small jets.TC
 

ackattacker

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AA717driver said:
He owned a Piper Malibu piston. He wanted something faster and larger. He mentioned a Citation SP. His insurance agent fell out of the chair laughing.

He is now flying a KA200... (I still don't get why the Citation is considered more of a handful than a King Air. But, I don't have much time in either.)
I don't have any time in either... but maybe it's because Citation pilots keep running them off the end of the runway. At least a King Air has effective reverse.

BTW I've flown with plenty of owner pilots who "take safety very seriously" and "spare no expense" in training. Most of them are frighteningly dangerous. I remember one guy, more money than brains, had a Cirrus. Told me he flies "just like the airlines" which to him meant IFR on severe clear days and autopilot on from rotation to flare. Told him to demonstrate a stall and he refused, saying it was "unsafe".

Later I heard that his autopilot had failed him on a x-country. He declared an emergency, landed at the first available airport and sold the plane (didn't trust it anymore, never flew it again). I kid you not. He has an order in for a Citation Mustang.

Another guy, FSI trained, got the stall buffet on a 421 cause he got too slow in the climb (we were carrying a light frosting of ice). Freaked out, had no idea what was going on. I told him to lower the nose and he couldn't bring himself to do it because we were assigned a climb. I had to take over, he probably would have spun it in. He has an order in for an Adam Aircraft.

I could go on and on. These guys all think that technology is what makes airplanes safe. The warning signs is when they spend all their free time talking about the avionics instead of the aerodynamics. You couldn't pay me enough to babysit these guys (again).
 

XTW

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AA717driver said:
He is now flying a KA200... (I still don't get why the Citation is considered more of a handful than a King Air. But, I don't have much time in either.)TC
Ya know AA717, I don't see any Citation time in your profile. Maybe that's why you don't get it!:rolleyes:


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