Curious about Eclipse Pay

[CorpLearDriver]

What's the useful load on the Eclipse? It can't be much. I'm predicting Eclipse will go out of business from all the lawsuits by fat pilots.

I don't know what the official numbers are but my guess is it will be something like the useful load of a Cessna 340. With full tanks, you can get about 250 lbs into a 340. The Eclipse might have a little bit more. But I think it will be very limited with full fuel. The MGW is less than 7,000 lbs, which about what a Piper Chieftain weighs.

 

[SIG600]

...and you guys thought 500 hour RJ copilots are bad.

Wait 'til the flight levels fill up with "owner-operator" flown VLJs...

Won't take long till all those guys are racking up violations if they suck that bad. I have a feeling insurance will be the bigger hurdle. No one is gonna insure someone with less than AT LEAST 1,500 TT (and thats a stretch) to operate a turbojet anything.

 

[pilotmiketx]

You ought to do your homework before postulating about that which you know little or nothing.

Since the Eclipse is RVSM and single pilot and a jet, and also very near certification, did anyone consider that maybe the insurance topic maybe came up at a managment meeting once? Elipse and Adam Acft. have worked with the insurance companies since their designs were merely concepts.

Regarding the Eclipse, it's been widely reported that the owner-operator is going to need 1500+ and a bunch of high performance and instrument time BEFORE going through the approved training course. Then he gets a babysitter in the right seat for a while until he can be turned loose on his own.

I agree that if VLJs become as popular as the manufacturers are telling everyone, then something will need to be done about airspace congestion. Imagine every doctor in his Bonanza flying around in the 20s and 30s. I'm just glad I do it at 400 and above.

 

[mzaharis]

You ought to do your homework before postulating about that which you know little or nothing.

Since the Eclipse is RVSM and single pilot and a jet, and also very near certification, did anyone consider that maybe the insurance topic maybe came up at a managment meeting once? Elipse and Adam Acft. have worked with the insurance companies since their designs were merely concepts.

Regarding the Eclipse, it's been widely reported that the owner-operator is going to need 1500+ and a bunch of high performance and instrument time BEFORE going through the approved training course. Then he gets a babysitter in the right seat for a while until he can be turned loose on his own.

I agree that if VLJs become as popular as the manufacturers are telling everyone, then something will need to be done about airspace congestion. Imagine every doctor in his Bonanza flying around in the 20s and 30s. I'm just glad I do it at 400 and above.

Offered without opinion (except that buying an Eclipse looks like a good excuse for some time in an L-39):

http://www.ainonline.com/Publications/EBACE/EBACE_05/d3vljp1.htm

Success of VLJs could be down to insurance, training

by Brian Walters

The prospect of thousands of very light jets (VLJs) darkening the skies of first the U.S., then Europe and the rest of the world, will gladden the hearts of aircraft sales persons but safety and air traffic control authorities are not so sure. Alarmed at the prospect of litigation claims that follow accidents, the insurance world is insisting that the very highest standard of training is provided to the owner-drivers who may well be flying a jet for the first time.

With these concerns in mind, the U.S. National Business Aviation Association (NBAA) has just issued training guidelines based on inputs from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), Adam Aircraft, Cessna, Eclipse, insurance underwriters and flight-training providers.

Eclipse Aviation has been first off in revealing its training plans for Eclipse 500 customers, concluding an agreement with the United Flight Training Center in Denver, Colorado, to provide both an initial flight skills assessment, as well as type rating transition training. Would-be jet jocks will need to have a private pilot certificate as well as instrument and multi-engine ratings before even being considered for assessment.

This will include a review of overall experience and if this initial hurdle is overcome, candidate customers will then train on a United Airlines’ Boeing 737 full-motion simulator for up to 90 minutes. A UA instructor will assess the candidates’ instrument proficiency and airmanship skills, rather than determine their ability to handle a Boeing 737, but their performance will lead to a decision as to whether they should proceed to the formal Eclipse 500 type-rating transition course. Should a subsequent retake of the flight simulator assessment be considered necessary, that would be at the candidate’s expense.

Under a separate agreement with Boeing’s Alteon subsidiary, Eclipse has developed a training program that will include use of a full-motion flight simulator as well as a flight in a company-owned Aero Vodochody L-39 jet trainer.

Eclipse plans to open European training centers and is talking to Alteon among others with a view to providing flight training for customers in the region in time for first deliveries in 2006.

Embraer’s senior vice president of business aircraft market Luis Carlos Affonso told EBACE Convention News that although a comprehensive training program will be developed, the company’s just-launched VLJ would be easy to fly. “Simple guidance–just like the GPS in your car,” is Affonso’s description of the philosophy applied to the cockpit design. Also the provision of a moving map, TCAS, an autopilot, FMS and FADEC for the PW617F engines will all contribute to enhanced situational awareness for single-pilot operation. Three large displays will simplify the monitoring of essential data.

Cessna chairman, president and CEO Jack Pelton told EBACE Convention News “one barrier to greater sales is insurability.” The company plans to ensure that the training provided to Mustang customers will be better than that for professional pilots. In common with other VLJ developers, Cessna warms to the concept of providing mentor pilots to ensure that inexperienced Mustang users gain confidence.

Use of a full-motion flight simulator will be an essential part of Mustang training and although FlightSafety International provides much of the training for other Citation jets, the appointment of training provider for the Mustang program has been opened to competition, with an award expected within four weeks.

The Adam Aircraft A700 is expecting early 2006 certification but in accordance with the NBAA VLJ training guidelines, it too envisages the use of mentors to help owners with limited pilot experience. The company plans to provide an instructor/mentor pilot for up to 25 hours of flight experience at no charge in the A700, including the type-rating course. For the minimal experience pilot more used to flying a Cessna or Piper single, as much as 125 hours pilot mentor time may be necessary. Recurrent training will also be offered and this will require three computer-based training scenarios and one flight per year.

Finally, the Aviation Technology Group’s (ATG) Javelin Executive Jet is certainly the hot rod of the new VLJ class and the first flight of the demonstrator prototype is imminent. This will be certified under FAR Part 23 and the company takes the view that for pilots with at least 1,500 hours total time and a multi-engine rating, the type rating should be a relatively simple matter. ATG plans to contract a U.S.-based flight-training center and will expect candidates to have 2,000 factored hours to qualify.

 

[AA717driver]

An acquaintance owns a software company. No shortage of cash. He takes his flying seriously--FSI twice a year and flies all the time. He has a fair amount of flight time.

He owned a Piper Malibu piston. He wanted something faster and larger. He mentioned a Citation SP. His insurance agent fell out of the chair laughing.

He is now flying a KA200... (I still don't get why the Citation is considered more of a handful than a King Air. But, I don't have much time in either.)

The insurance industry may be working with the manufacturers but at the first hint of trouble, the rates will go above the service ceiling of these small jets.TC

 

[ackattacker]

He owned a Piper Malibu piston. He wanted something faster and larger. He mentioned a Citation SP. His insurance agent fell out of the chair laughing.

He is now flying a KA200... (I still don't get why the Citation is considered more of a handful than a King Air. But, I don't have much time in either.)

I don't have any time in either... but maybe it's because Citation pilots keep running them off the end of the runway. At least a King Air has effective reverse.

BTW I've flown with plenty of owner pilots who "take safety very seriously" and "spare no expense" in training. Most of them are frighteningly dangerous. I remember one guy, more money than brains, had a Cirrus. Told me he flies "just like the airlines" which to him meant IFR on severe clear days and autopilot on from rotation to flare. Told him to demonstrate a stall and he refused, saying it was "unsafe".

Later I heard that his autopilot had failed him on a x-country. He declared an emergency, landed at the first available airport and sold the plane (didn't trust it anymore, never flew it again). I kid you not. He has an order in for a Citation Mustang.

Another guy, FSI trained, got the stall buffet on a 421 cause he got too slow in the climb (we were carrying a light frosting of ice). Freaked out, had no idea what was going on. I told him to lower the nose and he couldn't bring himself to do it because we were assigned a climb. I had to take over, he probably would have spun it in. He has an order in for an Adam Aircraft.

I could go on and on. These guys all think that technology is what makes airplanes safe. The warning signs is when they spend all their free time talking about the avionics instead of the aerodynamics. You couldn't pay me enough to babysit these guys (again).

 

[XTW]

He is now flying a KA200... (I still don't get why the Citation is considered more of a handful than a King Air. But, I don't have much time in either.)TC

Ya know AA717, I don't see any Citation time in your profile. Maybe that's why you don't get it!


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