Ailerongirl
Back in DFW!
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2003
- Posts
- 874
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
Crew Scheduling
- Thread starter Palerider957
- Start date
- Watchers 15
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
Puh-leeze!!
asarjfo
Scheduling Fodder
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 272
shamrock said:Let's see, I flew 69 hours in October, was on duty for 170, and was away from home for over 300. Boy, am I glad I only signed up for part time!!!
I do understand that it is part of the job, but I would think that someone who works for a regional would be a little better informed.
I believe I work for the same airline as palerider and I have had the same experiences he has. Last summer, toward the end of my sixth day on reserve, I went to the airport to catch a 6:40 flight out. I was legal, duty time-wise, until 9 so I called scheduling at 6:25 to get released. After I explained the situation, the queen beeyotch I talked to told me I had to wait until 7 (after my flight left) to be released, despite the fact that I had a 2 hour call out which would allow only 35 minutes on duty.That's not even long enough for one turn around the pattern in ATL, but unfortunately, this is the kind of stupidity we must deal with.
As rumorhasit said, he "must look at the overall picture of operations", meaning we don't have all the information. Fair enough, but likewise, we as pilots have to look at the overall picture of our lives (which our schedulers couldn't care less about) and simply don't take kindly to a scheduler on a power trip screwing with them unneccesarily.
BTW, I don't have a problem with dispatchers either.
If you know that you are not legal, just get on the flight and go home. I played the scheduling game for a year while commuting. I tried to be civil like most of you, but towards the end it seemed the crew schedulers were just plain mean. I used to count back from the end of my reserve day to get my own "release" time.
Lets say your reserve day is over by 10 pm.
2 hour call - 8 pm
1 hour duty in - 7 pm.
Round trip to MCN 2 hours 5 pm.
If I had not heard from crew scheduling by around 5pm I jumped on Airtran and headed home. Guess what.....they never called.
As far as the "short call" DO NOT DO IT!!! If it says two hours.....make it 2 hours and 1 hour to duty in. NO EXCEPTIONS!!!
Palerider957
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2003
- Posts
- 975
rumorhasit:
You TOTALLY missed my point. We all KNOW planes/crews/flights have to be scheduled, we all KNOW planes break and crews get sick, we all KNOW there is a big picture.
My point is that many airlines are able to schedule with COMPETANCE and without CONSTANTLY lying and violating the contract. You say you have many factors to consider--LEARN THE CONTRACT AND KNOW YOUR JOB. I could not be as incompetant as our schedulers and still keep my job. You can't have a pilot who doesn't have a clue.
You think our life is so golden, fine get a degree, get all of your ratings, build some time (in poverty), then apply for and get a regional job. Then YOU will be schedulings bit.ch as a junior reserve guy. Enjoy. You seem like this is your goal, we'll talk again when you are on line.
Beleive me, I'm sure I'm older than you, I've worked many jobs through the years. It's MUCH less stressful to work more hours consistantly, then to work fewer hours on a moments notice.
Schedulers don't realize that if they treated us well, we would treat them well and not ALWAYS resist even when we want to fly. Due to the way I've been treated I always enforce the contract to the letter with no equivication. There are a couple of schedulers I'll work with, but the rest can go pound salt.
Outermarket:
Yes, I'm doing what I want to do---that does NOT automatically make me a bit.ch for scheduluers. I can see it now, "Gee, he's living the dream, let's screw with him some more today."
Shamrock:
You should have gotten on the flight anyway. If they have a problem with that, call the CPO and explain the timing, they will usually back you up when they are acting like 1st graders on a power trip. Here is the ALPA Crew Sched. Hotline 928-899-8900, they have helped my many times. In about 7 or 8 recent battles with scheduling, I've only lost one.
You TOTALLY missed my point. We all KNOW planes/crews/flights have to be scheduled, we all KNOW planes break and crews get sick, we all KNOW there is a big picture.
My point is that many airlines are able to schedule with COMPETANCE and without CONSTANTLY lying and violating the contract. You say you have many factors to consider--LEARN THE CONTRACT AND KNOW YOUR JOB. I could not be as incompetant as our schedulers and still keep my job. You can't have a pilot who doesn't have a clue.
You think our life is so golden, fine get a degree, get all of your ratings, build some time (in poverty), then apply for and get a regional job. Then YOU will be schedulings bit.ch as a junior reserve guy. Enjoy. You seem like this is your goal, we'll talk again when you are on line.
Beleive me, I'm sure I'm older than you, I've worked many jobs through the years. It's MUCH less stressful to work more hours consistantly, then to work fewer hours on a moments notice.
Schedulers don't realize that if they treated us well, we would treat them well and not ALWAYS resist even when we want to fly. Due to the way I've been treated I always enforce the contract to the letter with no equivication. There are a couple of schedulers I'll work with, but the rest can go pound salt.
Outermarket:
Yes, I'm doing what I want to do---that does NOT automatically make me a bit.ch for scheduluers. I can see it now, "Gee, he's living the dream, let's screw with him some more today."
Shamrock:
You should have gotten on the flight anyway. If they have a problem with that, call the CPO and explain the timing, they will usually back you up when they are acting like 1st graders on a power trip. Here is the ALPA Crew Sched. Hotline 928-899-8900, they have helped my many times. In about 7 or 8 recent battles with scheduling, I've only lost one.
Lear70
JAFFO
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2003
- Posts
- 7,487
Here at PinchNickle (Pinnacle), our problems come from several different sides of the coin: First, let's agree that there's a BIG difference between the Schedulers and Dispatchers. That said, at THIS airline, I believe very few of the "dispatchers" actually have that license - most are "flight followers" who spit out releases and have one, maybe two actual licensed dispatchers acting as supervisors. I've heard more than once that our dispatchers churn out more releases per dispatcher than any other airline in the U.S., regional or major; how are they supposed to keep track of us or seriously consider weather, MEL requirements, etc when all they're doing is spitting our releases? I know we have a few exceptions to the rule, but I for one, think they do a pretty decent job given their work load and it's not that big of a deal to call them up and tell them, "Hey, that weather probably isn't going to work - how about this route?" or "Hey, our outflow valve has been deferred and wired open so we're unpressurized, care to change our altitude to 9,000' to go DTW-ERI instead of 16,000'?" That's OUR job - catch things like that BEFORE they become a problem.
Our Schedulers on the other hand, often are here as their first job in the aviation arena and have no aviation education except what our corporate executives give them. If our corporate executives are setting the tone with these individuals that we are expendable assets to be used to the maximum permissable by FAR and/or contract regardless of any other concerns, is it any wonder then that those schedulers treat us the way they do?? The best schedulers we have are those with Commercial MEL certificates trying to get into the airplanes, but many of those who don't have such aspirations are d*mn near impossible to work with and generate 90% of our aggravation.
PaleRider: I understand your frustration, but regarding your original post, take it from a guy who's been on reserve for the last 4 years between two carriers: DO NOT start using reciprocity as a scheduling tactic. You will end up on the losing side of that deal EVERY TIME! They WILL remember your name. You WILL get abused as much as possible - every time a crap trip or assignment comes up and they can contractually and legally assign it to you - you WILL get it. Seen it happen too often and been on that side of the coin more than once...
Hey Shamrock... have you ever heard of the "Self Release Program"? Step 1: Be off probation. Step 2. Be certain you can't be used legally. Step 3. Leave. (editorial credit to GB).
DoinTme: You forgot to mention crews stranded at the oustation because the company put us up at a Fleabag hotel and the F/O got bit by a Brown Recluse...
Rumorhasit: Maybe we don't see the big picture all of the time, but don't buy the Koolaid the company feeds you - the truth is probably somewhere in the middle... which you will probably have a unique perspective on... after a few months on reserve!
Ailerongurl - with your moto at the bottom, are you the girl that keeps coming forward with your back to the cockpit door, cutting one loose, then going back to the passengers while that lovely odor works its way into the flight deck?
And the mechanics keep wondering why we have to service the O2 so often...
p.s. What the h*ll is an "outermarkeT"? :wink:
Our Schedulers on the other hand, often are here as their first job in the aviation arena and have no aviation education except what our corporate executives give them. If our corporate executives are setting the tone with these individuals that we are expendable assets to be used to the maximum permissable by FAR and/or contract regardless of any other concerns, is it any wonder then that those schedulers treat us the way they do?? The best schedulers we have are those with Commercial MEL certificates trying to get into the airplanes, but many of those who don't have such aspirations are d*mn near impossible to work with and generate 90% of our aggravation.
PaleRider: I understand your frustration, but regarding your original post, take it from a guy who's been on reserve for the last 4 years between two carriers: DO NOT start using reciprocity as a scheduling tactic. You will end up on the losing side of that deal EVERY TIME! They WILL remember your name. You WILL get abused as much as possible - every time a crap trip or assignment comes up and they can contractually and legally assign it to you - you WILL get it. Seen it happen too often and been on that side of the coin more than once...
Hey Shamrock... have you ever heard of the "Self Release Program"? Step 1: Be off probation. Step 2. Be certain you can't be used legally. Step 3. Leave.
(editorial credit to GB).DoinTme: You forgot to mention crews stranded at the oustation because the company put us up at a Fleabag hotel and the F/O got bit by a Brown Recluse...
Rumorhasit: Maybe we don't see the big picture all of the time, but don't buy the Koolaid the company feeds you - the truth is probably somewhere in the middle... which you will probably have a unique perspective on... after a few months on reserve!
Ailerongurl - with your moto at the bottom, are you the girl that keeps coming forward with your back to the cockpit door, cutting one loose, then going back to the passengers while that lovely odor works its way into the flight deck?
And the mechanics keep wondering why we have to service the O2 so often...p.s. What the h*ll is an "outermarkeT"? :wink:
Last edited:
Palerider957
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2003
- Posts
- 975
Lear 70:
Self Release Program! ROFLMAO! Yeah, I'm a member of that club!
As for being on a Sched. Sh.it lists---yup, been there. That's why I've had so many go arounds with them and have had to involve CPO's and ALPA.
One our pilots is currently sueing Scheduling--this is golden. This poor bas.tard was on a 4 day trip (he was short-called of course). Halfway through the trip, you gueesed it, Scheduling calls his house TRYING TO ASSIGN HIM A TRIP. His wife answers and she tells them he is no a trip THEY ARGUE WITH HER INSISTING HE ISN'T.
This guy and his wife were already on shaky terms, when he got home she served him with DIVORCE papers. This guy was doing his job and CREW SCHED. put the final nail in his marriage...but that's OK, because he's living the dream.
Self Release Program! ROFLMAO! Yeah, I'm a member of that club!
As for being on a Sched. Sh.it lists---yup, been there. That's why I've had so many go arounds with them and have had to involve CPO's and ALPA.
One our pilots is currently sueing Scheduling--this is golden. This poor bas.tard was on a 4 day trip (he was short-called of course). Halfway through the trip, you gueesed it, Scheduling calls his house TRYING TO ASSIGN HIM A TRIP. His wife answers and she tells them he is no a trip THEY ARGUE WITH HER INSISTING HE ISN'T.
This guy and his wife were already on shaky terms, when he got home she served him with DIVORCE papers. This guy was doing his job and CREW SCHED. put the final nail in his marriage...but that's OK, because he's living the dream.
Mungusaurus
I'm happy:)
- Joined
- May 28, 2003
- Posts
- 129
To OuterMarket
YOU TOOK THE ATP WRITTEN THAT WE DID, B F D. Most of us spent several years and many thousands of dollars getting our certificates and ratings and building time in the real world to get where we are. Then we get some person who decided it might be fun to get a dispatch license went and studied for a few days and took a test my granny could study for and pass and he/ she thinks we are now equal, holy $hit now I have heard everything.
You come fly a nine leg day in the northeast, yup nine legs all to 100 and 1/2 in blowing snow, 70 knot windshears at 2000 feet passengers puking, 16+ hour duty days, broke kit, and the pressures of DISPATCH and SYSTEM CONTROL and the VP of OPs and the CP etc breathing down your necks. Oh and then dont go home at night, wear the same clothes next day and do it all over again. Try the next time you are at your desk to not get up for five hours straight, no coffee or soda or even water, no bathroom break or food all because you are playing catch up and trying to get your airline back on time.
Dont even start to pretend we are on the same level, stay in your cosy little office try and get my release right the first time and dont complain you aren't worth any money, I fly with guys who make less than you and their job is real, not at a computer, two friends of mine are dead right now while their dispatcher is still sitting in his office with his cup of coffee. Thats as real as it gets. Your $13 an hour is for 40 hrs a week right, thats 160 hrs a month = $2080, an FO at $17 an hour for 75 hrs pay credit a month = $1275 is that right ? is it? Heck no! Get your facts straight first.
Hey I feel good now, THanx Mung.
YOU TOOK THE ATP WRITTEN THAT WE DID, B F D. Most of us spent several years and many thousands of dollars getting our certificates and ratings and building time in the real world to get where we are. Then we get some person who decided it might be fun to get a dispatch license went and studied for a few days and took a test my granny could study for and pass and he/ she thinks we are now equal, holy $hit now I have heard everything.
You come fly a nine leg day in the northeast, yup nine legs all to 100 and 1/2 in blowing snow, 70 knot windshears at 2000 feet passengers puking, 16+ hour duty days, broke kit, and the pressures of DISPATCH and SYSTEM CONTROL and the VP of OPs and the CP etc breathing down your necks. Oh and then dont go home at night, wear the same clothes next day and do it all over again. Try the next time you are at your desk to not get up for five hours straight, no coffee or soda or even water, no bathroom break or food all because you are playing catch up and trying to get your airline back on time.
Dont even start to pretend we are on the same level, stay in your cosy little office try and get my release right the first time and dont complain you aren't worth any money, I fly with guys who make less than you and their job is real, not at a computer, two friends of mine are dead right now while their dispatcher is still sitting in his office with his cup of coffee. Thats as real as it gets. Your $13 an hour is for 40 hrs a week right, thats 160 hrs a month = $2080, an FO at $17 an hour for 75 hrs pay credit a month = $1275 is that right ? is it? Heck no! Get your facts straight first.
Hey I feel good now, THanx Mung.
Last edited:
How about this for junior manning. One of our guys is on his way home, non-rev on Chautauqua. Our crew sched. calls Arinc to relay message to Chq flt xxx to relay message to Capt. so & so to call scheduling on arrival. So now Chq pilot has to tell their flt. attend to go to seat 4a and tell Capt (from another company) that he has been junior manned. Then when the plane lands, the gate agent tells Capt so & so that they were instructed to detain his crew bag until the message was given to him. I think I'll start driving to work!
shamrock
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2001
- Posts
- 1,786
asarjfo said:
Believe me, I do use this method every day I'm on reserve.
And just to clear things up, after I was told I couldn't be released I waited a few minutes, called back, was released by someone else, and got on the plane. I don't bother calling anymore. This actually happened during the the summer of '02, when I had been on line for less than 2 months and didn't have a very good idea about how to deal with our scheduling. I have learned A LOT since then!
Sorry I wasn't as clear as I should've been. It was late, and my post was long enough already.
Nice
I think this sucks big time, but I have to give this scheduler some credit! I am astounded that they actually thought to do this. I mean we are talking about people that don't usually think more than 30-40 minutes in the future.
Disclaimer to those scedulers on this board:
If you are on these message boards you are most likely at the top of your game. You are intrested in your proffession and get involved with all aspects of it. Including being on message boards taking heat from disgruntled pilots. Stay and continue to hear from all sides. It makes you better at what you do because you are more familiar with all aspects and consequences of the job you perform.
Cheers
LuvMyJob said:
I think this sucks big time, but I have to give this scheduler some credit! I am astounded that they actually thought to do this. I mean we are talking about people that don't usually think more than 30-40 minutes in the future.
Disclaimer to those scedulers on this board:
If you are on these message boards you are most likely at the top of your game. You are intrested in your proffession and get involved with all aspects of it. Including being on message boards taking heat from disgruntled pilots. Stay and continue to hear from all sides. It makes you better at what you do because you are more familiar with all aspects and consequences of the job you perform.
Cheers
Palerider957
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2003
- Posts
- 975
rumorhasit
$11.25 per seat mile
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2003
- Posts
- 382
Palerider:
Just to let you know I have been in the airline biz for over four years...although not a vet but not a wet behind ears teenage moron I Have loaded 75 bags in the 115 degree sun...have you.... I am much older than you think!!!
Have you ever filled a NASA report...Everyone makes mistakes and some learn from them. Schedulers don't have hundreds of hours with instructors in training environments like pilots. We have 3weeks then out on the phones with sups and management looking over our shoulder. Maybe your approach toward scheduling is a little hostile and people can pick up on that. I have bent over backwards for pilots who are cool and civil with me. Not all schedulers are trying to screw u....
As for the "lifes golden" Your life is not golden...yet. When You get a line (I am assuming you are a reserve) life gets better or no one would do this. I do have my ratings and a partner in a flight school ...I WILL get a regional job...and probably be gripping just like you...
Just to let you know I have been in the airline biz for over four years...although not a vet but not a wet behind ears teenage moron I Have loaded 75 bags in the 115 degree sun...have you.... I am much older than you think!!!
Have you ever filled a NASA report...Everyone makes mistakes and some learn from them. Schedulers don't have hundreds of hours with instructors in training environments like pilots. We have 3weeks then out on the phones with sups and management looking over our shoulder. Maybe your approach toward scheduling is a little hostile and people can pick up on that. I have bent over backwards for pilots who are cool and civil with me. Not all schedulers are trying to screw u....
As for the "lifes golden" Your life is not golden...yet. When You get a line (I am assuming you are a reserve) life gets better or no one would do this. I do have my ratings and a partner in a flight school ...I WILL get a regional job...and probably be gripping just like you...
Palerider957
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2003
- Posts
- 975
Rumorhasit:
As for loading bags in the sun, no I haven't....I have FOUGHT FOR MY LIFE ON AN URBAN BATTLEFIELD..have you?? ...don't give me some sob story about having to break a sweat.
Maybe my tone with scheduling is hostile, granted. But, Sched fired the first shot. When I was new (years ago), my VERY FIRST DAY out of IOE, Scheduling assigned me a trip at 1800 hrs. but tried to get me to come in at 0800 to sit ready reserve--WE DON'T HAVE READY RESERVE AT MY AIRLINE. I almost did it until a Captain overheard me talking it over with another new guy, the Capt. hit the roof and told me to tell sched to F**K off!! I promptly did so. Even if I had been dumb enough to come in, this was not only a violation of the contract, but it would have been an FAR violation---who would have gotten in trouble if the FAA got wind of my duty time??? Scheduling or me??
A couple of months ago, Sched told another Captain (who held a regular nap/stand-up line) that Nap-line holders have to come in early for ready reserve!!! This Captain laughed in the schedulers face and hung up.
I was dumbfounded that the rest of the airline could be so good, but the schedulers were so quick to lie and cheat about the contract. You people (to this day they do this), know who the new people are and prey on them. I have schooled MANY new hires about Sched's bullshi.t tricks...they are as stunned as I was.
Since then I've held a regular, relief, and reserve line. And the best thing is not having to talk to sched. after flying a trip.
I know I sound like an ass.hole to you, but believe it or not I HAVE tried to make peace with some of the people in Sched. They simply won't have it....
As for loading bags in the sun, no I haven't....I have FOUGHT FOR MY LIFE ON AN URBAN BATTLEFIELD..have you?? ...don't give me some sob story about having to break a sweat.
Maybe my tone with scheduling is hostile, granted. But, Sched fired the first shot. When I was new (years ago), my VERY FIRST DAY out of IOE, Scheduling assigned me a trip at 1800 hrs. but tried to get me to come in at 0800 to sit ready reserve--WE DON'T HAVE READY RESERVE AT MY AIRLINE. I almost did it until a Captain overheard me talking it over with another new guy, the Capt. hit the roof and told me to tell sched to F**K off!! I promptly did so. Even if I had been dumb enough to come in, this was not only a violation of the contract, but it would have been an FAR violation---who would have gotten in trouble if the FAA got wind of my duty time??? Scheduling or me??
A couple of months ago, Sched told another Captain (who held a regular nap/stand-up line) that Nap-line holders have to come in early for ready reserve!!! This Captain laughed in the schedulers face and hung up.
I was dumbfounded that the rest of the airline could be so good, but the schedulers were so quick to lie and cheat about the contract. You people (to this day they do this), know who the new people are and prey on them. I have schooled MANY new hires about Sched's bullshi.t tricks...they are as stunned as I was.
Since then I've held a regular, relief, and reserve line. And the best thing is not having to talk to sched. after flying a trip.
I know I sound like an ass.hole to you, but believe it or not I HAVE tried to make peace with some of the people in Sched. They simply won't have it....
Ivan Yankenoff
Large Member
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2003
- Posts
- 60
Why would a crew even follow through with this. If my company asked me to do this I'd tell them to suck a turd out of my a s s. If this happened to me there isn't a chance in hell I would feel even remotly obligated to respond. I don't feel that another airlines flight crew giving you a message qualifies as positive communication. If they wouldn't give me my bag there is always a sheriff standing around who would be most interested in the reason why they have stolen your property.
rumorhasit
$11.25 per seat mile
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2003
- Posts
- 382
Cry me a river palerider....the best thing is knowing there are pilots out there unlike you. I put my time in this company to have the opprotunity to fly with most(90%) of the guys/gals I have had the pleasure to talk to. You are obviously part of the other 10%!!!
You "FOUGHT FOR MY LIFE ON AN URBAN BATTLEFIELD" SO HAVE MANY other people...don't sign the papers or take the money and benifits for your tough life then....
BOO BOO you where assigned a wrong trip...you had the legal right to refuse...get over it!!! did you do the trip? You should have been informed about your contract back then...
Here's an option to think about...
Everytime a Lineholder wants a personal drop it will have to be refused because we dont want to inconvience a reserve. Maybe talk to your fellow pilots about legit sickcalls or whatever so we want have to Inconvience a reserve. Some Pilots abuse the system and we all suffer....
You "FOUGHT FOR MY LIFE ON AN URBAN BATTLEFIELD" SO HAVE MANY other people...don't sign the papers or take the money and benifits for your tough life then....
BOO BOO you where assigned a wrong trip...you had the legal right to refuse...get over it!!! did you do the trip? You should have been informed about your contract back then...
Here's an option to think about...
Everytime a Lineholder wants a personal drop it will have to be refused because we dont want to inconvience a reserve. Maybe talk to your fellow pilots about legit sickcalls or whatever so we want have to Inconvience a reserve. Some Pilots abuse the system and we all suffer....
FmrFreightDog
Py-lote
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
- Posts
- 1,238
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
