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Crew Scheduling
- Thread starter Palerider957
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Lear70
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crewguru said:
Ummm... hate to be the one to tell you, but I'm fairly certain this pilot did that ON PURPOSE! Maybe you knew that already, but this is a common tactic of a senior pilot, something you'd know if you had been a scheduler for more than a year as this happens every year. Now he (or she) gets an extra month and a half of paid vacation over the holidays. Our contract actually has a section that specifically addresses this and works to keep pilots from timing out in November (but if you work hard you can still time out in the middle of Dec which about 16-18 pilots between all 3 domiciles are going to do this year).
As a human being, we are all equal. But as an aviation professional, the above statements are contradictory and you will have a hard time getting any pilot to agree that crew schedulers are our equals in the aviation world. When you have experience commensurate with ours as YOU described above maybe we'll reconsider that stance. And yes, most of us did make $14,000 at one point in our career, usually our first aviation job either flight instructing or towing banners, etc.
Agreed. Crewguru, I'm not trying to bash you here, I'm sure you do a great job at your company (which by your statements I'm sure isn't where I work). But the problem is that we often bend over backwards to help our CS out in a bind, like making it to the airport and block out inside of 40 minutes instead of the contractually required 90 minute REPORT time plus time to get to the a/c, but then two days later when they assign an out-and-back at 1800 on your last day and when you try to drop it they say "Denied due to staffing" and you show up and there are 4 CA's on home reserve and 6 CA's sitting at the airport on ready reserve with great weather, is it any wonder reserves get hostile?
Well said Palerider.
AMEN! Can I get an AMEN from my brothers?
At this company the Association has been preparing a small booklet for new-hires highlighting the reserve sections of the contract along with scheduling tactics so that the new guys and gals know their contractual rights without having to pull it out from 20 different parts of the contract. Hopefully this will stop some of these illegal assignments and force the issue with staffing.
Lear70 said:Ummm... hate to be the one to tell you, but I'm fairly certain this pilot did that ON PURPOSE!
NO SHI.T!! And while he may have been planning this to a certain extint, the fact that we are so short staffed has nothing to do with it. Not at all. Right!
And as for the remark that we aren't equals... Let me just say that attitudes like yours are what brings this industry down. When people who have a "god" complex, treat people like **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** (i.e. scheduling, gate agents, ramp agents, dispatch, mechanics, etc.) everyone loses out. You are not better than anyone else. It takes all of us to run an airline, not just you, god. No one's job is more important than anothers. Get off your high horse and come back to reality.
As for my 14,000/ yr, did I forget to mention that this is currently the most I ever made? And by my comment of going back to school, this does not mean I'm ignorant. I do have a college education, just not in anything that is going to get me anywhere!!
But I make do, and obviously you all do too. We would all like to make more money. That's the American dream, right?
Maybe I'm just getting my panties in a wad, but these generalized statements just piss me off.
If you know your contract and the far's then what's the problem. No one can force a trip on you that is illegal. And if scheduling doesn't know the contract, then maybe you should talk to their manager or supervisor as well as the cpo, and try to figure out why not. Maybe it's as simple as it was never a part of their training program. If this doesn't work then greive.
Enough from me. What ever I say is just going to be used against me, anyway. Have a great day everyone!
I.P. Freley
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I think I'll have to stand up for crewguru on this one.
If any of you have the opportunity to actually sit and watch what happens at a crew scheduling desk, even for an afternoon, I recommend you do it. You'll probably have a new appreciation for what they face.
This is a job you DO NOT WANT... And if you think they have it easy, that they sit there eating bon-bons and laughing maniacally whilst sticking pins in pilot dolls, you're fooling yourself. They actually eat Pringles and throw darts at the pictures of pilots, instead. LOL
Really, though, the perfect kind of person for this job is one who loves to see misery doled out in tiny, unpalatable forkfulls. Imagine overhearing the likes of THIS conversation (not a real one, but representative of the type):
*ring ring* "Hey, Captain So-and-so, I know you have just come off of six days on duty and you're going into four days off, but we need to jr. man you for the last three of those days. (pause) Yes, I understand your daughter's communion is on day three of your days off, but we have no one else to cover it. (pause) Well I understand you're upset, but I can't kiss that particular part of your anatomy over a phone line."
Fortunately for us, most schedulers don't enjoy these scenarios. Seriously, they do the dirty work and it is so totally thankless that I wonder how any of them stick with it for more than a few months. Before you say "hey, they can always get another job" (and someone HAS said that), imagine how much worse YOUR life will be if you constantly have NEW schedulers... You want THAT even less.
They are given the steaming bowl of poo and a spoon. They have to deal with suspicious sick calls, family emergencies, reserve people who've "gone fishin'", that airplane that's busted at an oustation with the crew AND a deadheading crew, weather delays that mess up crew swaps, pilots trying to get a reserve pilot called in to cover their last roundtrip so they can go home early (my personal favorite!), no-shows, time-outs, training events, perhaps even an FA who, after nearly being hit by a car while crossing a street on an overnight, is "too emotionally traumatized" to do anything more than her first leg back to her base (fancy that!) and then needs the rest of the day and the whole next day off going into her scheduled three-day break.
And yes, the preceding is a true story. You would be simply amazed what stories they hear in a small company, and in a big company like EJ f'rinstance, they could probably write a book every month on the creative tales and elaborate fabrications they get to hear (on top of the legitimate stuff which is amazing enough in itself).
You can be p-o'd at scheduling, and trust me, I have been too... But be p-o'd at crew scheduling the ENTITY, not the individual. For the most part, the people who are there aren't personally to blame. In the case of my company the real problem is understaffing on certain positions and the schedulers really aren't given the tools to do their job correctly. And yes, they even make mistakes.
Don't tell me YOU don't make mistakes out on the line... You just don't have the luxury of blaming it on someone else. Except dispatch or maintenance, of course, though those accusations are off-topic for this thread.
Like someone said further up the thread... Don't judge until you've seen the whole circus in action. It's a reality show, it's a comedy, it's a tragedy, it's a soap opera. But it sure ain't boring to watch. Better than half of what's on TV, that's for sure.
Just my $0.02.
If any of you have the opportunity to actually sit and watch what happens at a crew scheduling desk, even for an afternoon, I recommend you do it. You'll probably have a new appreciation for what they face.
This is a job you DO NOT WANT... And if you think they have it easy, that they sit there eating bon-bons and laughing maniacally whilst sticking pins in pilot dolls, you're fooling yourself. They actually eat Pringles and throw darts at the pictures of pilots, instead. LOL
Really, though, the perfect kind of person for this job is one who loves to see misery doled out in tiny, unpalatable forkfulls. Imagine overhearing the likes of THIS conversation (not a real one, but representative of the type):
*ring ring* "Hey, Captain So-and-so, I know you have just come off of six days on duty and you're going into four days off, but we need to jr. man you for the last three of those days. (pause) Yes, I understand your daughter's communion is on day three of your days off, but we have no one else to cover it. (pause) Well I understand you're upset, but I can't kiss that particular part of your anatomy over a phone line."
Fortunately for us, most schedulers don't enjoy these scenarios. Seriously, they do the dirty work and it is so totally thankless that I wonder how any of them stick with it for more than a few months. Before you say "hey, they can always get another job" (and someone HAS said that), imagine how much worse YOUR life will be if you constantly have NEW schedulers... You want THAT even less.
They are given the steaming bowl of poo and a spoon. They have to deal with suspicious sick calls, family emergencies, reserve people who've "gone fishin'", that airplane that's busted at an oustation with the crew AND a deadheading crew, weather delays that mess up crew swaps, pilots trying to get a reserve pilot called in to cover their last roundtrip so they can go home early (my personal favorite!), no-shows, time-outs, training events, perhaps even an FA who, after nearly being hit by a car while crossing a street on an overnight, is "too emotionally traumatized" to do anything more than her first leg back to her base (fancy that!) and then needs the rest of the day and the whole next day off going into her scheduled three-day break.
And yes, the preceding is a true story. You would be simply amazed what stories they hear in a small company, and in a big company like EJ f'rinstance, they could probably write a book every month on the creative tales and elaborate fabrications they get to hear (on top of the legitimate stuff which is amazing enough in itself).
You can be p-o'd at scheduling, and trust me, I have been too... But be p-o'd at crew scheduling the ENTITY, not the individual. For the most part, the people who are there aren't personally to blame. In the case of my company the real problem is understaffing on certain positions and the schedulers really aren't given the tools to do their job correctly. And yes, they even make mistakes.
Don't tell me YOU don't make mistakes out on the line... You just don't have the luxury of blaming it on someone else. Except dispatch or maintenance, of course, though those accusations are off-topic for this thread.
Like someone said further up the thread... Don't judge until you've seen the whole circus in action. It's a reality show, it's a comedy, it's a tragedy, it's a soap opera. But it sure ain't boring to watch. Better than half of what's on TV, that's for sure.
Just my $0.02.
Last edited:
Lear70
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Do we understand what happens when we're short-staffed? Absolutely, and I know it can be very stressful for schedulers, that's why I kept my accusations generalized and haven't lashed out at you specifically even though you bashed me... Like I said before, I don't believe we work at the same company and your company may not be as guilty as others of deliberately assigning contractually-illegal trips.
Not sure what you're implying, but the crewmembers who do this every year are not doing it just to make things more short-staffed. These guys/gals didn't start out at the beginning of the year and say, "Gee, I want to make things even harder on my company so I'm going to fly 90+ hours a month so I can time out in November." It probably went something more to the tune of "I'm senior enough to hold 90+ hour lines and if I do this all year I'll time out in November and be able to spend the entire holidays with my family and get paid for it." Staffing doesn't enter our minds, and it shouldn't, that's not our job, so don't get p*ssed at us when mgmt can't plan for this simple exercise THAT HAPPENS EVERY SINGLE YEAR!
Yes, it does take all of us, never said it didn't. But most crew schedulers, flight followers (dispatchers without the license), baggage handlers, fuelers, and others who are required for any airline to function by your own admission do not have the training or experience that pilots or mechanics do. It's not about being "more intelligent" or "better" and certainly doesn't make me or any other pilot a god, it simply makes us experienced enough to usually know better than the afore-mentioned groups when making a decision that affects the outcome of the flight, including scheduling matters. So you'll just have to excuse us when we often go around or above the scheduler's heads to get something done that is either contractually compliant or just plain makes more sense. Come back to reality? The REALITY is that we have to do exactly that just about every week we come to work.
Wrong again. A probationary pilot may be covered under the contract but has no disciplinary action recourse under that contract, meaning that if a probationary pilot rightfully refuses an assignment and is terminated for it, the Association has very little recourse. Even if a non-probationary pilot refuses an assignment under contract provisions and is disciplined, it may take months or years to recover their lost earnings or their job and get the discipline removed from their record. This is why pressure tactics from CS often work and why, by the time these pilots are line holders, they have formed a permanently-lasting loathing for CS, hence the reason this thread started...
Sure, just GRIEVE it. Then many months to a year or more later, after it's gone through the initial hearing, system board of adjustments, and arbitration, you MAY get your pay OR YOUR JOB BACK for something YOU WERE CONTRACTUALLY ENTITLED TO IN THE FIRST PLACE! Or you may simply get awarded a cease and desist order (which the company then violates again a month later), but while you're waiting for the grievance process to work, that disciplinary action stays on your record and when you go to interview at SWA, JB, AT, ATA, etc, that disciplinary action has to be explained which may not be the end of the interview, but certainly raises a red flag; all because CS WILFULLY AND DELIBERATELY refused to abide by the contract.
Like I said before, you may not have ever been guilty of deliberately assigning a contractually-illegal trip, but MOST crew schedulers (at least at the last two airlines I've worked at as well as the airline the original gentleman who started this thread works for) HAVE; it's the rule, rather than the exception. Hopefully you understand the frustration a little better now from our point of view when we simply want our contract followed instead of intentionally breached!
IP Freely (nice s/n) - we DO deal with this regularly. Our CS turnover rate is about one every 90-120 days. We have about 3 people who have been there a year and they're all trying to get out. I have no illusions that it'd be a good job to have (I wouldn't do it), but it's hard to have respect for someone who doesn't respect you enough to abide by your legal agreement...
crewguru said:
Not sure what you're implying, but the crewmembers who do this every year are not doing it just to make things more short-staffed. These guys/gals didn't start out at the beginning of the year and say, "Gee, I want to make things even harder on my company so I'm going to fly 90+ hours a month so I can time out in November." It probably went something more to the tune of "I'm senior enough to hold 90+ hour lines and if I do this all year I'll time out in November and be able to spend the entire holidays with my family and get paid for it." Staffing doesn't enter our minds, and it shouldn't, that's not our job, so don't get p*ssed at us when mgmt can't plan for this simple exercise THAT HAPPENS EVERY SINGLE YEAR!
Yes, it does take all of us, never said it didn't. But most crew schedulers, flight followers (dispatchers without the license), baggage handlers, fuelers, and others who are required for any airline to function by your own admission do not have the training or experience that pilots or mechanics do. It's not about being "more intelligent" or "better" and certainly doesn't make me or any other pilot a god, it simply makes us experienced enough to usually know better than the afore-mentioned groups when making a decision that affects the outcome of the flight, including scheduling matters. So you'll just have to excuse us when we often go around or above the scheduler's heads to get something done that is either contractually compliant or just plain makes more sense. Come back to reality? The REALITY is that we have to do exactly that just about every week we come to work.
Wrong again. A probationary pilot may be covered under the contract but has no disciplinary action recourse under that contract, meaning that if a probationary pilot rightfully refuses an assignment and is terminated for it, the Association has very little recourse. Even if a non-probationary pilot refuses an assignment under contract provisions and is disciplined, it may take months or years to recover their lost earnings or their job and get the discipline removed from their record. This is why pressure tactics from CS often work and why, by the time these pilots are line holders, they have formed a permanently-lasting loathing for CS, hence the reason this thread started...
Sure, just GRIEVE it. Then many months to a year or more later, after it's gone through the initial hearing, system board of adjustments, and arbitration, you MAY get your pay OR YOUR JOB BACK for something YOU WERE CONTRACTUALLY ENTITLED TO IN THE FIRST PLACE! Or you may simply get awarded a cease and desist order (which the company then violates again a month later), but while you're waiting for the grievance process to work, that disciplinary action stays on your record and when you go to interview at SWA, JB, AT, ATA, etc, that disciplinary action has to be explained which may not be the end of the interview, but certainly raises a red flag; all because CS WILFULLY AND DELIBERATELY refused to abide by the contract.
Like I said before, you may not have ever been guilty of deliberately assigning a contractually-illegal trip, but MOST crew schedulers (at least at the last two airlines I've worked at as well as the airline the original gentleman who started this thread works for) HAVE; it's the rule, rather than the exception. Hopefully you understand the frustration a little better now from our point of view when we simply want our contract followed instead of intentionally breached!
IP Freely (nice s/n
) - we DO deal with this regularly. Our CS turnover rate is about one every 90-120 days. We have about 3 people who have been there a year and they're all trying to get out. I have no illusions that it'd be a good job to have (I wouldn't do it), but it's hard to have respect for someone who doesn't respect you enough to abide by your legal agreement...
I.P. Freley
I like people food
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I don't think I have ever honestly been assigned an ILLEGAL trip INTENTIONALLY... And have never had to do one that I pointed out was either illegal or against the contract (except for, possibly, JM'd below 10 days/mo, which I "allowed" for the $$$). At least I don't think I have.
As for whether or not I have been assigned something that is legally or contractually, ummm, "interesting" is another matter LOL!!!
As for whether or not I have been assigned something that is legally or contractually, ummm, "interesting" is another matter LOL!!!
Ivan Yankenoff
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You know this whole mess could be cured if the airlines really employed enough pilots and F/A's to run without pissing off everyone. I have never picked up open time in my carreer and have only flown a draft once. That time was right after they opened the skies after 9-11 and they had a legitimate reason not to be staffed correctly. Other than that I think the airlines have been around long enough to know that aircraft break, blizzards happen, airports shutdown and crewmembers do get sick and injured. It's not the crewmembers fault that the airline chooses not to employ enough crewmembers to ease schedulers problems, but you sure as hell aren't going to make it better by pissing on everyone you talk to. I fly my line every month, no more, no less period.
lear, you obviously aren't getting my point, so we'll leave it all there. I may have gotten a little aggrevated earlier, and I'm sorry. I am just sick of hearing how scheduling is the devil. We're not all bad. I follow the contract and the regs and try to accomadate everyone I can. But some things are out of our control. I'm sorry if every scheduler you've met has screwed you over. Like IP said, here we try to follow the contract as best we can. Just try not to post all-inclusive statements about us next time. And when you say you are better equiped to make decisions about the flight, I find that very hard to believe. You don't see the big picture out there. All you see is your release, crew, passengers, plane, etc. I undrestand that if you had our resources in ops, you could help make an educated decision about things. But you don't have a plot, you don't know the spares, you can't see what mainx needs home, you don't know of the rsv's, etc. Hope I haven't offended any one here. Just sticking my nose in. I won't deny some cs are di.cks, but I just want everyone to recognize that all of us aren't.
Lear70
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"Could they be... I don't know... SAAATAN?!" Sorry, I miss Church Lady.
We know you're not all evil. H*ll, we have some great schedulers - problem is they don't stick around very long, only the problem children do. Still trying to figure out why that is. In any case, I apologize if I made some generalizations that you took personally; I certainly wasn't trying to point fingers at you in particular...
Granted, there's a lot of the operation I don't see as a line pilot, although I keep track of reserve coverage MUCH better than most people think... At this company the schedulers don't track spares and MX needs (MX control and dispatch do that then simply inform CS when and where they need pilots). Frustration comes when as a pilot you KNOW what the better solution is and they won't consider it.
For example: a crew has a MX problem at an outstation - the aircraft is broken HARD with parts required. The Captain is in touch with MX Control and is told that a mechanic and parts will be flown in on the next aircraft (4 hours) and it will take 5 hours to fix (9 hours total). The CA then calls CS and relays and asks for hotel arrangements. The CA is told just to wait at the airport until parts arrive "because it might be sooner". CA calls C.P. - it's a weekend and he's not home. The CA calls the Duty Daddy (on-duty Sup) - who doesn't return the phone call. The CA (in this particular case ME), calls MX control back and verifies 9 hours, then CS who refuses the hotel again, then CA tells CS where they can kindly shove it, leaves the airport for the crew hotel and puts the crew into rest. 9 hours later, A/C fixed and crew fresh out of rest = legal to recover the aircraft immediately WITH REVENUE PAX ON BOARD rather than realizing the crew is now timed out from not being in rest while waiting at the airport for half a day and having to deal with fatigue issues or Part 91 and stranding a bunch of passengers.
There are lots of examples that work both ways at different airlines; the long and short of it is, some airlines are better at this than others. Your airline probably has a much better system than we do and this wouldn't ever happen. Here it does... regularly.
Sorry, I miss Church Lady. We know you're not all evil. H*ll, we have some great schedulers - problem is they don't stick around very long, only the problem children do. Still trying to figure out why that is. In any case, I apologize if I made some generalizations that you took personally; I certainly wasn't trying to point fingers at you in particular...
Granted, there's a lot of the operation I don't see as a line pilot, although I keep track of reserve coverage MUCH better than most people think...
At this company the schedulers don't track spares and MX needs (MX control and dispatch do that then simply inform CS when and where they need pilots). Frustration comes when as a pilot you KNOW what the better solution is and they won't consider it.For example: a crew has a MX problem at an outstation - the aircraft is broken HARD with parts required. The Captain is in touch with MX Control and is told that a mechanic and parts will be flown in on the next aircraft (4 hours) and it will take 5 hours to fix (9 hours total). The CA then calls CS and relays and asks for hotel arrangements. The CA is told just to wait at the airport until parts arrive "because it might be sooner". CA calls C.P. - it's a weekend and he's not home. The CA calls the Duty Daddy (on-duty Sup) - who doesn't return the phone call. The CA (in this particular case ME), calls MX control back and verifies 9 hours, then CS who refuses the hotel again, then CA tells CS where they can kindly shove it, leaves the airport for the crew hotel and puts the crew into rest. 9 hours later, A/C fixed and crew fresh out of rest = legal to recover the aircraft immediately WITH REVENUE PAX ON BOARD rather than realizing the crew is now timed out from not being in rest while waiting at the airport for half a day and having to deal with fatigue issues or Part 91 and stranding a bunch of passengers.
There are lots of examples that work both ways at different airlines; the long and short of it is, some airlines are better at this than others. Your airline probably has a much better system than we do and this wouldn't ever happen. Here it does... regularly.
void
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j41driver wrote:
Lear70 wrote:
§ 121.465 Aircraft dispatcher duty time limitations: Domestic and flag operations.
(a) Each certificate holder conducting domestic or flag operations shall establish the daily duty period for a dispatcher so that it begins at a time that allows him or her to become thoroughly familiar with existing and anticipated weather conditions along the route before he or she dispatches any airplane. He or she shall remain on duty until each airplane dispatched by him or her has completed its flight, or has gone beyond his or her jurisdiction, or until he or she is relieved by another qualified dispatcher.
(b) Except in cases where circumstances or emergency conditions beyond the control of the certificate holder require otherwise --
(1) No certificate holder conducting domestic or flag operations may schedule a dispatcher for more than 10 consecutive hours of duty;
(2) If a dispatcher is scheduled for more than 10 hours of duty in 24 consecutive hours, the certificate holder shall provide him or her a rest period of at least eight hours at or before the end of 10 hours of duty.
(3) Each dispatcher must be relieved of all duty with the certificate holder for at least 24 consecutive hours during any seven consecutive days or the equivalent thereof within any calendar month.
(c) Notwithstanding paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section, a certificate holder conducting flag operations may, if authorized by the Administrator, schedule an aircraft dispatcher at a duty station outside of the 48 contiguous States and the District of Columbia, for more than 10 consecutive hours of duty in a 24-hour period if that aircraft dispatcher is relieved of all duty with the certificate holder for at least eight hours during each 24-hour period.
What this means is that a Dispatcher can only be SCHEDULED up to 10 hours. If something happens such as late flights or if another dispatcher calls off sick, they can work longer than that. I have heard of situations of up to 16-20 hours. A dispatcher needs a minimum of 8 hours of rest after a shift like that. It then goes on to state is paragraph 3 that a dispatcher can work up to 6 days a week, or 7 days a week for 26 days straight as long as they get 4 - 5 days rest at the end of the month.
Crew Schedulers don't have any restrictions under the FAR's.
Lear70 wrote:
§ 121.465 Aircraft dispatcher duty time limitations: Domestic and flag operations.
(a) Each certificate holder conducting domestic or flag operations shall establish the daily duty period for a dispatcher so that it begins at a time that allows him or her to become thoroughly familiar with existing and anticipated weather conditions along the route before he or she dispatches any airplane. He or she shall remain on duty until each airplane dispatched by him or her has completed its flight, or has gone beyond his or her jurisdiction, or until he or she is relieved by another qualified dispatcher.
(b) Except in cases where circumstances or emergency conditions beyond the control of the certificate holder require otherwise --
(1) No certificate holder conducting domestic or flag operations may schedule a dispatcher for more than 10 consecutive hours of duty;
(2) If a dispatcher is scheduled for more than 10 hours of duty in 24 consecutive hours, the certificate holder shall provide him or her a rest period of at least eight hours at or before the end of 10 hours of duty.
(3) Each dispatcher must be relieved of all duty with the certificate holder for at least 24 consecutive hours during any seven consecutive days or the equivalent thereof within any calendar month.
(c) Notwithstanding paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section, a certificate holder conducting flag operations may, if authorized by the Administrator, schedule an aircraft dispatcher at a duty station outside of the 48 contiguous States and the District of Columbia, for more than 10 consecutive hours of duty in a 24-hour period if that aircraft dispatcher is relieved of all duty with the certificate holder for at least eight hours during each 24-hour period.
What this means is that a Dispatcher can only be SCHEDULED up to 10 hours. If something happens such as late flights or if another dispatcher calls off sick, they can work longer than that. I have heard of situations of up to 16-20 hours. A dispatcher needs a minimum of 8 hours of rest after a shift like that. It then goes on to state is paragraph 3 that a dispatcher can work up to 6 days a week, or 7 days a week for 26 days straight as long as they get 4 - 5 days rest at the end of the month.
Crew Schedulers don't have any restrictions under the FAR's.
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