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Cranky Flier: SWA continues Cutting ATL, DL must be thrilled

GhettoBeechjet

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Fred,
Your right we did. But just like the AAI group the SWAPA pilots choice was between the deal SWA put on table and an alternative that would have been career altering for every SWAPA pilot. My life hasn't gotten better because of this deal. As a matter of fact I'm moving backwards. The difference is I don't blame the AAI pilots or ALPA. I actually hope we all come out of this OK.
 
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ATLplt

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Fred,
Your right we did. But just like the AAI group the SWAPA pilots choice was between the deal SWA put on table and an alternative that would have been career altering for every SWAPA pilot. My life hasn't gotten better because of this deal but I don't blame the AAI pilots or ALPA.

Not quite just like the AAI pilots. Our deal was for our jobs or a roll of the dice...suppose you could call that career altering. I would have rather taken my roll in arby, but 84 percent wanted the guaranteed job.
 

Britpilot

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The good news for the AAI pilots is that the integration will get done per the agreements. Maybe Fletch et all will feel better about it when the first pilot furloughed in 2015 is a RSW guy and they are still working.

Don't know about that.
At the present training rate there will be 800-1000 pilots left on the AAI side on 12/14. With the 717 fleet gone to DAL and a reduced 737 fleet at AAI, I can only speculate as to the fate of the remaining pilots on the AAI side.
Will SWA continue to pay pilots without an airplane to fly or a training date? $64,000 question.
 

GhettoBeechjet

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Not quite just like the AAI pilots. Our deal was for our jobs or a roll of the dice...suppose you could call that career altering. I would have rather taken my roll in arby, but 84 percent wanted the guaranteed job.


Well my choices were take the deal or an arbitrated list that would have most likely resulted in me commuting to the West Coast as an F/O for 20 years. Granted thats better than as losing your job but really painful.
 

GhettoBeechjet

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Don't know about that.
At the present training rate there will be 800-1000 pilots left on the AAI side on 12/14. With the 717 fleet gone to DAL and a reduced 737 fleet at AAI, I can only speculate as to the fate of the remaining pilots on the AAI side.
Will SWA continue to pay pilots without an airplane to fly or a training date? $64,000 question.

I think the remaining AAI pilots in the bottom 1100 of the COMBINED list will be furloughed. The ones above that will be payed SWA rates and trained as RSW guys in the bottom 1100 are furloughed.
 

SWA Bubba

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Don't know about that.
At the present training rate there will be 800-1000 pilots left on the AAI side on 12/14. With the 717 fleet gone to DAL and a reduced 737 fleet at AAI, I can only speculate as to the fate of the remaining pilots on the AAI side.
Will SWA continue to pay pilots without an airplane to fly or a training date? $64,000 question.

The key in your statement is "at the present rate." So far, something like 200 AirTran pilots have transitioned. That leaves something like 1550 to go over the next two years. That sound about right, Lear? I just got back from training, and they swore they could transition 900 per year if they had to. Maybe they're waiting until the last minute, to save money, but they say that they can do everybody by the end of 2014, as advertised.

And despite as pessimistic as Ghettobeechjet always is about everything, I don't think anybody's going to your furloughed.

Bubba
 

captb767

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They took pilots out of seniority. For instance, that F/E you mentioned was probably junior to a lot who wanted to go. It was based on who was current on the airplanes they took. Lot more to it than that I'm sure, but it's been awhile since I heard the whole story.

Not quite...Pan Am ALPA decided who was going to Delta...Alot of back room stuff happened on the Pan Am side...including the "dirty 30" agreement.
 

Lear70

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Well my choices were take the deal or an arbitrated list that would have most likely resulted in me commuting to the West Coast as an F/O for 20 years. Granted thats better than as losing your job but really painful.
And our choices were take the deal WITH a West Coast commute and no upgrade for 20 years, or hit the street and gamble on getting your job back in 2-3 years after the court battles.

I understand that you don't like your choices you had, but I humbly submit our choices were (and remain) worse than OSW pilots. Just food for thought.

I think the remaining AAI pilots in the bottom 1100 of the COMBINED list will be furloughed. The ones above that will be payed SWA rates and trained as RSW guys in the bottom 1100 are furloughed.
There's nothing that supports that math.

At current rates of attrition plus aircraft scheduled on-property on 1/1/15, the company will only be over-staffed by 300-400 people. The Attrition in 2015 takes care of at least half that, and the only way I see that changing is IF there is a MASS exodus of Classics in 2015 that isn't offset by attrition.

We still don't have the draw-down for the Classics yet, I don't know that SWA has even determined the plan for that, since it's almost 3 years away. If they have, they haven't shared it.

The key in your statement is "at the present rate." So far, something like 200 AirTran pilots have transitioned. That leaves something like 1550 to go over the next two years. That sound about right, Lear?
A little less than that still to go with the class scheduled for January that has already bid over but not yet started, but yes, you're in the ball park.

I just got back from training, and they swore they could transition 900 per year if they had to. Maybe they're waiting until the last minute, to save money, but they say that they can do everybody by the end of 2014, as advertised.
That's EXACTLY what they're telling us they're planning on doing, that even with 1/3 of AAI on reserve, it's still cheaper than absorbing the excess into the SWA ranks, diluting your lines, and paying more reserves to sit around... at SWA rates.

They're going to leave AAI overstaffed until the very end. Fewer people drawing SWA pay rates until 1/1/15, at which point there will be a mad dash to get everyone across as fast as possible and certainly by the time the last 717 goes away.

And despite as pessimistic as Ghettobeechjet always is about everything, I don't think anybody's going to your furloughed.
Agreed.
 

Citrusflyer

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...I just got back from training, and they swore they could transition 900 per year if they had to. Maybe they're waiting until the last minute, to save money, but they say that they can do everybody by the end of 2014, as advertised.....

Bubba

So, it's kinda like President Barry Hussein. "The last few years haven't panned out, but I SWEAR the next 4 will be different! I know I haven't done it before, but I can now!" Did the empty chair move to the Dallas training department?
 

GhettoBeechjet

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So, it's kinda like President Barry Hussein. "The last few years haven't panned out, but I SWEAR the next 4 will be different! I know I haven't done it before, but I can now!" Did the empty chair move to the Dallas training department?


In 2008 they were training 3 classes of 24 per month with fewer sims than they have now. They can train at that rate if they need to and plan for it.
 
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GhettoBeechjet

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Lear

1. The AAI pilots choices were in fact worse than the OSW pilots. My point is neither group was given a good other option.

2. The math doesn't support that a majority of AAI pilots will be commuting to the West Coast. Less than 1/3 will. I can back that up with facts but the explanation is lengthy

3. According to my source there will be only 100 classics left at the end of 2015 which is 68 less than we have now. We are losing 88 717s between now and then while getting 86 deliveries from Boeing for a loss of an additional 2 airframes for a total loss of 70 airframes. 70 airframes equates to 700 too many pilots plus the 300-400 you quote based on a flat fleet means 1000-1100 too many pilots. I don't believe that they will carry that many extra pilots.

4. I own being a pessimist at this point. Show me some evidence of anything good going on at SWA right now and I'll tone it down. I just don't see how or where it starts to get better. It looks to me like we now need to get into the Carribean and Latin America in a big way to avoid a contraction. The problem is we will have to beat Spirt, DL, and a restructed AA for every inch of it. I really appreciate my job and am greatful for it. Just like all of most of us AAI and OSW alike I want and need the combined company to suceed. That being said I think there is a real risk we are becoming Sears.
 
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scoreboardII

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Not Sears, Pan Am.

Rumor today is training center is spooling for 24every two weeks starting Jan, that's 550ish by end of 2013, how many does that leave?
 

Britpilot

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Not Sears, Pan Am.

Rumor today is training center is spooling for 24every two weeks starting Jan, that's 550ish by end of 2013, how many does that leave?

About a thousand.
However, we don't show 48 a month for the first 7 months of 2013, so that number will be higher.
 

Citrusflyer

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Not Sears, Pan Am.

Rumor today is training center is spooling for 24every two weeks starting Jan, that's 550ish by end of 2013, how many does that leave?

If that's the rumor then it's false. The bids have gone out for Jan., only 27 for the month. Nothing on the slate for Feb, or later, as of yet. The TP, as of now, has 166 total going over by the end of June. If they were gearing up we'd be seeing bid notices - there are none.

Plus, there are no 737 to 717 'transitions'. At this point they need to happen if they're going to flow everyone over without either completely decimating a fleet on the AT side - or they'll need to announce waiving that requirement. But neither is happening on that front either.

Of course, they could decide the 737 guys don't need new hire training and fast track them. Nah - wont happen. Why move fast in this industry when you can rely on name ID only, right? I'm sure the new Caribbean and S. American markets will wait until they get everything in one sock.
 

Lear70

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Lear

1. The AAI pilots choices were in fact worse than the OSW pilots. My point is neither group was given a good other option.
True, from each pilot group's independent point of view.

2. The math doesn't support that a majority of AAI pilots will be commuting to the West Coast. Less than 1/3 will. I can back that up with facts but the explanation is lengthy
I'm thinking primarily the pre-merger F/O's who, by and large, got stapled. There are 800 or so of us mixed in with about 300 of your pre-merger group then about 250 or so new-hires at the bottom. That's 1,350 pilots, give or take.

How many F/O's are there in PHX, OAK, DEN, and LAS? All of which are a good 5+ hr commute from most East Coast cities (if not worse with OAK). I submit that only 15-20% of those F/O's in those bases want to be there versus holding a line in a base East of the Rockies, therefore the vast majority of our F/O's will be commuting West for a long time to come. It is what it is.

3. According to my source there will be only 100 classics left at the end of 2015 which is 68 less than we have now.
That's a draw-down of nearly 6 Classics per month, which doesn't fit

a.) The fleet plan unless SWA plans to DRAMATICALLY cut service at many airports it currently serves.

b.) The stated goals of SWA management which is to maintain their current route structure without killing off service.

c.) The history of SWA airlines which is not to reduce the size of the airline and furlough people.

It just doesn't add up. Not sure who your "source" is, but it doesn't make any logical sense nor does it follow what is publicly-known nor what has been privately discussed of the SWA 5 year fleet and marketing plan.

We are losing 88 717s between now and then while getting 86 deliveries from Boeing for a loss of an additional 2 airframes for a total loss of 70 airframes. 70 airframes equates to 700 too many pilots plus the 300-400 you quote based on a flat fleet means 1000-1100 too many pilots. I don't believe that they will carry that many extra pilots.
Again, you are using a number that is unverified (68 Classic retirements), not to mention you're not figuring in attrition which is known to be approximately 400 give or take by the end of 2015 and continuing to nearly 650 by the end of 2016.

4. I own being a pessimist at this point. Show me some evidence of anything good going on at SWA right now and I'll tone it down. I just don't see how or where it starts to get better.
I understand your position, but I also don't see any "evidence" on your side to support that argument, only rumor. Do I think the Classics will start to go away in 2015? Probably, especially towards the end of the year, but I don't think we'll see nearly 6 aircraft leave the fleet without replacement aircraft for at least half that. Could be wrong, it's happened before.

It looks to me like we now need to get into the Carribean and Latin America in a big way to avoid a contraction. The problem is we will have to beat Spirt, DL, and a restructed AA for every inch of it. I really appreciate my job and am greatful for it. Just like all of most of us AAI and OSW alike I want and need the combined company to suceed. That being said I think there is a real risk we are becoming Sears.
LOL - Sears? I was thinking more like Costco. ;)

In all seriousness, I agree with you about the Caribbean and LA, and I believe that's coming in a big way come 2015. We shall see...

Rumor today is training center is spooling for 24every two weeks starting Jan, that's 550ish by end of 2013, how many does that leave?
That pace doesn't pick up until May according to the numbers put out last month by Russ M. We have a spreadsheet detailing classes for each month through June. We've also been told to expect that pace (48 a month) to continue through the rest of the year after May due to the 717's leaving property.

That should leave us around 1,000 ACTIVE pilots (those not on Med or Mil leave) to transition in 2014.

Not to mention about 300 of those will have to stay into 2015 to man the 717's before they go to DL in 2015 as-scheduled, so closer to around 700 or so active pilots to get through in 2014. It's do-able, but will require running almost 100 pilots a month for nearly half the year through transition training once you take out the holiday months and such.
 
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humveedriver

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AirTran added Bermuda last May and Cabo June of this year. Really hope to see SWA add at least two new destinations internationally during the transition. That would maintain pace with one new international destination a year, since the acquisition was announced. I am pulling for St Croix and Guadalajara.
 

canyonblue

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Lear70

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Take out the holiday months? :laugh:

I highly doubt they're going to train over Thanksgiving and Christmas, not for full initial indoc and sims at any rate.

Case in point, they skipped Nov and Dec training cycles and started back up for Jan.

We'll see, but I don't count on those months as full transition classes starting months.
 

canyonblue

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Case in point, they skipped Nov and Dec training cycles and started back up for Jan.

Yes, that was this year. They have, and will, train 12 months a year. Just make sure you plan your training month well. Many have wished they didn't have recurrent either in the summer or in December.
 
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