Cranky Flier: SWA continues Cutting ATL, DL must be thrilled

[Full of LUV]

No Red, it's the business model that needs work. Your management decided initially to not charge for bags, and to keep fees to a minimum. (You do have some, and do charge for multiple bags, maybe over two per pax). You then created these incredibly dumb People's Court type commercials that stated you would "Never do that" when it came to charging for bags (even though AT still does and you don't pay those guys who fly the same type planes the same money you make......). Now everyone else charges for bags, and it seems to have been accepted by most pax, which is why that policy has survived. What are you left with? Fewer fuel hedges, an old IT department that can't handle INTL flights, a dead ETOPS program to Hawaii for now, aging pilots and FAs that make more due to more longevity on average, and not the lowest fares anymore. You are getting beaten in ATL, PHL, SEA, and SLC (recent SWA route CNX support that), and you've treated the newest 1/3 of your pilot group (AT pilots) poorly, which won't soon be forgotten. Sounds like the LUV is turning into a legacy, with all of the associated problems, including a revenue one it sounds like. All of you will have to get that straightened out, including treating your new brothers better. That was just not smart treating them poorly.

But, you are correct that it ISN'T a slam dunk against DL. Thanks for that sweet 717 deal you gave DL. You know the one, that pays over $100 million to clean up the planes, paint them, install wifi, and do large MX checks, and then at the end of the "sub-lease" allow the option to buy them at "current market price" (in 10 years). That was a screaming deal, and I heard the guy over there who made the deal "got talked to." You guys have a lot if work to do to slam dunk anything right now. Start by treating your AT pilots better. And Red, stop being so cocky.



Bye Bye---General Lee

There's a fine line between being proud of one's airline and being cocky.... I guess that line is clearer for some.... oh the irony.

 

[Dan Roman]

You know guys, you really can't judge anyone very accurately by reading a few posts on a web board. How many times have you met someone in person that comes off a lot different than how they sound online.
I'm sure the SWA guys who come across as cocky on here would not seem so in person. Hell, I bet the General could even enjoy a round of beers with most of them, provided it wasn't in LUB and he didn't reveal his online identity!

 

[General Lee]

There's a fine line between being proud of one's airline and being cocky.... I guess that line is clearer for some.... oh the irony.

Maybe Redflyer could use facts instead of throwing around terms like "slam dunk"? That was the attitude of most Corndogs on this website before entering ATL and then treating their own new brothers poorly. We all mostly take pride in our work place. I hope your airline does well, but the attitudes toward your own new pilots and the attitudes toward the "other" legacies have got to change. We are all in the same boat now. Hopefully we all climb together. But, some have more work than others.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

You know guys, you really can't judge anyone very accurately by reading a few posts on a web board. How many times have you met someone in person that comes off a lot different than how they sound online.
I'm sure the SWA guys who come across as cocky on here would not seem so in person. Hell, I bet the General could even enjoy a round of beers with most of them, provided it wasn't in LUB and he didn't reveal his online identity!

I actually have Dan, and I have a few Corndog friends too believe it or not. When they aren't totally exhausted from their 20 leg 4 day trips, we go out and enjoy a nice meal etc. I've met some great SWA pilots on layovers, and most are very nice. But, I have run into a few that still think poorly of the AT pilots, and I never felt or stated things the same way about incoming NWA pilots. I didn't. The merger wasn't my call, and an arbitrator was going to figure out how to fairly put it all together. And NO, I have never seen a DL crew refuse to take a SWA crew in a hotel van. And one more thing, I won't ever be within 100 NMs of LBB, unless I am flying right over it at FL370.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

The best thing for Southwest for buying Airtran. SW found out that they are stuck in 1980s. Might as well buy a trans am.

From their computer systems, the way they operate aircraft,

Time to get with the times !

Don't forget the cheesy 1980's "Members-Only" style leather jackets.

 

[Dan Roman]

I actually have Dan, and I have a few Corndog friends too believe it or not. When they aren't totally exhausted from their 20 leg 4 day trips, we go out and enjoy a nice meal etc. I've met some great SWA pilots on layovers, and most are very nice. But, I have run into a few that still think poorly of the AT pilots, and I never felt or stated things the same way about incoming NWA pilots. I didn't. The merger wasn't my call, and an arbitrator was going to figure out how to fairly put it all together. And NO, I have never seen a DL CDs refuse to take a SWA crew in a hotel van. And one more thing, I won't ever be within 100 NMs of LBB, unless I am flying right over it at FL370.


Bye Bye---General Lee

You are right about the SWA attitude on here towards the AirTran pilots. As you know I called them out on it too and got labeled a SWA "hater" for it. DAL/NWA ALPA has been the gold standard of how to conduct a merger (ironically enough, 30 years age the gold standard was Allegheny/Mohawk!)
SWA did not take the high road by any means and they will probably be paying for it for a long time. The good will they could have had from a better executed merger is lost forever. Sure they got some airplanes and gates, but had AirTran been brought in like DAL/NWA they would have realized so much more.
I think their little "warrior spirit" attitude can really backfire on them and this is one of those times.
That said, it is still a good airline and they are good at their niche, but it will be interesting to see if they have gone as far as they can go with the old business model and going forward to a different business model maybe difficult.

 

[scoreboardII]

Dan, you need to take step back from the "failed or bad merger, lost goodwill" claim. The ramblings of a few internet Oz's (me and Lear included) mean nothing until the fat lady sings.

She's still getting makeup applied on the AK tails.

DL would have done it better and seen so much more? Then why don't they take the 717 pilots? Oh, thats right....

 

[Dan Roman]

Score, you can't treat the AirTran folks the way you did without long term ramifications. That's just a simple fact. Now as you say, how bad and how much is anyone's guess.
As for your second comment...really? You don't understand that simply buying aircraft is not a merger? If they bought all the 717 flying, gates etc. than that's a different story. If every time an airline sold some aircraft and the crews thought they should go with them there would be chaos in the industry. We bought some DAL 767's, I can't imagine DAL pilots think they should go with them.
And before you say it, yes the way DAL handled the PanAm deal was worse than you guys, we all live in glass houses.

 

[scoreboardII]

Dan, you say YOU, like I or any other SWA pilot had one bit of say on how any of this transpired.

Second, please post one shred of evidence any AT guy who is on the SWA side has been treated less than Top Shelf.

Those on the AT side? Well, you'll just have to ask the AT guys why they voted for that.

Oh, thats right, because not one pilot had a shred of say how GK was going to ******************** all of us...

You want to bitch, then blame GK, nobody else.

I understand how plane purchases work, so why didn't DL if they are so great take the pilots, seems you need someone to fly them who are already trained. Wouldn't that be better for the bottom line?

Have a good day Dan.

 

[Full of LUV]

Score, you can't treat the AirTran folks the way you did without long term ramifications. That's just a simple fact. Now as you say, how bad and how much is anyone's guess.
As for your second comment...really? You don't understand that simply buying aircraft is not a merger? If they bought all the 717 flying, gates etc. than that's a different story. If every time an airline sold some aircraft and the crews thought they should go with them there would be chaos in the industry. We bought some DAL 767's, I can't imagine DAL pilots think they should go with them.
And before you say it, yes the way DAL handled the PanAm deal was worse than you guys, we all live in glass houses.

Dan,
Serious question.... in a nutshell, what did DAL do to PAN AM? I once met a professional engineer with PAN AM who was taken on by DAL and allowed to become a pilot and now a captain. His case sounded like a generous deal, but I am admittingly too young to know how the PAN AM pilots were wronged.

 

[fletch717]

Dan, you say YOU, like I or any other SWA pilot had one bit of say on how any of this transpired.

Second, please post one shred of evidence any AT guy who is on the SWA side has been treated less than Top Shelf.

Those on the AT side? Well, you'll just have to ask the AT guys why they voted for that.

Oh, thats right, because not one pilot had a shred of say how GK was going to ******************** all of us...

You want to bitch, then blame GK, nobody else.

I understand how plane purchases work, so why didn't DL if they are so great take the pilots, seems you need someone to fly them who are already trained. Wouldn't that be better for the bottom line?

Have a good day Dan.

The pilots of SWA could have stood up and said "don't screw these guys" Instead you voted for the most militant SWAPA pres. Who then got Gary to do the dirty work. That's exactly the way this went down. So yes I blame every SWA pilot for this. But like I have said before Pain is comming and it won't be pretty. Gary Has got to get costs in line, I won't stand with SWAPA.....ever.

 

[redflyer65]

Maybe Redflyer could use facts instead of throwing around terms like "slam dunk"? That was the attitude of most Corndogs on this website before entering ATL and then treating their own new brothers poorly. We all mostly take pride in our work place. I hope your airline does well, but the attitudes toward your own new pilots and the attitudes toward the "other" legacies have got to change. We are all in the same boat now. Hopefully we all climb together. But, some have more work than others.



Bye Bye---General Lee

General,

I think it might be time for you to take an extra dose of Xanax and chill out. What exactly did I state that WASN'T fact? Let's see....

1- Main point, SW has a completely different model than both AAI & DL.

2- SW goes direct to alot of distinations, bypassing Atlanta.

3- Delta is a great airline that will do well in the future.

4- SW is pretty good at route vs revenue. (Quarterly profits)

Then you start into some rant about the AAI pilots. Why is that? Because you have nothing else? Does anyone rip on you because some of the NWA pilots got hosed? I won't because it's really none of my business. You guys handled it a certain way, and it's done and over. Why do you feel like you need to say anything about our merger? Just because you were hoping for arbitration and a blood bath? You know that's true, and you got robbed out of it. Sorry.

Now tell me EXACTLY what I said that was cocky?

Maybe it's time for you to run on over the Regional Forum so you can smack them down a little and feel like a big man on campus. Talk about treating other pilots like garbage. The hate between mainline and regional pilots is stunning. And you personally foster that relationship. I'm glad that makes you feel important though. Very idiotic, similiar to the Rihanna post.

RF

Suprised you left out your LBB comments. You know they go hand in hand with your AAI schtick. You've become a joke unfortunately (and I mean that).

 

[redflyer65]

Deleted.

 

[redflyer65]

The pilots of SWA could have stood up and said "don't screw these guys" Instead you voted for the most militant SWAPA pres. Who then got Gary to do the dirty work. That's exactly the way this went down. So yes I blame every SWA pilot for this. But like I have said before Pain is comming and it won't be pretty. Gary Has got to get costs in line, I won't stand with SWAPA.....ever.

You seriously think that SC was in charge of anything with regard to this integration? Gary Kelly ran the show and both sides were just along for the ride. If you think otherwise, then your living in a fantasy land.

Your MEC decided to stand up and said NO. And they got their head chopped off for doing so. Anyone else want to stand up? Didn't think so.

We could have had Chuck Norris or Mickey Mouse the President of SWAPA and it wouldn't have changed one damn thing.

 

[texman]

The pilots of SWA could have stood up and said "don't screw these guys" Instead you voted for the most militant SWAPA pres. Who then got Gary to do the dirty work. That's exactly the way this went down. So yes I blame every SWA pilot for this. But like I have said before Pain is comming and it won't be pretty. Gary Has got to get costs in line, I won't stand with SWAPA.....ever.

I think your wrong. What pain?