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Cranky Flier: SWA continues Cutting ATL, DL must be thrilled

fletch717

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Dan, you say YOU, like I or any other SWA pilot had one bit of say on how any of this transpired.

Second, please post one shred of evidence any AT guy who is on the SWA side has been treated less than Top Shelf.

Those on the AT side? Well, you'll just have to ask the AT guys why they voted for that.

Oh, thats right, because not one pilot had a shred of say how GK was going to ******************** all of us...

You want to bitch, then blame GK, nobody else.

I understand how plane purchases work, so why didn't DL if they are so great take the pilots, seems you need someone to fly them who are already trained. Wouldn't that be better for the bottom line?

Have a good day Dan.


The pilots of SWA could have stood up and said "don't screw these guys" Instead you voted for the most militant SWAPA pres. Who then got Gary to do the dirty work. That's exactly the way this went down. So yes I blame every SWA pilot for this. But like I have said before Pain is comming and it won't be pretty. Gary Has got to get costs in line, I won't stand with SWAPA.....ever.
 

redflyer65

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Maybe Redflyer could use facts instead of throwing around terms like "slam dunk"? That was the attitude of most Corndogs on this website before entering ATL and then treating their own new brothers poorly. We all mostly take pride in our work place. I hope your airline does well, but the attitudes toward your own new pilots and the attitudes toward the "other" legacies have got to change. We are all in the same boat now. Hopefully we all climb together. But, some have more work than others.



Bye Bye---General Lee

General,

I think it might be time for you to take an extra dose of Xanax and chill out. What exactly did I state that WASN'T fact? Let's see....

1- Main point, SW has a completely different model than both AAI & DL.

2- SW goes direct to alot of distinations, bypassing Atlanta.

3- Delta is a great airline that will do well in the future.

4- SW is pretty good at route vs revenue. (Quarterly profits)

Then you start into some rant about the AAI pilots. Why is that? Because you have nothing else? Does anyone rip on you because some of the NWA pilots got hosed? I won't because it's really none of my business. You guys handled it a certain way, and it's done and over. Why do you feel like you need to say anything about our merger? Just because you were hoping for arbitration and a blood bath? You know that's true, and you got robbed out of it. Sorry.

Now tell me EXACTLY what I said that was cocky?

Maybe it's time for you to run on over the Regional Forum so you can smack them down a little and feel like a big man on campus. Talk about treating other pilots like garbage. The hate between mainline and regional pilots is stunning. And you personally foster that relationship. I'm glad that makes you feel important though. Very idiotic, similiar to the Rihanna post.

RF

Suprised you left out your LBB comments. You know they go hand in hand with your AAI schtick. You've become a joke unfortunately (and I mean that).
 

redflyer65

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The pilots of SWA could have stood up and said "don't screw these guys" Instead you voted for the most militant SWAPA pres. Who then got Gary to do the dirty work. That's exactly the way this went down. So yes I blame every SWA pilot for this. But like I have said before Pain is comming and it won't be pretty. Gary Has got to get costs in line, I won't stand with SWAPA.....ever.

You seriously think that SC was in charge of anything with regard to this integration? Gary Kelly ran the show and both sides were just along for the ride. If you think otherwise, then your living in a fantasy land.

Your MEC decided to stand up and said NO. And they got their head chopped off for doing so. Anyone else want to stand up? Didn't think so.

We could have had Chuck Norris or Mickey Mouse the President of SWAPA and it wouldn't have changed one damn thing.
 

texman

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The pilots of SWA could have stood up and said "don't screw these guys" Instead you voted for the most militant SWAPA pres. Who then got Gary to do the dirty work. That's exactly the way this went down. So yes I blame every SWA pilot for this. But like I have said before Pain is comming and it won't be pretty. Gary Has got to get costs in line, I won't stand with SWAPA.....ever.


I think your wrong. What pain?
 

scoreboardII

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The pilots of SWA could have stood up and said "don't screw these guys" Instead you voted for the most militant SWAPA pres. Who then got Gary to do the dirty work. That's exactly the way this went down. So yes I blame every SWA pilot for this. But like I have said before Pain is comming and it won't be pretty. Gary Has got to get costs in line, I won't stand with SWAPA.....ever.
All your opinion, which is not a fact.

Fact: each pilot group voted for what they got.

Fact: neither pilot group had a vote to stop the other sides vote.

Fact: If the AT deal is so bad, why did they vote for it? Oh thats right, it was in their best interests to vote for it. Cry me a river, same can be said for SWA pilot side.

Fact: not one pilot, not one president had any say in what GK did or didn't do. SC never had a chance to sway GK one inch. GK ran the show, and saddled SWA with this bitchfest.

FACT: GK got exactly what he wanted, you are living proof. By forcing the deal to a vote and getting a majority buy-in, you fell for his ownership mantra, therefore, YOU blame the SWA pilots. Your falling for his act.

FACT: swa pilots won't stand for this unions antics either, we just changed a majority of the headshed, and will probably do the same next vote. Except, our desired outcome was to shut the place down and go for staple. So as far from perfect as you think the deal is, we have the same feelings.

Yet, I'm not casting one ounce of blame to the AT pilots. Fact: I look forward to the day this ********************storm is behind us and we are back to growth or at least making money.

Fact: blame GK, not the pilots.
 
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Luv2BFlyin

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The next time WN merges with another carrier, there will be a significant group of FAT pilots that will be very vocal about making sure the merged carrier gets a fair integration. In fact, probably going out of their way to make sure it happens, even to the detriment of themselves. To say that RSW pilots had no say is BS. GK didn't care how it got done as long as it happened. When it became apparent that initially the ATN pilots weren't going to accept the bitch slap and SWAPA wasn't going to negotiate for a fair integration, he decided on threats to avert arbitration and risk pissing off his pilots who conveniently forgot the Golden Rule for the time being.

I've got 25 years left, over 20 after re-upgrading, and the RSW pilots will always share in the responsibility for this debacle, no matter what you FI cheerleaders say.
 

scoreboardII

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The next time WN merges with another carrier, there will be a significant group of FAT pilots that will be very vocal about making sure the merged carrier gets a fair integration. In fact, probably going out of their way to make sure it happens, even to the detriment of themselves. To say that RSW pilots had no say is BS. GK didn't care how it got done as long as it happened. When it became apparent that initially the ATN pilots weren't going to accept the bitch slap and SWAPA wasn't going to negotiate for a fair integration, he decided on threats to avert arbitration and risk pissing off his pilots who conveniently forgot the Golden Rule for the time being.

.
You make the case perfectly to divert your misplaced anger to the one who is to blame: GK.

By all of Lears accounts, SWAPA was not in the room while discusing your side of the deal. So why did you vote yes for the deal?

I've got 25 years left, over 20 after re-upgrading, and the RSW pilots will always share in the responsibility for this debacle, no matter what you FI cheerleaders say
Bring that attitude to the cockpit and you'll be applying at Walmart.
 
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Luv2BFlyin

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You make the case perfectly to divert your misplaced anger to the one who is to blame: GK.

Bring that attitude to the cockpit and you'll be applying at Walmart.

Actually, since GK didn't care how it got done as long as it did and didn't piss off his precious babies, it makes the case that had RSW pilots cared about the Golden Rule, they could have affected the outcome.

I look forward to the day the first FAT pilot is disciplined for a bad attitude. It should make for an interesting court battle if SWAPA fails on DFR after what's happened in this deal. Not scared.
 

Dan Roman

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Dan,
Serious question.... in a nutshell, what did DAL do to PAN AM? I once met a professional engineer with PAN AM who was taken on by DAL and allowed to become a pilot and now a captain. His case sounded like a generous deal, but I am admittingly too young to know how the PAN AM pilots were wronged.

They took pilots out of seniority. For instance, that F/E you mentioned was probably junior to a lot who wanted to go. It was based on who was current on the airplanes they took. Lot more to it than that I'm sure, but it's been awhile since I heard the whole story.
 

Dan Roman

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Dan, you say YOU, like I or any other SWA pilot had one bit of say on how any of this transpired.

Second, please post one shred of evidence any AT guy who is on the SWA side has been treated less than Top Shelf.

Those on the AT side? Well, you'll just have to ask the AT guys why they voted for that.

Oh, thats right, because not one pilot had a shred of say how GK was going to ******************** all of us...

You want to bitch, then blame GK, nobody else.

I understand how plane purchases work, so why didn't DL if they are so great take the pilots, seems you need someone to fly them who are already trained. Wouldn't that be better for the bottom line?

Have a good day Dan.

I am using "you" generically, I mean it as SWA, not you personally. Yes it was GK that was the deceitful one. Can't believe you say the AT pilots voted FOR the deal they got. They voted the way they did because they found out they were dealing with a very duplicitous GK and left with no other offer.

Not sure how you can read this board and say all the AirTran pilots feel they have been treated "top shelf"? Really?

You said you understand how airplane purchases work and than you ask a rhetorical question that indicates you don't? Pilots never go with airplane only purchases. Only if the routes AND the airplanes are bought.
 

scoreboardII

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Exactly Dan, yet now you blame SwA for doing the same thing, getting rid of jets, yet doing the admirable thing and keep the pilots employed instead of classic furloughs.
 

scoreboardII

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Actually, since GK didn't care how it got done as long as it did and didn't piss off his precious babies, it makes the case that had RSW pilots cared about the Golden Rule, they could have affected the outcome.

I look forward to the day the first FAT pilot is disciplined for a bad attitude. It should make for an interesting court battle if SWAPA fails on DFR after what's happened in this deal. Not scared.
GK didn't care how it got done?

So your on speaking terms with GK?

You look forward to problems?

That's your prerogative.
 

Dan Roman

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Exactly Dan, yet now you blame SwA for doing the same thing, getting rid of jets, yet doing the admirable thing and keep the pilots employed instead of classic furloughs.

I don't think that's too admirable buying an airline, cherry picking what you want and leaving the ex employee's with a considerably altered future. IF no one gets furloughed, it will not be out of any charitable feelings from GK, it will be because it's not needed.
I know it's "just business" but mergers are not a good thing. They are all about a few people making money at the expense of the employee's. So anything the employee's can do to retaliate is fair game.
 

DonVerita

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Gary Kelly ran the show and both sides were just along for the ride. If you think otherwise, then your living in a fantasy land.

We could have had Chuck Norris or Mickey Mouse [as] the President of SWAPA and it wouldn't have changed one damn thing.

After reading this summation, I have serious doubts as to the effectiveness of SWAPA as a union. From the above statement(s), it appears that SWAPA is merely a stringed puppet of Management.

"Always take the first offer or else...the second will be much worse".

Apparently that mantra is ingrained in the mindset of virtually every SWA pilot, and even some of the F/A's whom have talked with me candidly. When are the SWA pilots going to put an end to this?
 

humveedriver

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They took pilots out of seniority. For instance, that F/E you mentioned was probably junior to a lot who wanted to go. It was based on who was current on the airplanes they took. Lot more to it than that I'm sure, but it's been awhile since I heard the whole story.

Can Delta Absorb Pan Am Staff?
If Delta acquires parts of bankrupt Pan Am as planned, it must merge contrasting cultures


By Jim Bencivenga, Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor / August 12, 1991

ATLANTA
DOZENS of unsold Eastern jets sit like beached whales along the road from the airport to Delta's corporate headquarters."No one in this business likes to see jets grounded," says Nichols Parker, personnel relations director for Delta Air Lines Inc. To him, the sleek, silver and blue planes, parked near empty hangars, mean "the people who fly them are grounded as well." Being grounded is not a problem facing Delta employees. It has not laid off a single permanent employee in the past 34 years. Absorbing new ones could be, however - 6,000 in one gulp if its planned acquisition of parts of bankrupt Pan American Airlines goes through. The merger of corporate cultures is never easy in the best of times. In this tumultuous period for the airline industry it can be "a make or break decision for an airline," says Frank Spencer, professor emeritus of transportation and industrial relations at Northwestern University and a retired American Airlines pilot. Unique in the airline industry, Delta has a no-layoff policy that makes it the envy of its rivals. With the exception of its pilots, it is nonunion. It guarantees a paycheck in this highly cyclical (and bankruptcy prone) industry where cutting people to reduce costs is standard practice. The Atlanta-based carrier is expanding aggressively into overseas markets and the bid to acquire Pan Am's European routes fits right in with that plan, Mr. Spencer says. But the cornerstone of Delta's success, industry experts say, has been its people. Its corporate identity is irrevocably linked to its practice of hiring at the entry level and then making all promotions from within. What are the greatest pitfalls Delta faces in merging Pan Am's union employees with its nonunion work force? "Usually the real difficulty in merger/acquisitions as proposed for Delta and Pan Am, is the seniority list merger," says John Mazor of the Airline Pilots Association in Washington, D.C. At issue is how a person with, say, 10 years of service for Pan Am would rank against a 10-year Delta veteran. Pension rights are also a critical factor, says Tony Chapman of the Georgia Department of Labor, a former Eastern employee who lost his job after 23 years with the company. "People coming out of unionized ranks will see tremendous changes at Delta." Of the 18,000 unemployed Eastern workers, Delta hired 400, says Mr. Chapman, quickly adding that Delta was very supportive in practical ways after Eastern went bankrupt. Delta backed Eastern, for example, when it sought government aid for retraining of its laid-off employees. All the Eastern hires started out at the bottom pay scale for their job description, he says. It is standard practice at Delta to carefully screen all applicants, says Frances Conner, a company spokeswoman. Interviewees find out that Delta isn't for everyone, she says. Delta's traditional style prohibits the wearing of miniskirts by women, or earrings by men. And just to make doubly sure an employee is the right fit for the Delta family, certain categories of employment, such as ramp and ticket agents and cabin cleanup crews, are hired first as temporaries (no paid holiday's, sick leave, or vacation), a temporary status that may last in some cases for as much as six years. Temporary workers can make up as much as 10 percent of Delta's work force. This is the wiggle room Delta builds into its work force when there is a downturn in the economy, says Ms. Conner. During slack times, management has shifted junior pilots to cleanup crews until business picked up. There are two reasons for "modest optimism" on the successful merger of work forces, says Robert Neuschel, managing director of the Transportation Center at Northwestern University. First is Pan Am chief executive officer Thomas Plaskett's commitment to keep "the jobs of as many Pan Am employees as possible in any takeover by Delta;" second, Delta's "very enlightened personnel policy and good contracts." "I'm not suggesting they won't have problems merging, but they will have as good a chance as anyone," says Mr. Neuschel. Despite, or because of, the turbulent times for the airline industry, Delta receives 2,000 applicants a day, says Mr. Parker. Of these, less than 5 percent will ever get to the interview stage. "This lets us get the best qualified, the most motiviated individuals," he says.

Funny how the ore things change, the more they stay the same..
 

Dan Roman

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"Always take the first offer or else...the second will be much worse".

Apparently that mantra is ingrained in the mindset of virtually every SWA pilot, and even some of the F/A's whom have talked with me candidly. When are the SWA pilots going to put an end to this?

Maybe when they realize their little warrior spirit thing is all about blindly taking orders from management?
 

GhettoBeechjet

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The good news for the AAI pilots is that the integration will get done per the agreements. Maybe Fletch et all will feel better about it when the first pilot furloughed in 2015 is a RSW guy and they are still working.
 

freightdogfred

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The good news for the AAI pilots is that the integration will get done per the agreements. Maybe Fletch et all will feel better about it when the first pilot furloughed in 2015 is a RSW guy and they are still working.

Hey, like ole Score's said- you guys voted for it

ye reap what ye sow
 
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