Cracks found at SWA

[PositiveRate]

Hey - read my post before you jump all over me SkyBoy.

We're talking about waiting in line for 4 or 5 others to depart full length or leaving immediately off an intersection that is 3000' down the runway. Pilot requested - not ATC. I've seen it in LAS as well with A3 and A4 departures from 25L simply to avoid the line. It's not a direct questioning of safety per se as I don't believe they would request it if the numbers weren't good...I see it more as a reflection of what I perceive to be a cultural 'go getter' mentality that could easily put pilots in a situation that would be highly criticized (regardless of legality) if God forbid something were to happen and that extra runway would have made a difference.

The reason I posted this is not to bash Southwest...it's because this mx inspection debacle has renewed an ongoing curiousity of mine of just how far into the company this perceived 'go getter' (read corner cutting) mentality extends.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Hey - read my post before you jump all over me SkyBoy.

We're talking about waiting in line for 4 or 5 others to depart full length or leaving immediately off an intersection that is 3000' down the runway. Pilot requested - not ATC. I've seen it in LAS as well with A3 and A4 departures from 25L simply to avoid the line. It's not a direct questioning of safety per se as I don't believe they would request it if the numbers weren't good...I see it more as a reflection of what I perceive to be a cultural 'go getter' mentality that could easily put pilots in a situation that would be highly criticized (regardless of legality) if God forbid something were to happen and that extra runway would have made a difference.

The reason I posted this is not to bash Southwest...it's because this mx inspection debacle has renewed an ongoing curiousity of mine of just how far into the company this perceived 'go getter' (read corner cutting) mentality extends.

I ain't a "hater", but I agree that the perception you speak of is there.

Could being paid for segment miles and not block hours have anything to do with it? Or on a 6 leg day do you just want to get it over with as fast as f-in possible? I know I would.

 

[Babylon]

There is definitely a difference here between SWA and the other airlines - some good, some bad but there's no question that they sacrifice some safety for efficiency.

Look I fly the 737-700 for the Reserves and we have 6 SWA guys in my squadron. They are all aircraft commanders. When they fly the plane with the Navy they fly like everyone else - take the whole runway, taxi no faster than 20 kts, etc and our rules don't say anything any intersection takeoffs. There's a mentality at SWA that is different and I suspect that if a lot of pilots were flying the same exact aircraft at a different place with different pay rules, they would fly it differently.

 

[FlyinGuy]

Babylon,
There are definately those old heads that still do things, well lets say "a little different". Most of the guys that I fly with now days are really trying to do things by the book. The mentality is changing around here, but it takes a while to turn the ship around (both in operation and perception). There will always be those that push the envelope in every operation. I would question your "safety for efficency" comment. SWA does not compromise safety for efficency. Just because someone does something a little different, does not mean that they are compromising safety. (Current MX baffoonery excluded!!)

 

[PositiveRate]

The mentality is changing around here, but it takes a while to turn the ship around (both in operation and perception).

That jives with what I see and hear from people over there - the new gaurd is slowly changing the way things are done. Here's to hoping that this mx issue produces positive change for your company. No one was hurt from this, so if change is produced without the blood the FAA usually requires, than that's a very good thing regardless.

I also agree that the safety for efficiency exchange might be going a bit too far. The intersection departures are almost surely 'in the green' as far as weights/performance/safety is concerned, but they are undoubtedly closer to the proverbial 'line' where you really do start trading safety for efficiency. Like I said before...working at or near the line is fine until something happens where you open yourself to widespread criticism because certain protections were forfited to keep the operation or your personal schedule on track.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

We're talking about waiting in line for 4 or 5 others to depart full length or leaving immediately off an intersection that is 3000' down the runway. Pilot requested - not ATC. I've seen it in LAS as well with A3 and A4 departures from 25L simply to avoid the line. It's not a direct questioning of safety per se as I don't believe they would request it if the numbers weren't good...I see it more as a reflection of what I perceive to be a cultural 'go getter' mentality that could easily put pilots in a situation that would be highly criticized (regardless of legality) if God forbid something were to happen and that extra runway would have made a difference.

The reason I posted this is not to bash Southwest...it's because this mx inspection debacle has renewed an ongoing curiousity of mine of just how far into the company this perceived 'go getter'

Well...I am a "go getter" but I don't take chances. for the record, I have never requested a departure from A-3 or A-4 while in line for 25L at PHX. Never even considered the performance data for it.

I have, on just a few occasions, used the "U" intersection when departing from 29 at OAK. But the few times I've done it, I knew I had a light acft and plenty of stopping margin.

Without that, I wouldn't even consider it.

 

[Donald]

I've never had a situation where tower would let us or anyone else use an intersection to "cut in line". Again, the only time I have used an intersection to get around other aircraft, was at tower's request to meet an EDCT.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Lets be clear, this is why SWA was supposed to be making these inspections.

Alooooooooooo-HA!!!

 

[GuppyWN]

Well I might as well feed the beast.

I taxi 20 to 30 knots. Hell I drive my car at 70 on the freeway so I figure it's just one jet on the taxiway - I ought to be able to do 30. I'd rather get out of the way than be in the way like some other fAAirly shiny jets I've seen.

I've been know to use the intersection for takeoff. The computer tells me I have a half of a mile stopping margin if I lose an engine before V1 so I figure that ought to cover even my reaction time. Besides, if I'm not legal to use the intersection in OAK then I can never fly into MDW or BUR or ISP ever again.

Mr. Kelly pays me to MANAGE RISK. That's what I do. I don't look for it. I don't invite it. I MANAGE it.

Cowboy Gup

 

[Donald]

Well said Gup

 

[Donald]

By-The-Way, Regarding SWA's situation with the FAA. If anyone actually read the statement by Mr. Oberstar, you may note that he feels pretty certain this practice of "cozy inspectors" exist at other airlines as well. And, he is worried they will be reluctant to come forward with it as SWA did. Especially sense we did and still got slapped with the 10.2 mill fine.

 

[canyonblue]

If you had a high speed abort and went off the end, where do you think the scrutiny or the media and the feds would fall - especially considering you voluntarily shortened the pavement by 30% to save time???

I could care less about this thread, but when posters, who I perceive are pilots, post crap like this I have to respond. If the Performance Computer shows that it can be done, it CAN BE DONE. Have you ever taken off with a reduced thrust takeoff? Why? Wouldn't that be unsafe? About the same as the stupid post on intersection departures, unbelievable.

 

[PositiveRate]

GuppyWN - fair enough. I'm pointing out my perception only.

Canyonblue - With all due respect, this is not about whether it can be done safely (it can). It's the decision making behind it that I believe is cultural and has contributed to many other mishaps in recent years. I'm curious if a similar culture exists in the maintenance department and is in any way a contributer to the missed inspections.

For the record, I believe this same cultural 'go getter' mentality has made your airline one of the best in the country as far as customer service and efficiency go. There are two sides to the coin. That still does not change the fact that the scrutiny would be extreme in a mishap from certain scenarios that I've seen.

Anyways, I've said my peace. Nothing more to post here.

 

[ASADFW7]

I find it interesting that we can take off on a seven thousand foot field and no one questions it. However when we take off from an intersection with seven thousand feet remaining we are cowboys.

Aviation culture has changed since the 1990's both at SWA and at every place else.

 

[CaptSeth]

Wtfo?

I saw the title to this thread and got all excited. But it's not what I was hoping for at all.

 

[kwick]

How about the decision to fly over water without life rafts. I wouldn't fly a private aircraft with family onboard without life rafts from ISP-Fll. Would you? Just another example of sacrificing safety to make an extra dollar.

 

[328dude]

How about the decision to fly over water without life rafts. I wouldn't fly a private aircraft with family onboard without life rafts from ISP-Fll. Would you? Just another example of sacrificing safety to make an extra dollar.

Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner boys. Yet another example of people making statements about something they have not researched. You must be really fun to fly with in your own perception of how the FAR's really work.

Congrats, you've passed the "Tool" stage and have graduated to "Tool Bag".

 

[superfly]

Check this out

remember this one:

http://thefuntimesguide.com/audio/Bud_Light_Real_Men_of_Genius_Mr_Discount_Airline_Pilot_Guy.mp3

 

[Dude]

What I find extraordinary is the number of "pilots" that will not operate in any environment until it is in black and white that the risks are minimal and if something happens, someone (the company or FAA) will back them up. Look at your certificates and do what it says, "exercize the privileges...". If I run an aircraft off of the runway and the computed stopping margin was a positive number, then I will stand firmly in front of those at the inquisition and affirm my decision. I made a justified and LEGAL decision. This industry is full of daisies that what guarantees and, frankly, have chosen the wrong profession. Your position requires judgement and as Gup said, you have to manage risk. I am not scared of my airplane and more importantly, I am not scared of myself. Do your job. If you want a guarantee that every time you take off nothing will happen or you will avoid investigation, then you are over paid and your dispatcher and autopilot deserve a raise. Call me a cowboy all you want but "get 'r done" is exactly what I am and pilots are supposed to be. Oh yeah, our maintenence is kick-a$$. I'd rather fly a convertible SWA 737 maintained by our mx than anyone elses.

 

[USMC319]

Oh yeah, our maintenence is kick-a$$. I'd rather fly a convertible SWA 737 maintained by our mx than anyone elses.

Dude,

That is real Jonestown KoolAid you are drinking now. I would get real or find a new line of work...Amazing.