Could Southwest's run of profitability be coming to an end?

[jke406]

Those low paid Piiots that rolled the dice got "stock/profit sharing" instead of the high pay and juicy pensions the other airlines had. The one's retiring today are leaving typically with 3-4 Million cash! Highest one I heard of was 7+ Million.

7 million cash? really? that would be over 58,000 shares of stock at 12 bucks/share.

but you did say "cash" and not "stock."

 

[fiel12]

Your company spent 20 years at the bottom of the heap and are only on top now because everyone else took a pay cut.

Hmmmmmm. When did CAL, DAL, UAL pay their 737 CA's 250-300k a year?

 

[Sedona16]

Plain and simple if SWA lost its hedging advantage and had to raise prices across the board in every city to what all airlines were charging (including advanced fare) they would suffer badly. Their whole model is based upon low fares and a no frills product. They are falling further and further behind in the offerings with the likes of live TV and a host of other upgrades the other airlines are making to their fleets.

I know the southwest guys like to think there is loyalty to the airline with the uglies planes but it just aint so. Price is what keeps them afloat. Btw, adding some computer kiosks was a nice idea but not enough. SWA is the flavor of the month after 911. I think it is great they have so many profitably quarters in a row but the industry is quickly morphing into something unlike every seen and the domestic market is saturated. The model southwest used in the past will be more difficult (not impossible if they can cannibalize markets where other carriers are dying....read Frontier/Denver). Other than that they best keep their hedges in place or it does not bode well for them in the next ten years.

 

[fiel12]

Their whole model is based upon low fares and a no frills product.

FYI, I just jumpsat on a legacy carrier the other day on a 2 1/2 hr flight. The gate had no computer kiosks or comfey chairs. On the flight, bevs only, not even pretzels. But I will say the flight /cabin crew was great to me.
Thanks guys!
Oh yeah, sorry. What was that about no frills?

 

[Sedona16]

FYI, I just jumpsat on a legacy carrier the other day on a 2 1/2 hr flight. The gate had no computer kiosks or comfey chairs. On the flight, bevs only, not even pretzels. But I will say the flight /cabin crew was great to me.
Thanks guys!
Oh yeah, sorry. What was that about no frills?

Well barring your experience I think across the board there is little comparison. Delta has adapted much of what was on Song and I can tell you from first hand experience it is being well received. Do a word association with John Q. Public and throw the name Southwest Airlines out there and you will get "Cattle Car Operation" followed by "Low Prices".

Alaska is now facing a direct assault from VA on a model that has worked for them for years (read "can AK survive assault from VA" thread) and this is not unlike how many in the industry are raising the bar while SWA rides its old worn out ways. Alaska is trying to rise to the occasion but they have alot of ground to cover. Dont get me wrong, as a pilot I hate VA and think they are one of the new cancers to add to the long list of LLC's but they bring a new game to town as far as competition/amenities go, far beyond the no frills show SWA continues to try to run with.

PS- I suggest riding in the back on another flight because the advantages I am talking about are large in part found on the actual airplanes during the flight and not at the gate.

 

[Tanker Clown]

FYI, I just jumpsat on a legacy carrier the other day on a 2 1/2 hr flight. The gate had no computer kiosks or comfey chairs. On the flight, bevs only, not even pretzels. But I will say the flight /cabin crew was great to me.
Thanks guys!
Oh yeah, sorry. What was that about no frills?

Is being late a frill? That seems to be a legacy special.

 

[puddlejumper101]

Well barring your experience I think across the board there is little comparison. Delta has adapted much of what was on Song and I can tell you from first hand experience it is being well received. Do a word association with John Q. Public and throw the name Southwest Airlines out there and you will get "Cattle Car Operation" followed by "Low Prices".

Alaska is now facing a direct assault from VA on a model that has worked for them for years (read "can AK survive assault from VA" thread) and this is not unlike how many in the industry are raising the bar while SWA rides its old worn out ways. Alaska is trying to rise to the occasion but they have alot of ground to cover. Dont get me wrong, as a pilot I hate VA and think they are one of the new cancers to add to the long list of LLC's but they bring a new game to town as far as competition/amenities go, far beyond the no frills show SWA continues to try to run with.

PS- I suggest riding in the back on another flight because the advantages I am talking about are large in part found on the actual airplanes during the flight and not at the gate.

Blah blah blah...yes we know SWA is going down in flames...they have been going down in flames for 37 years.
Kelleher build it...kept everyone happy...never screwed his own...made millionaires out of all of those employees that stuck it out in the 80's so yeah he should be well compensated. I bet you did not know that a few years ago SWA had the most millionaires working for them than any other COMPANY in the United States...even more than Microsoft. So yeah Herb deserves every penny, if anything, he should have made more.
Last I heard this cattle call thing has been exactly that since SWA started...their service has always been below that of legacy carriers or other discounters (or so they say)...and their hedges will run out and they will tank. Why don't we find a new topic to discuss??? Waiting for SWA to tank seems to be the hobby of most around here.

 

[Tanker Clown]

Plain and simple if SWA lost its hedging advantage and had to raise prices across the board in every city to what all airlines were charging (including advanced fare) they would suffer badly. Their whole model is based upon low fares and a no frills product. They are falling further and further behind in the offerings with the likes of live TV and a host of other upgrades the other airlines are making to their fleets.

I know the southwest guys like to think there is loyalty to the airline with the uglies planes but it just aint so. Price is what keeps them afloat. Btw, adding some computer kiosks was a nice idea but not enough. SWA is the flavor of the month after 911. I think it is great they have so many profitably quarters in a row but the industry is quickly morphing into something unlike every seen and the domestic market is saturated. The model southwest used in the past will be more difficult (not impossible if they can cannibalize markets where other carriers are dying....read Frontier/Denver). Other than that they best keep their hedges in place or it does not bode well for them in the next ten years.

No offense Sedona, but are you a retard or someting? Whatever you think of the Southwest model, it's the ONLY one that has been consistantly successful. UAL, DAL, and NWA all were in BK a few years ago. Who made money last quarter? WN and CAL. DAL has so much debt that it would have to have a couple decades worth of record profits to pay off their debt. UAL looks like it is starting to have a ton of issues. If I had a choice, I'd go with the "post 9-11 flavor of the month." But then again, I don't like pay cuts and furloughs.

 

[Sedona16]

Blah blah blah...yes we know SWA is going down in flames...they have been going down in flames for 37 years.
Kelleher build it...kept everyone happy...never screwed his own...made millionaires out of all of those employees that stuck it out in the 80's so yeah he should be well compensated. I bet you did not know that a few years ago SWA had the most millionaires working for them than any other COMPANY in the United States...even more than Microsoft. So yeah Herb deserves every penny, if anything, he should have made more.
Last I heard this cattle call thing has been exactly that since SWA started...their service has always been below that of legacy carriers or other discounters (or so they say)...and their hedges will run out and they will tank. Why don't we find a new topic to discuss??? Waiting for SWA to tank seems to be the hobby of most around here.

This is only one of a variety of topics I have weighed in on. If it hurts your feelings go have a good cry in the corner or quit coming to these threads you know all too well about then posting which no doubt further injects life causing the thread to grow further. I have noticed some southwest guys like to focus on small slices of the reality of the company they work for. It has been a good operation from a profiitablity standpoint. Some of the early guys did make alot of money on stock. How long has it been a top five pick to work for pilots? Id say about seven years of all the years it has been in existance (Im sure some will give antidotal evidence to the contrary). The higher pay RELATIVE to others these PAST SEVEN YEARS and growth have made it more attractive when others were going into BK. I dont see it being the flavor of the month into the next decade. Its reliance on "we just keep doin it the way weve done and will get what we have gotten" mentallity with a market that has and is changing is coming to bare.

 

[Tanker Clown]

Sedona...I don't even have a dog in this fight, but I would just say SCOREBOARD. Reguardless of what you think, they do something that no other airline does on a regular basis: MAKE MONEY.

What's the next "flavor of the month?" Delta, and all their debt. UAL & AMR are both significantly flawed. CAL is probably your best bet, but I had to pick a way to feed my family, I'd go with SWA any day of the week. You obviously aren't a fan, but you should thank the SWA guys for raising and holding the pay bar. No one else can claim that.

 

[StopNTSing]

Well barring your experience I think across the board there is little comparison. Delta has adapted much of what was on Song and I can tell you from first hand experience it is being well received. Do a word association with John Q. Public and throw the name Southwest Airlines out there and you will get "Cattle Car Operation" followed by "Low Prices".

...followed by "Largest Domestic Carrier in the United States"

Alaska is now facing a direct assault from VA on a model that has worked for them for years (read "can AK survive assault from VA" thread) and this is not unlike how many in the industry are raising the bar while SWA rides its old worn out ways. Alaska is trying to rise to the occasion but they have alot of ground to cover. Dont get me wrong, as a pilot I hate VA and think they are one of the new cancers to add to the long list of LLC's but they bring a new game to town as far as competition/amenities go, far beyond the no frills show SWA continues to try to run with.

PS- I suggest riding in the back on another flight because the advantages I am talking about are large in part found on the actual airplanes during the flight and not at the gate.

As a commuter, I often do ride in the back of several other airlines. Some of the "advantages" I see too often are four a-breast narrow seats, little overhead bins, nothing on the seatback but a tray (which is a lot closer to my knees than on one of SWA's ugly jets) and cloth seat cushions that feel like a concrete block after 30 minutes.


P.S. I too, hate those cancerous Limited Liability Corporations

 

[luv2fly]

7 million cash? really? that would be over 58,000 shares of stock at 12 bucks/share.

but you did say "cash" and not "stock."

Actually, the guys you are talking about had about around 38,000 shares at $3.88 strike price. Those options expired over a year ago.

 

[727C47]

You guys crack me up,with all due respect,SWA is an awesome company, it has excelled through times both lean and lush, all this harping is just sour grapes, I don't fly for SWA,I just have had the pleasure of their jumpseat on numerous occasions, and my wife is currently swimming in their hiring pool. Their track record speaks for itself. And Herb Kelleher is worth every ducat he is graced with and more, a few more CEO's like him ,and none of you other brand gents would be bitching and moaning. End of rave. Best of luck to DAL,NWA,CAL,UAL,AA ,et al, I wish nothing but the best for all of you,indeed I have friends and family at every company mentioned,but enough with the schadenfreude (spelling?) already !

 

[YourPilotFriend]

That's what we call "Owned" lady's and lady's. Nice work dude.

You know why you think i'm owned? Because it is very hard to find out what Herb has really received from SW. Over the years he has kept his salary rather low, however he has received over $200 million in stock awards. Ask him yourself if you don't believe me......I have.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

It's really not all that hard to find the info. Why you continue to spew the wrong information is beyond me.

Here is Kelly's Compensation:

http://www.unitedafa.org/news/ceo_chart.asp

Gary's, Collen's and Herb's Compensation vs Arpey at AMR:

Airline CEO compensation numbers

11:46 AM Sun, Nov 11, 2007 | Permalink
Terry Maxon E-mail

News tips


A communications guy at the Allied Pilots Association passed on some numbers Sunday morning, none of them new:


AMR chairman, president and CEO Gerard Arpey's total compensation for 2006: $10,201,059.


Southwest chairman Herb Kelleher's total compensation for 2006: $1,365,000.

Southwest president Colleen Barrett's total compensation for 2006: $1,256,935.

Southwest CEO Gary Kelly's total compensation for 2006: $1,405,883.


So the AMR chairman, CEO and president (one person) made $10,201,059, and the chairman, CEO and president of Southwest (three people) made $4,027,818.


Breaking that down, Mr. Arpey had $581,534 in salary; the Southwest trio had $1,229,347. In bonuses, Mr. Arpey got nothing; the Southwest trio got $1,277,000.


So in salary and bonuses, Mr. Arpey earned $581,534; the Southwest trio earned $2,506,347.


Under the Securities and Exchange Commission rules on reporting executive compensation, Mr. Arpey's total soared primarily on the assumed values of stock awards ($8,558,878) and option awards ($851,398). The option awards for the



Southwest trio totaled only $1,180,157.
Apropo of nothing, SEC filings indicate that Mr. Kelleher has sold 425,000 shares of Southwest stock this year for $6.46 million. At the start of the year, he had around 3.47 million shares of Southwest stock; after some Oct. 30 sales, his holdings were down to 3.05 million shares.


Mr. Kelleher exercised options in July to acquire 60,000 shares at $16.40. His average sale price this year has been about $15.21 a share. His October sales were for $14 to $14.10, depending on the day.


Mr. Arpey in April received and quickly sold 207,900 shares he received in a stock performance plan that riled the unions and other employees. He grossed $6.18 million from those shares, plus another $1.51 million from stock options he exercised for about $438,000.

So why does Gary Kelly stay at SW when he can come over to any other airline and make ten times as much and not even have to work for it??? Is he stupid??

 

[Tanker Clown]

Maybe he doesn't want to preside over a disaster at one of the legacies. I'd personally get more satisfaction growing a successful company vs. fleecing a dying one.

 

[328dude]

You know why you think i'm owned? Because it is very hard to find out what Herb has really received from SW. Over the years he has kept his salary rather low, however he has received over $200 million in stock awards. Ask him yourself if you don't believe me......I have.

Cool, takes a lot of skill to back pedal that much. Thanks for playing.

Next?

 

[Jim Smyth]

Herbs worth every penny he made and should have been paid more, Gary too! Show me another airline CEO/Board member thats been at the helm for as long as Herb has and hasnt rapped the company blind with all the golden parachutes.

The reason Herb and Gary are still around is because they enjoy there job and have fun at it! Plus there both Texans and its called professional pride for there company!

 

[SWA/FO]

The one's retiring today are leaving typically with 3-4 Million cash!

except nobody is retiring...thus SWA/FO is still the SWA/FO

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Herbs worth every penny he made and should have been paid more, Gary too! Show me another airline CEO/Board member thats been at the helm for as long as Herb has and hasnt rapped the company blind with all the golden parachutes.

The reason Herb and Gary are still around is because they enjoy there job and have fun at it! Plus there both Texans and its called professional pride for there company!

Exactly...So why does everyone go around saying they are the lowest paid to make other airlines look bad, when clearly they are the highest paid and deserve it? I don't understand?