Could Southwest's run of profitability be coming to an end?

[Lampshade]

I know this has been beaten to death but this the first time I've read SWA management mention it. Not a good sign for all airlines if true.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/sky/2008/01/southwest.html

 

[120% Torque]

I know this has been beaten to death but this the first time I've read SWA management mention it. Not a good sign for all airlines if true.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/sky/2008/01/southwest.html

Well I think this quote is a tell tell sign:

"We would not have made money in the fourth quarter if not for fuel-hedging gains," the Fort Worth Star-Telegram (free registration) quotes Kelly as saying on the conference call. Kelly said the airline's fuel hedges boosted the carrier's bottom line by $300 million in the quarter.

Southwest doesn't have the competative advantage to the extent it once did. Previously they were the lowest cost carrier, could swoop in to almost any city, USA and undercut whoever and make an easy buck while growing. With a saturated domestic market, no real international flying to speak of and lower cost carriers who have more ammenities things are different now. Also the majors/legacies drastically reduced their operating costs. The saving grace of Southwest right now is its fuel hedges and lower debt. Even with the lower debt it is a bad sign that without fuel hedges they would have lost money last quarter. On a separate note the pilots at southwest are very reminiscent of the pilots of United back in 2000, very outspoken about how they are paid more than everybody else and thinking they are invincible. Time will tell. For right now though their eggs are all in one basket and the bottom of that basket is now made of wet tissue paper.

 

[huronip]

Well I think this quote is a tell tell sign:

"We would not have made money in the fourth quarter if not for fuel-hedging gains," the Fort Worth Star-Telegram (free registration) quotes Kelly as saying on the conference call. Kelly said the airline's fuel hedges boosted the carrier's bottom line by $300 million in the quarter.

Southwest doesn't have the competative advantage to the extent it once did. Previously they were the lowest cost carrier, could swoop in to almost any city, USA and undercut whoever and make an easy buck while growing. With a saturated domestic market, no real international flying to speak of and lower cost carriers who have more ammenities things are different now. Also the majors/legacies drastically reduced their operating costs. The saving grace of Southwest right now is its fuel hedges and lower debt. Even with the lower debt it is a bad sign that without fuel hedges they would have lost money last quarter. On a separate note the pilots at southwest are very reminiscent of the pilots of United back in 2000, very outspoken about how they are paid more than everybody else and thinking they are invinceable. Time will tell. For right now though their eggs are all in one basket and the bottom of that basket is now made of wet tissue paper.

Do you mean invincible? Those Southwest pilots that you speak of as thinking they are "invinceable" are a very small minority of the pilots at Southwest. I think that the majority of us feel that we are very fortunate and nothing more.

 

[120% Torque]

Do you mean invincible? Those Southwest pilots that you speak of as thinking they are "invinceable" are a very small minority of the pilots at Southwest. I think that the majority of us feel that we are very fortunate and nothing more.

Well good luck to you. It gets nausiating to see some who come on here bragging about their pay. Yet their pay is a fraction of what the legacies used to make. Maybe Southwest is the flavor of the month and I wish continued success. I hope they get pay raises in their next contract. I have a feeling the "invincible" people working at southwest are in for a rude awakening however.

 

[huronip]

Well good luck to you. It gets nausiating to see some who come on here bragging about their pay. Yet their pay is a fraction of what the legacies used to make. Maybe Southwest is the flavor of the month and I wish continued success. I hope they get pay raises in their next contract. I have a feeling the "invincible" people working at southwest are in for a rude awakening however.

If way get a pay raise it will only be a COLA. I think the majority of us realize that.

 

[Tank68]

Man, if you let this web site actuall make you sick, you should get a new hobby. For more than a few, pissing people off on FI is a sport. Actual usefull info is hard to find. I can tell you I would never actually pay to get on this sight. I do find humor in it and when I read something I know is meant to get a rise out of me I laugh it off.

As for those SWA guys, believe me we know times are tough. I am happy with my pay but I do not wish to be the highest paid. Cost of living and a few improvements in the work rules is all I expect from the next contract.

just remember it is just a web site. wishing harm to a group of people because of a few comments you read on fi is kinda sad.

 

[737 Pylt]

Do you mean invincible? Those Southwest pilots that you speak of as thinking they are "invinceable" are a very small minority of the pilots at Southwest. I think that the majority of us feel that we are very fortunate and nothing more.

Perhaps you've never met the infamous swa/fo!

737

 

[AlbieF15]

Perhaps you've never met the infamous swa/fo!

737

His ability to push some folks' buttons is nothing less than pure performance art. He is a rare and talented artist, and his handiwork creates long threads, angst, and grinding teeth.

Watching from afar, however, can be humorous...

 

[whoknows]

His ability to push some folks' buttons is nothing less than pure performance art. He is a rare and talented artist, and his handiwork creates long threads, angst, and grinding teeth.

Watching from afar, however, can be humorous...

Well I guess Albie is out of the closet. Is your partner, swa/fo okay with this?

 

[The Victors]

I know this has been beaten to death but this the first time I've read SWA management mention it. Not a good sign for all airlines if true.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/sky/2008/01/southwest.html

Believe me you dont want to wish for swa pilots to take a pay cut. They are the only group in the passenger airlines holding the line of what pilots should be making.

 

[BOYCAPTAIN]

His ability to push some folks' buttons is nothing less than pure performance art. He is a rare and talented artist, and his handiwork creates long threads, angst, and grinding teeth.

Watching from afar, however, can be humorous...

hey albie..he is just a dope!

 

[Yahtzee]

Who is swa/fo?

Does anyone besides swa/fo really know that he is a SWA FO? It wouldn't be like someone to impersonate on this forum now would it? Every pilot and FA I fly with any more is extremely thankful AND humble!

 

[ivauir]

Every few months an article like this comes out some one rejoices that SWA/FO will finally get his.

The fuel hedges have been key to our profitability for quite some time now. This is not news.

I hope that AA and others can get an industry leading contract really soon so that we can be out of the cross hairs.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well good luck to you. It gets nausiating to see some who come on here bragging about their pay. Yet their pay is a fraction of what the legacies used to make. Maybe Southwest is the flavor of the month and I wish continued success. I hope they get pay raises in their next contract. I have a feeling the "invincible" people working at southwest are in for a rude awakening however.

120%Tq.....what is your deal with Southwest and Skywest......You must hate companies that have managements who treat their people better than average and aren't ALPA.....I know you left Skywest....where did you go?

 

[120% Torque]

120%Tq.....what is your deal with Southwest and Skywest......You must hate companies that have managements who treat their people better than average and aren't ALPA.....I know you left Skywest....where did you go?

Cockiness and naivety are pilot attributes I do not admire. These are found in larger abundance at the aforementioned airlines than most others. I have friends at both these operations who are good, sophisticated, humble people. Unfortunately there are getting to be more and more of the other kind.

 

[murano]

Cockiness and naivety are pilot attributes I do not admire. These are found in larger abundance at the aforementioned airlines than most others. I have friends at both these operations who are good, sophisticated, humble people. Unfortunately there are getting to be more and more of the other kind.

Answered like a true politician...

 

[JoeMerchant]

Cockiness and naivety are pilot attributes I do not admire. These are found in larger abundance at the aforementioned airlines than most others. I have friends at both these operations who are good, sophisticated, humble people. Unfortunately there are getting to be more and more of the other kind.

You will find a high position for yourself in Herndon.....In addition to your allegiance to ALPA and hatred of Southwest and Skywest.....You know how to dodge questions.....

Who do you work for now? If "Cockiness and naivety are pilot attributes you don't admire".....then I hope you don't work for Delta, United, American, or Northwest....They wrote the book on cockiness.....

In fact, ALPA has fallen victim to cockiness and it is biting them in the A$$ every day.....

 

[DIAMONDDD]

Perhaps you've never met the infamous swa/fo!

737

swa/fo is to SWA as
General Lee is to DAL.

 

[General Lee]

swa/fo is to SWA as
General Lee is to DAL.

Hey, don't group me in with a tool like SWA/FO. I back up my claims with facts, baby! But it is amusing watching the SWA pilots get all crazy when someone actually says they wouldn't want to do their type of flying. You know---the 737 only, multiple leg days, with 25 minute turns, with the CHANCE of going to a hole like LBB or MAF type flying. No thanks, but I do think SWA is a great company overall! And if guys over there like it, well good for them. Ciao.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ron burgundy]

Boils down to this! My company is better....my watch is bigger...I hope brand-x goes under...have you seen my house? The car I drive? I buy the F/A's drinks to make me look like a "big airline Captain"....we'll staple 'em...my penis is smaller and I "try" to compensate for it by posting inane bull$ll_ on FI. There was that ONE post,in some thread,in one of the forums,that was of substance. I feel like I am pretending to listen to the F/A's about what britney spears is doing today. WHAT ..excuse me....oh god,this just can't be....got it....thanks mark......This just in...Heath Ledger---Still dead!

 

[AlbieF15]

Does anyone besides swa/fo really know that he is a SWA FO? It wouldn't be like someone to impersonate on this forum now would it? Every pilot and FA I fly with any more is extremely thankful AND humble!

C'mon bro...I thought he WAS your alter ego!

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Hey, don't group me in with a tool like SWA/FO. I back up my claims with facts, baby! But it is amusing watching the SWA pilots get all crazy when someone actually says they wouldn't want to do their type of flying. You know---the 737 only, multiple leg days, with 25 minute turns, with the CHANCE of going to a hole like LBB or MAF type flying.
Bye Bye--General Lee

:laugh::laugh:

GL... you do crack me up... keep up the good work my friend!

LBB... sorry... (yes, I've been there many moons ago) but on this point the General is correct. In LBB, the locals think Folger's is a delicacy and in Vienna the locals use Folger's to clean their toilets. Two different perspectives I suppose.

All I know is that the coffee in Vienna is exquisite... the people friendly... and the city absolutely gorgeous. The usual crew rest in any midwest city is the same... typical downtown, usual restaurants, usual overpriced hotel/bar... boring beyond belief (sorry, but true). A good crew rest is a descent steak, a flying partner with a good personality/sense of humor, and reasonably priced beer. We've all been there/done that.

Introduce a foreign country, strange (but damn good) beer, more often than not good food (though not always!), and some awesome scenery (still and live) and suddenly an otherwise ordinary crew rest becomes fun... beyond the ordinary (at least in my humble opinion). From Sydney's Opera House to the Great Pyramids of Giza and everything in between we are fortunate as pilots to have the world at our fingertips... and to get paid to see all these sights to boot!

For those of you who have the opportunity to fly internationally, I highly encourage you to do so. The international arena offers a number of unique challenges (terrain, no radar, language, metric conversion, etc...) but if you've made it to the 121 level, it's NOT rocket science.

I'm fortunate to have had the opportunity to visit nearly half the countries on the planet... man there are some really dicked up places out there... but there are many really beautiful places as well. I think a keen understanding of this gas ball in space and its many peoples is enlightening and invaluable. Everyone's mileage varies on this one though I suppose.

A long-winded way of saying that if I stay at another "Holodome" in central Texas or eat another burger from "Chili's"... I think I'm gunna heave! uke:

BBB

 

[General Lee]

:laugh::laugh:

GL... you do crack me up... keep up the good work my friend!

LBB... sorry... (yes, I've been there many moons ago) but on this point the General is correct. In LBB, the locals think Folger's is a delicacy and in Vienna the locals use Folger's to clean their toilets. Two different perspectives I suppose.

All I know is that the coffee in Vienna is exquisite... the people friendly... and the city absolutely gorgeous. The usual crew rest in any midwest city is the same... typical downtown, usual restaurants, usual overpriced hotel/bar... boring beyond belief (sorry, but true). A good crew rest is a descent steak, a flying partner with a good personality/sense of humor, and reasonably priced beer. We've all been there/done that.

Introduce a foreign country, strange (but damn good) beer, more often than not good food (though not always!), and some awesome scenery (still and live) and suddenly an otherwise ordinary crew rest becomes fun... beyond the ordinary (at least in my humble opinion). From Sydney's Opera House to the Great Pyramids of Giza and everything in between we are fortunate as pilots to have the world at our fingertips... and to get paid to see all these sights to boot!

For those of you who have the opportunity to fly internationally, I highly encourage you to do so. The international arena offers a number of unique challenges (terrain, no radar, language, metric conversion, etc...) but if you've made it to the 121 level, it's NOT rocket science.

I'm fortunate to have had the opportunity to visit nearly half the countries on the planet... man there are some really dicked up places out there... but there are many really beautiful places as well. I think a keen understanding of this gas ball in space and its many peoples is enlightening and invaluable. Everyone's mileage varies on this one though I suppose.

A long-winded way of saying that if I stay at another "Holodome" in central Texas or eat another burger from "Chili's"... I think I'm gunna heave! uke:

BBB

Well thanks BBB. I don't dislike SWA by any means, I just personally wouldn't enjoy their type of flying. Some may love it, staying close to home, places that are "familiar." That's great. To some on this board, a layover is just a layover. That is too bad IMO. I like trying different things, and seeing different places. But with their great pay rates, I am sure that they can afford some trips to Europe even with the weak dollar, and they are always welcome on our jumpseats.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ASADFW7]

I have been at SWA less than two years. In my opinion it doesn't matter who you are when you take a job and start cashing paychecks, you do it for your family and you adjust your standard of living. As a previous CRJ pilot, I was tired of being almost there. Almost being able to buy a house, but knowing I would sell it when I got my next job, or the next base closure. I was tired of being asked when I was going to get a real job. Now that I am at SWA the standard of living is nice, and I suppose it is a real job now, debatable though. However no one else is going to pat me on the back for the years of flying to get to SWA. No one else cares that I bought a house that if I took a 30 percent paycut I would be scrambling to pay for. No one else cares but me.

In this industry when I was at a regional I watched almost every mainline pilot take a paycut. I did not exactly understand the pressure of that because I had never made more than 60K a year to date. Now that SWA pilots may be the next to feel the industry readjustment in pay. Many pilots who have been through it know exactly how that has felt. I did not go through that at ASA but know what it feels like to be almost there. Maybe SWA is almost there to not turning a profit? There are many pilots at SWA who like me are not complete jackasses. Partially yes, complete no.

I understand that a few of my fellow pilots may never have felt that pain of the working your way up, or falling backwards. It may happen, if it does there will be a lot of pain felt but our pilot group and the company in whole. It will not be pilots alone who shoulder the burden.

I like my job, I like the pay. I went after the job long before the pay increases. I go to work though for a paycheck, to support my family and pay my bills. I support my fellow pilots and the industry. In the end though I work in a crapy industry that eats their young. I know this, it sucks but that is the way it is. If SWA stumbles there are thousands of pilots who would like to gain, to get their 30 percent and more back. That is our reality. I am going to work hard to see SWA not stumble. Not to hurt the industry but to protect my job, my company and quality of life. I did the same thing at ASA even when it was a leaky boat.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[whymeworry?]

Good for SW.

For the sake of the survival of our profession, let the playing field be leveled.

This is not a slight against SWA pilot. I respect you guys and gals and I can only wish I were compensated at your level. But we alll need to acknowledge the lack of substantive fare increases has served to subsidize the travel needs of the ever-demanding public.

There is no reason on earth why the public should fly for less than the cost of said seat on any given flight.

SWA mgmt saw this coming long ago so they had plenty of time to prepare. Time for fare to go up AND STAY UP.

 

[Mach 80]

>>>>Introduce a foreign country, ....<<<

I guess someone made him take it down, but anyone know if that excellent video of the AA crew trip and layover in Paris is still on the internet anywhere?

 

[mdf]

Cockiness and naivety are pilot attributes I do not admire. These are found in larger abundance at the aforementioned airlines than most others. I have friends at both these operations who are good, sophisticated, humble people. Unfortunately there are getting to be more and more of the other kind.

Would like to put down your dictionary, and back this up some data?

 

[mdf]

Would like to put down your dictionary, and back this up some data?

Woops!


Would you like to put down your dictionary, and back this up with some data?

 

[YourPilotFriend]

The difference between SWA and the other airlines, is that SWA management will take the pay cut with the pilots.

 

[tico]

SWA may struggle with profitability at some point...But at least if and when it comes and if the company ever have to ask for help from their people, they will know it is not for the reasons that the rest of us have had to take it in the a$$.....That airline has figured out how to run an airline.....When I have large productivity breaks in the terminal I like to position myself where I can watch them at work.......It is an awesome sight......no one runs, no one races around....they just methodically turn a 737 in 15-20 minutes...beacon off to beacon on..... the people that work there are expected to give a good hard days work and they are paid for it.........They are firm and fair and that is all you can ask out of an employer.... if it comes down to a full on blood bath, they will be the last ones standing....I would be proud to serve in that unit and if they would ever hire pilots from AS, I would turn in the left seat tomorrow and go to work there........Face it, they are from top to bottom better at this game then all the rest of us sorry losers put together........