Could JetBlue be next?

canyonblue

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There will always be a few, like the guys you spoke with, that thought they got F'd in the merger. All you have to do is tell then to read the award written by the 3 arbitrators, they give their reasons.


Bye Bye---General Lee

It's been more than a few guys junior. Their beef is the way the panel came down with the SLI. The two sides were not equal as far as seniority, due to the fact that most DAL pilots bailed to get the Lump Sum fearing a loss of their retirement. This unloaded a huge number of senior pilots and gave the ones who remained a super seniority boost. When compared against the NWA list it matched DAL pilots right along NWA pilots. Never mind the fact that they gained that seniority in a quick sweeping moment. Hey, I don't work at either airline, but that's the common complaint I've heard from the former NWA guys. You just might not want to hear it.
 

canyonblue

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Your CEO and your pilot group thought your's was fair, hence the problem and lack of "LUV" with your merger.

There was one other pilot group that also voted it in, 8 out of every 10. I guess it's just the 2 out of 10 that show up here.
 

Dan Roman

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There was one other pilot group that also voted it in, 8 out of every 10. I guess it's just the 2 out of 10 that show up here.

Canyon, with all due respect, I think that's a very odd perspective to say they voted it in so they must be happy about it??? We all know they voted it in after "Gary" used Lorenzo like strong arm tactics telling them if they didn't vote it in they would not be integrated. That would hardly mean they were happy about it.

Do you really think SWA did as equitable job at merging as DAL did?

I can tell you from an unbiased position that given a choice, I echo what anyone at HA would think and that we would much rather merge with DAL should that highly unlikely scenario happen than the way more unlikely SWA merger scenario happen. And no that's not SWA bashing, just because we don't want to merge with you or anyone else doesn't mean I dislike your respective airlines.
 
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General Lee

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Question for Gen nuts? Is Delta shrinking. I heard no new hires for the three years??

Gen nuts, huh? Ummmm, I think you're nuts. No, supposedly DL is about 400 pilots fat currently, so those pilots will be used to fill initial FO spots on the first 16 717s coming this year, in addition to 14 additional MD90s. There will also be the start of 100 new 739ERs, but those will replace one for one a batch of older 757s, A320s, and a few 767-300 domestic planes, all close to reaching the cycle limit. The next two years will bring 36 717s each, allowing for hiring supposedly, and combined with retirements, could mean a lot of upward movement, fast. All of the 3 legacies will have that happen.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 

General Lee

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Canyon, with all due respect, I think that's a very odd perspective to say they voted it in so they must be happy about it??? We all know they voted it in after "Gary" used Lorenzo like strong arm tactics telling them if they didn't vote it in they would not be integrated. That would hardly mean they were happy about it.

Do you really think SWA did as equitable job at merging as DAL did?

I can tell you from an unbiased position that given a choice, I echo what anyone at HA would think and that we would much rather merge with DAL should that highly unlikely scenario happen than the way more unlikely SWA merger scenario happen. And no that's not SWA bashing, just because we don't want to merge with you or anyone else doesn't mean I dislike your respective airlines.


Canyon, Dan wins this round. I'm sure some people may have happy, but the majority? On a separate note, did you know Hugo Chavez used to win his elections by overwhelming margins? They all looked so happy. Just sayin..... ;)



Bye Bye---General Lee
 

waveflyer

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it's dumb enough when those of us who work here still talk about this

really dumb when a couple of haters on the outside keep trying to drum up old crap

but hey, knock yourself out
 

General Lee

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it's dumb enough when those of us who work here still talk about this

really dumb when a couple of haters on the outside keep trying to drum up old crap

but hey, knock yourself out

I don't hate you guys, just sayin not everyone enjoyed your merger, regardless of the voting percentage Canyon offered.

Bye Bye---General Lee
 

canyonblue

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On a separate note, did you know Hugo Chavez used to win his elections by overwhelming margins? They all looked so happy. Just sayin..... ;)



Bye Bye---General Lee

So you're comparing the AirTran pilots to the Venezuelans?
 

Griswold

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JetBlue could be good for DALPA and ATL based guys.
DALPA can step up and show what a non union SLI looks like.
We get a FLL base. There is a ton of MCO, PBI, MIA commuters. Just like new hires with a new base.
 

Dan Roman

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it's dumb enough when those of us who work here still talk about this

really dumb when a couple of haters on the outside keep trying to drum up old crap

but hey, knock yourself out

Wave I hate to say this dude because I like a lot of your posts, but.....I popped in because a SWA guy posted about buying Hawaiian and you expanded on it, it grew from from there. I'm not a SWA "hater"
 

waveflyer

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Wave I hate to say this dude because I like a lot of your posts, but.....I popped in because a SWA guy posted about buying Hawaiian and you expanded on it, it grew from from there. I'm not a SWA "hater"

Ditto. I respect you. But you aren't being honest about being a hater.

If Hawaiian had bought AT at the same time, you would have made every argument (widebodies) to have a SLI slanted in your favor- even though they were the larger, more profitable carrier.

Pilots from other carriers pile on here, bc it's popular to hate on SWA- the contradictions industry wide are amazing- literally came out of the mouth of a captain I flew with at my old legacy: "SWA has been the worst thing for the industry" "it's pretty sad when southwest treats us better than our company does" said about 10 minutes apart

It's a flat out pipe dream that ANY other carrier would have treated AT employees better than SWA has. It's dishonest.

It's also dishonest to think that an arbitrator would have awarded a list better for AT pilots than the list we got.

Where do you think the company got the list they used?

Sat around a BBQ and figured it out themselves?

No, they hired merger consultants, former arbitrators, and formulated what they predicted an arbitrator would do- that's what they did.

they wanted the list EXPEDITED so that the battle wouldn't rage for years on end, disrupt the merger, negatively affect the culture, and set a bad example for the other unions. IE: they were protecting their investment by being pro-active. we can argue the merits of that, but its what they do and they communicated it clearly. We were asked to take the lead in this merger and AGREE to a list without going to arbitration- AT wasn't cooperating with that. From the outset they were playing games, and had no motivation to facilitate everything in a smooth manner. No AT pilot will tell you that their union was a well oiled, unified force for good in this. It was neaurotic as all hell- defying mgmt requests many times along the way, while swapa was cooperating and going about professionally in representing our interests.

Arbitration is a legal right that senators bond and mccaskill came up with in response to TWA- it isn't what the CEO wanted and he verbalized that clearly. He wanted the pilots to lead, set an example as the most consequential seniority list in the company- so that every group didn't feel the need to take their lists all the way to a long drawn out arbitration- agK is the CEO, and that's the way he wanted to lead this company- Or do you think that govt ought to be that hands on in union matters of private companies?

So rewrite history all you want Dan- there is not another pilot group who would've treated AT any better than we have. Not one.

I dare you to say there is, but we all know you don't believe it.
 

ASA_Aviator

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For what its worth, It isn't necessarily contradictory to say "SW is the worst thing to happen..." And then say, "It's sad SW treats us better than our own company." In fact, they align. (It's sad that the worst thing to happen to the industry treats us better than our own company.)
 

redflyer65

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Ditto. I respect you. But you aren't being honest about being a hater.

If Hawaiian had bought AT at the same time, you would have made every argument (widebodies) to have a SLI slanted in your favor- even though they were the larger, more profitable carrier.

Pilots from other carriers pile on here, bc it's popular to hate on SWA- the contradictions industry wide are amazing- literally came out of the mouth of a captain I flew with at my old legacy: "SWA has been the worst thing for the industry" "it's pretty sad when southwest treats us better than our company does" said about 10 minutes apart

It's a flat out pipe dream that ANY other carrier would have treated AT employees better than SWA has. It's dishonest.

It's also dishonest to think that an arbitrator would have awarded a list better for AT pilots than the list we got.

Where do you think the company got the list they used?

Sat around a BBQ and figured it out themselves?

No, they hired merger consultants, former arbitrators, and formulated what they predicted an arbitrator would do- that's what they did.

they wanted the list EXPEDITED so that the battle wouldn't rage for years on end, disrupt the merger, negatively affect the culture, and set a bad example for the other unions. IE: they were protecting their investment by being pro-active. we can argue the merits of that, but its what they do and they communicated it clearly. We were asked to take the lead in this merger and AGREE to a list without going to arbitration- AT wasn't cooperating with that. From the outset they were playing games, and had no motivation to facilitate everything in a smooth manner. No AT pilot will tell you that their union was a well oiled, unified force for good in this. It was neaurotic as all hell- defying mgmt requests many times along the way, while swapa was cooperating and going about professionally in representing our interests.

Arbitration is a legal right that senators bond and mccaskill came up with in response to TWA- it isn't what the CEO wanted and he verbalized that clearly. He wanted the pilots to lead, set an example as the most consequential seniority list in the company- so that every group didn't feel the need to take their lists all the way to a long drawn out arbitration- agK is the CEO, and that's the way he wanted to lead this company- Or do you think that govt ought to be that hands on in union matters of private companies?

So rewrite history all you want Dan- there is not another pilot group who would've treated AT any better than we have. Not one.

I dare you to say there is, but we all know you don't believe it.

Bravo. Well stated in every regard.
 

SWA Bubba

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By the way, I'm not just pulling this stuff out of my okole. I've seen articles were the head of the Hawaii visitors bureau has talked about the importance of Hawaiian to Hawaii. I've seen analysts say no one regions fortunes are as strongly tied together as Hawaii is to Hawaiian. Even the President of ALPA made a statement to the press here saying how important an independent Hawaiian Air is to Hawaii (sorry General!).


Actually, I'm with Dan here. I watch Hawaii Five-O every week, and they push Hawaiian Airlines on a lot of episodes. Heck, it's even featured predominantly in the opening credits! If SWA bought Hawaiian, they'd have to cancel the damn show. No way the locals allow that.

Anyway, Dan- I think you took somebody's bait too seriously. I agree that there's no way a SWA-Hawaiian matchup would work for the reasons you mentioned earlier about no realistic tie-in with our operating model. On the other hand, it was probably most likely a joke in the first place, rather than a serious suggestion.

Bubba

P.S. By the way, I went to Hawaii on vacation recently, and flew over on Hawaiian. I was going to go up to the flight deck and shout, "Screw you Dan Roman! Southwest rulz!" But then I noticed it was a B767 instead of a A330, so it probably wouldn't have been you. Instead of a good laugh, I probably would have just received an escort off the airplane and into a drunk tank somewhere.
 
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dicko

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Ditto. I respect you. But you aren't being honest about being a hater.

If Hawaiian had bought AT at the same time, you would have made every argument (widebodies) to have a SLI slanted in your favor- even though they were the larger, more profitable carrier.

Pilots from other carriers pile on here, bc it's popular to hate on SWA- the contradictions industry wide are amazing- literally came out of the mouth of a captain I flew with at my old legacy: "SWA has been the worst thing for the industry" "it's pretty sad when southwest treats us better than our company does" said about 10 minutes apart

It's a flat out pipe dream that ANY other carrier would have treated AT employees better than SWA has. It's dishonest.

It's also dishonest to think that an arbitrator would have awarded a list better for AT pilots than the list we got.

Where do you think the company got the list they used?

Sat around a BBQ and figured it out themselves?

No, they hired merger consultants, former arbitrators, and formulated what they predicted an arbitrator would do- that's what they did.

they wanted the list EXPEDITED so that the battle wouldn't rage for years on end, disrupt the merger, negatively affect the culture, and set a bad example for the other unions. IE: they were protecting their investment by being pro-active. we can argue the merits of that, but its what they do and they communicated it clearly. We were asked to take the lead in this merger and AGREE to a list without going to arbitration- AT wasn't cooperating with that. From the outset they were playing games, and had no motivation to facilitate everything in a smooth manner. No AT pilot will tell you that their union was a well oiled, unified force for good in this. It was neaurotic as all hell- defying mgmt requests many times along the way, while swapa was cooperating and going about professionally in representing our interests.

Arbitration is a legal right that senators bond and mccaskill came up with in response to TWA- it isn't what the CEO wanted and he verbalized that clearly. He wanted the pilots to lead, set an example as the most consequential seniority list in the company- so that every group didn't feel the need to take their lists all the way to a long drawn out arbitration- agK is the CEO, and that's the way he wanted to lead this company- Or do you think that govt ought to be that hands on in union matters of private companies?

So rewrite history all you want Dan- there is not another pilot group who would've treated AT any better than we have. Not one.

I dare you to say there is, but we all know you don't believe it.


Possibly the most intellectually dishonest and delusional post I've ever read. What's next for you Wave ? Are you going to start removing history books from the schools and 'amending' them ?
 

General Lee

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So you're comparing the AirTran pilots to the Venezuelans?

No, just giving historical perspective. The use of strong armed tactics is NEVER good in any negotiation or election. That would be bad if used at any airline, too. Have a great day!


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
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redflyer65

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Possibly the most intellectually dishonest and delusional post I've ever read. What's next for you Wave ? Are you going to start removing history books from the schools and 'amending' them ?

Says the guy who expected DOH and a 50% payraise.

The arbitor most likely would have made the list worse for those at AAI. The most recent decisions bare this out for all to see. Welcome to reality.
 

Dan Roman

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Actually, I'm with Dan here. I watch Hawaii Five-O every week, and they push Hawaiian Airlines on a lot of episodes. Heck, it's even featured predominantly in the opening credits! If SWA bought Hawaiian, they'd have to cancel the damn show. No way the locals allow that.

Anyway, Dan- I think you took somebody's bait too seriously. I agree that there's no way a SWA-Hawaiian matchup would work for the reasons you mentioned earlier about no realistic tie-in with our operating model. On the other hand, it was probably most likely a joke in the first place, rather than a serious suggestion.

Bubba

P.S. By the way, I went to Hawaii on vacation recently, and flew over on Hawaiian. I was going to go up to the flight deck and shout, "Screw you Dan Roman! Southwest rulz!" But then I noticed it was a B767 instead of a A330, so it probably wouldn't have been you. Instead of a good laugh, I probably would have just received an escort off the airplane and into a drunk tank somewhere.

That would have been pretty classic...and I would have welcomed you wholeheartedly! BTW even Dunkerly had a cameo on the show!

I do plead guilty to being overprotective of what we have here.
 

Dan Roman

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Ditto. I respect you. But you aren't being honest about being a hater.

If Hawaiian had bought AT at the same time, you would have made every argument (widebodies) to have a SLI slanted in your favor- even though they were the larger, more profitable carrier.

Pilots from other carriers pile on here, bc it's popular to hate on SWA- the contradictions industry wide are amazing- literally came out of the mouth of a captain I flew with at my old legacy: "SWA has been the worst thing for the industry" "it's pretty sad when southwest treats us better than our company does" said about 10 minutes apart

It's a flat out pipe dream that ANY other carrier would have treated AT employees better than SWA has. It's dishonest.

It's also dishonest to think that an arbitrator would have awarded a list better for AT pilots than the list we got.

Where do you think the company got the list they used?

Sat around a BBQ and figured it out themselves?

No, they hired merger consultants, former arbitrators, and formulated what they predicted an arbitrator would do- that's what they did.

they wanted the list EXPEDITED so that the battle wouldn't rage for years on end, disrupt the merger, negatively affect the culture, and set a bad example for the other unions. IE: they were protecting their investment by being pro-active. we can argue the merits of that, but its what they do and they communicated it clearly. We were asked to take the lead in this merger and AGREE to a list without going to arbitration- AT wasn't cooperating with that. From the outset they were playing games, and had no motivation to facilitate everything in a smooth manner. No AT pilot will tell you that their union was a well oiled, unified force for good in this. It was neaurotic as all hell- defying mgmt requests many times along the way, while swapa was cooperating and going about professionally in representing our interests.

Arbitration is a legal right that senators bond and mccaskill came up with in response to TWA- it isn't what the CEO wanted and he verbalized that clearly. He wanted the pilots to lead, set an example as the most consequential seniority list in the company- so that every group didn't feel the need to take their lists all the way to a long drawn out arbitration- agK is the CEO, and that's the way he wanted to lead this company- Or do you think that govt ought to be that hands on in union matters of private companies?

So rewrite history all you want Dan- there is not another pilot group who would've treated AT any better than we have. Not one.

I dare you to say there is, but we all know you don't believe it.

I don't agree with you Wave, but it was very good job of putting your perspective out there. To little time to go all the way through it, but I'll give you an example of were I'm coming from. Your comment indicating "our" widebody flying would be on the table says it all. We wouldn't and shouldn't give that up as well as all the inter-island flying. That's what we bring to the table.
 
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