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Could Dalpa ask for NWALPA 70 seat plan?

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avrodriverj85 said:
This is the kind of atitude that is getting us in trouble - "hopefully we can get a job thru flowthru, if we bend over - AGAIN".
I disagree. It is not a matter of us bending over again. NW pilots own all the flying above 56 seats. It would be nice if we could do all the 70 seat flying but it is not ours. Such is the life of a contractor like XJ is for NW.

avrodriverj85 said:
But don't feel too bad, our MEC leadership is going to shove it right up our ass and call it a victory for the XJ pilots. Just like they did when they TA'd that turd of a contract back in Jan.
I agree with you on this though. I voted no but unfortunately I was in the minority and a lot of it had to with the MEC putting on the pom poms and cheering the team to victory.
 
~~~^~~~ said:
Wrong. The RJDC lawsuit was filed within the statute of limitations for the changes from the 96 PWA to the c2K PWA.

So yes, there is going to be discussion and may very well be a trial, with lots O' discussin going on.

Compressed into a 90 minute presentation - it is easy to see that ALPA, at the direction of a preferred group of members, arbitrarily moved the scope limit, and now is in the process of taking those jobs from their non-preferred members. /QUOTE]



A union breaches its duty of fair representation if its actions "can fairly be characterized as so far outside a 'wide range of reasonableness' . . . that [they are] wholly 'arbitrary, discriminatory, or in bad faith.'" O'Neill, 499 U.S. at 67 (quotation omitted). Judicial review of union action, however, "'must be highly deferential, recognizing the wide latitude that [unions] need for the effective performance of their bargaining responsibilities.'" Gvozdenovic v. United Air Lines, Inc., 933 F.2d 1100, 1106 (2d Cir. 1991) (quoting O'Neill, 499 U.S. at 67).


A union's reasoned decision to support the interests of one group of employees over the competing interests of another group does not constitute arbitrary conduct. See, e.g., Haerum v. Air Line Pilots Ass'n, Int'l, 892 F.2d 216, 221 (2d Cir. 1989); Jones v. Trans World Airlines, Inc., 495 F.2d 790, 798 (2d Cir. 1974).



Fins, you are now dismissed from class.
 
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FDJ2 said:
The Delta annual report lists both ASA and CMR as contract carriers.

"We have contractual arrangements with six regional carriers to operate regional jet and turboprop aircraft using our “DL” code. ASA and Comair are our wholly-owned subsidiaries, which operate all of their flights under our code. We also have agreements with Atlantic Coast Airlines (“ACA”), SkyWest Airlines, Inc. (“SkyWest”), Chautauqua Airlines, Inc. (“Chautauqua”) and American Eagle Airlines, Inc. (“Eagle”), which operate some of their flights using our code."

You just happen to be a wholly owned contract carrier, whereas the others are not.
By that definition, mainline is a contract carrier, i.e. "we have a contract, and we fly for Delta Inc.". And for that matter, DGS is a contract ground service organization, and GG's secretary is a contract administrative employee.

You are just a contract carrier, wholly owned as well.
 
FDJ2,

If I'm not mistaken those are the same case histories that ALPA's lawyers used in arguing their motion for summary judgement and dismissal of the litigation. Last I heard, their motion was denied by the judge. They also argued that the court was without jurisdiction. That arguement was also denied. Then they argued that the suit was without merit. That argument was denied.

Please go back to Cohen & Weiss for more current information on their next legal manuever. As of now, the case is going to trial and will be heard by a jury. Perhaps you can help C&W to come up with something "new" prior to that time. It seems the need all the legal help they can get.
 
skiddriver said:
By that definition, mainline is a contract carrier.
No, mainline Delta is Delta Air Lines, it is not a wholly owned subsidiary. Delta pilots are employees of Delta Air Lines, Inc, not a wholly owned subsidiary.
 
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surplus1 said:
FDJ2,

If I'm not mistaken those are the same case histories that ALPA's lawyers used in arguing their motion for summary judgement and dismissal of the litigation. Last I heard, their motion was denied by the judge. They also argued that the court was without jurisdiction. That arguement was also denied. Then they argued that the suit was without merit. That argument was denied. QUOTE]

Surplus, as I'm sure you are aware the RJDC presented 10 claims, of which 9 were denied and summarily thrown out of court prior to any discovery, six of those RJDC claims were deemed such fabrications that no possible evidence produced by the RJDC could support their claims.

Surplus, you are probably also aware that the judge only ruled that he had subject matter jurisdiction over the last remaining claim and that he made no ruling on the merits of the RJDC claim as you insinuate. Nice try though.

Now it is up top the RJDC to actually prove that ALPA acted in a manner that is so arbitrary that it was irrational. Given the wide latitude unions are afforded by the courts and the reluctance the courts have in second guessing a unions judgment on such matters, you have your work cut out for you in your efforts to eliminate ALPA scope clauses, which is after all part of what you are asking for in the relief section of your lawsuit.
 
FDJ2 said:
No, mainline Delta is Delta Air Lines, it is not a wholly owned subsidiary. Delta pilots are employees of Delta Air Lines, Inc, not a wholly owned subsidiary.
And Comair and ASA employees are employees of a wholly-owned subsidiary, not a contractor. There is a clear difference in law.

CONTRACTOR. One who enters into a contract this term is usually applied to persons who undertake to do public work, or the work for a company or corporation on a large scale, at a certain fixed price, or to furnish goods to another at a fixed or ascertained price.

SUBSIDIARY. Any corporation, partnership, association or legal entity, however organized, which is owned or controlled by another person. In accounting, a company whose voting stock is more that 50% owned by another company.

But if it helps you feel good about yourself, please feel free to maintain the self-deception.
 
Well, I gambled a little and it paid off. You have responded almost exactly as I expected you would.

=FDJ2
Surplus, as I'm sure you are aware the RJDC presented 10 claims, of which 9 were denied and summarily thrown out of court prior to any discovery, six of those RJDC claims were deemed such fabrications that no possible evidence produced by the RJDC could support their claims.


Read the judge's opinion again. He never said that any claim was a fabrication, those are your words, born of your frustration. He dismissed 9 claims, not because the were without merit but because they were all an integral part of the DFR claim, which he found meritorious, and did not need to be treated separately. Win the DFR and you win all the others. Additionally, he recommended that the litigation be expanded into a Class Action suit (which it was) over ALPA's objections. He also made the implication that the DFR claims were not limited to the "wholly owned subsidiary" scenario, but also affected the sub-contractors represented by the ALPA. You can spin it all you want, but the facts remains the same. ALPA's arguments were rejected by the court.

Surplus, you are probably also aware that the judge only ruled that he had subject matter jurisdiction over the last remaining claim and that he made no ruling on the merits of the RJDC claim as you insinuate. Nice try though.
The judge could not make a ruling "on the merits" since they were not at issue and were not being tried. ALPA's argument was that there were no merits and the case should be dismissed. The judge ruled that there WAS merit and the case would have to be heard, on the merits. It is not I who tries to "insinuate", it is you.

The "merits" of a case are never heard as part of a motion to dismiss or for summary judgement. The "merits" are heard in a trial, and that is what we are going to have, unless of course ALPA comes to its senses and settles.

Now it is up top the RJDC to actually prove that ALPA acted in a manner that is so arbitrary that it was irrational. Given the wide latitude unions are afforded by the courts and the reluctance the courts have in second guessing a unions judgment on such matters, you have your work cut out for you in your efforts to eliminate ALPA scope clauses, which is after all part of what you are asking for in the relief section of your lawsuit.
It has always been up to the RJDC to prove that ALPA violated its Duty of Fair Representation and that is exactly what will be done, in court, not it this forum. Incidentally, ALPA will have to prove that it did not breach its duty. Since with each passing day ALPA adds more fuel to its own pyre it will be interesting, to say the least, to see how the try to quell the flames in the courtroom.

It is no secret at all that DFR cases are among the most difficult to prove. You haven't "discovered" anything and you are not "revealing" anything, we knew that going in. Like you, ALPA thought it could hang its hat on that difficulty and get away with murder. They were confident that the whole thing would just be dismissed and they would get their way and be able to shaft their own members once more. They were wrong. This time, they will have to answer for their actions.

You may want to imply and you have tried to infer that ALPA wins all of its DFR litigation. The fact is they do not. They have lost before and will lose again this time. It's not a coincidence that their last "loss" also involved your pilot group's shenanagins which ultimately cost millions. If they insist on losing this one, it will cost many more millions.

The courts do have a reluctance in second guessing a union's judgement, but they have no problem at all condemning a union's failure to exercise any judgement at all or to violate blatantly its duty to its members. In case you are uncertain as to the definition of condemning, here it is: 1 : to declare to be reprehensible, wrong, or evil usually after weighing evidence and without reservation.

You and ALPA apparently think that your money and your power give you largess to trample on the rights of those members against whom you chose to descriminate. Well, you're both wrong. ALPA has crossed the line and violated its fiduciary responsibilities to certain of the membership, and it is by no means limited to Comair and ASA pilots. It is time that the courts intervene to correct the errors to which you fein blindness. They will.

Normal scope clauses will not be eliminated. What will be eliminated is ALPA's (at with it yours) ability to act as a predator against its own with impunity. That part of your "scope clause" violates the law and it needs to be eliminated and thrown out with the rest of your garbage. Our union has no right to permit you to negotiate our work nor to limit it without our consent. Your continuous efforts to do so will be estopped.

I don't give a hoot if it deflates your supercilious egos for they deserve to be deflated. So yes, we are asking for the reversal of your predatory scope clauses and the rest of those that emulate them.

You are well aware of what you all (ALPA) have been trying to do. You're angry because you've been caught with your hands in the cookie jar and you've been confronted by a group of people that are not afraid of your threats or your political power. You are not accustomed to being told that you're wrong and you don't like it. Well you are wrong, so get used to being told.

ALPA's behavior in this and similar instances stinks to high heaven. It needs to be exposed for what it is, and the country club that you and your peers have developed in Herndon needs to be restored to the status of a labor union that represents and protects impartially and equally the rights of ALL of its members. The rotten apples must be removed from the barrell and the Air Line Pilots Association restored to its traditional position. Anyone who loses their usurped power in the process is deserving of the loss. If you are at all confused as to who that is, it is you and those who think like you.

The era of the Plantation and the "Big House" is ending. I am not sorry if that displeases you. You'll have to adjust.
 
surplus1 said:
Well, I gambled a little and it paid off. You have responded almost exactly as I expected you would.

[/color]

Read the judge's opinion again. He never said that any claim was a fabrication, those are your words, born of your frustration. He dismissed 9 claims, not because the were without merit but because they were all an integral part of the DFR claim, which he found meritorious, and did not need to be treated separately.
Surplus, spin all you want, but in 6 out of 10 claims, the fact is that the judge found that Dan Ford and his cronies claimed that ALPA failed to respond to their grievance, which the judge noted that ALPA did, then Dan Ford claimed that he didn't mean failed to respond to a grievance, but rather failed to take disciplinary action against ALPA officers, but the Judge noted that the RJDC never specified who should be disciplined, or for what etc. At the end of the day, 6 claims which sought monetary damage were tossed out because no set of facts could possibly prove what the RJDC was claiming. In tossing out these claims on this summary motion for dismissal the judge has to assume all facts and inferences in favor of the plaintiffs, even given this high standard, the judge determined that 6 claims were so frivolous and so lacking that no possible findings in discovery could support them. The RJDC got thouroughly spanked having all their monetary claims summarily dismissed last summer even before discovery.

Your statement that the judge found the DFR claim meritorious is laughable at face value, since the judge made no findings on merit, but only determined that he had subject matter jursdiction on hearing these claims and that he would hear arguments on the merits only after discovery.

The judicial standard for succeeding in a DFR case is that the plaintiff must prove that the defendant action were arbitrary, discriminatory or in bad faith. But that is only the half of it, then you have to prove that you actually suffered damages. Given the fact that CMR was recently denied growth aircraft, not because of ALPA scope, but rather because of its non competitive cost structure, it is apparent that any relaxation of scope does not directly lead to more growth for CMR, making damages harder to prove.

I can understand your need to spin, particularly given the weakness of your case. Which is a good thing, since your lawsuit would eliminate all ALPA scope clauses and contribute to the race to the bottom.
 
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Fdj2

My friend you have the last word. See ya in court.
 
skiddriver said:
And Comair and ASA employees are employees of a wholly-owned subsidiary, not a contractor. There is a clear difference in law.
And a wholly owned company can compete against contractors for contract work. The Delta RFP comes to mind and shows that sometimes the WO can fail to be competitive and do not get the contract.
 
FDJ2 said:
And a wholly owned company can compete against contractors for contract work. The Delta RFP comes to mind and shows that sometimes the WO can fail to be competitive and do not get the contract.
Couldn't agree more. Company owned operations are going to have to compete with outside enitites both in head-to-head competitions for flying and against pay scales set by their peers.

And Comair wasn't the only airline owned by Delta Inc. that didn't get any flying out of the RFP. Can you think what the other one might be?
 
FDJ2 said:
No, mainline Delta is Delta Air Lines, it is not a wholly owned subsidiary. Delta pilots are employees of Delta Air Lines, Inc, not a wholly owned subsidiary.
What is your point here?
 
DAL737FO said:
This doesn't even require an discussion. The connection airlines are capped at 57 total 70 seat RJ's period. If Delta wants to fly more then they need to come to DALPA for relief from that section.
Or simply file for bankruptcy and force the issue down DALPA's throat. Care to wager what management's strategy is?

BOHICA.
 
skiddriver said:
And Comair wasn't the only airline owned by Delta Inc. that didn't get any flying out of the RFP. Can you think what the other one might be?
Well if you mean the mainline, I agree we haven't got any of the RJ flying yet. Delta is able to find cheaper labor elsehwere. But you are mistaken if you think that the mainline is "owned" by Delta Air Lines, Inc., because the mainline is Delta Air Lines, Inc., it is not a wholly owned subsidiary like AA is to AMR.
 

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