Corporate vs Airlines

[Bally]

Has anyone worked both sides of the fence?

I have been in the SWA pool for over a year, and hope to be invited to a class this year. I have spent my entire aviation career as a corporate pilot. I am considering giving up a fairly good paying stable corporate position for the airlines, with the illusion that working for a major will provide me and my family a better overall quality of life.

While I will be taking a significnat pay cut, the quality of life issue seems to far outweigh the compensation.

I would appreciate any feedback to what it's really like flying at a major airline, and/or SWA in particular.

The following represents how the sky looks in my world. Please let me know if I am seeing the other side as greener than it really is.

Thanks!!!

Pros of Corporate:

Flying all over the world often to challenging airports like Telluride, CO or Lima Peru. Although I have been a corporate aviator for over 13 years, many of my trips are to places that I have never been to. The flying rearly gets boring.

Being 100% in-charge of the trip. When you launch, it is up to you to ensure that the flight planning is accurate, enough fuel is on-board, you can get fuel at places like Luxor Egypt (was there last week, cost me my favorite Univ. of Michigan sweat shirt to get fuel). Never a dull moment.

If you do get layed off or fired (corporate generally does not have furloughs) there are hundreds of other companies with flight departments. It is much easier for someone with a strong corporate background to find another job within the industry. Not true for a layed off airline pilot trying to break into corporate flying.

Cons of Corporate:

Very few companies have a fixed schedule. It does get old to have your trip cancelled or created one hour prior to blast off. Especially when flying overseas.

The best path for a good salary in corporate aviation is to fly "the big iron", like the Boeing Business Jet, Gulfstream V, or Global Express. These aircraft have a 6,500+ nm range which translates into long trips. Last month I was gone 28 days. Generally speaking, the bigger the jet, the bigger your suitcase.

I am a PIC on a Boeing Bus Jet. The max pay at my Company (a Fortune 500 Corp.) is $150K plus 401K and standard health benifits. I believe this to be rather stadard in the industry.

No union protection. Although I have worked for the same company for nine years (great company by the way), I have seen pilots get fired because the passenger did not like the pilots landings. This is less true at a Fortune 500 Corp where we have a Human Resources Dept. Small operators can be difficult since you are literally at the mercy of the personality of the "boss". I was terminated from my first corporate job because I was was not comfortable schlepping to the specialty dog store before each trip to get the boss's dog her favorite dog biscuits. While I am the first one eager to ensure that the passengers are comfortable, this became rediculous and intererred with my duties as the PIC. I was also requried to drive to the boss's house to pick-up the luggage. Flying the airplane was a minor part of the job.

We often stay at a one place for many days while the passengers are conducting business. When I was single, this was a blast. I would now rather fly when I am at work than stay in a hotel. While it is nice to be on a beach in the French Riviera for five days, if you are not with your family, the novalty wears off.

Pros of Airline:

SCHEDULE SCHEDULE SCHEDULE

While I really like the folks I fly with, it does get a bit boring flyng with the same crew year after year. It seems the diversity of people you fly with at the airlines would be interesting.

Knowing when you are going to be home!!!

Percieved Cons of an Airline:

Is the flying boring?

I heard that at certain airlines, the employees are very negative. Northing worse than working at a company where the company culture is to b--itch and moan all the time.

Thanks again for your help!

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I am considering giving up a fairly good paying stable corporate position for the airlines

a fairly good paying stable job........
man....these days a whole lot of guys envy you!

I personally think the airlines are better in the long run. I would not switch myself, but I always heard the best job in this business is a very senior major airline pilot....

but then again, Im a little out of touch with the airlines these days, and it seems there are many bad changes coming thier ways...

 

[N1WH]

I am in the same boat as you. I too am wondering if I should leave corporate aviation. I am in the swa pool as well . (#82). Although I fly for a fractional which is a little different from a corporate flight department. I work 7 on and 7 off for my fixed schedule which I love. But I have been told by numerous retired airline crews that I fly with that the airlines are still the best thing going. Your quality of life is what its all about! I am quite senior at my present job and am not too worried about ever being layed off here so I do have some doubts about going to airline and getting the axe. But I believe that swa is going to be around for a very long time! Also if anything does happen I know I will be able to get another corporate job if I was furloughed. But I too get bored of hanging out in fbos and in hotel rooms all the time. I am getting married soon and those cool overnights arent what they use to be! I think either way your in a great spot. Good luck.

 

[GVFlyer]

You might look at the economic opportunity loss involved in switching careers. Determine the money you would lose before you reached economic parity with SouthWest, then compute what that money would be worth over the time required to reach parity.

This is one of the determinants I used when I retired from the military and was trying to decide if I should go corporate or to the majors. In my squadron at Andrews AFB about half the guys went to the airlines and the rest of us went corporate or to manufacturers. The two that went to SWA are happy there.

I know this will be a hard decision for you; good luck.

GV

 

[JayDub]

When you launch, it is up to you to ensure that the flight planning is accurate, enough fuel is on-board,

Isn't that kind of like wanting to be the waterboy when you are the QB? All airline pilots do is fly the airplane, which is what I prefer.

If you do get layed off or fired (corporate generally does not have furloughs) there are hundreds of other companies with flight departments.

But to do this, you often have to go to another city. At most major corporations, the Board of directors is rather inbred. That is to say, that are friends of the chairman, often flying aircraft out of the same general area. It is embarassing to hire a pilot away from a friend, much less hire one that your friend fired.

Very few companies have a fixed schedule. It does get old to have your trip cancelled or created one hour prior to blast off.

With the airlines, your schedule will improve with seniority. With corporate, very little changes with seniority. You can't call off a trip you don't like just because you've been there longer in corporate aviation.

The best path for a good salary in corporate aviation is to fly "the big iron", like the Boeing Business Jet, Gulfstream V, or Global Express. These aircraft have a 6,500+ nm range which translates into long trips. Last month I was gone 28 days.

Same with the airlines. However, you don't bid the "big iron" until you can get a decent schedule, if you want. With that said, you will have more days off by regulation than you had last month. You also have to stick to other regs like duty, min days off, etc. even at the crappiest commuters. At an airline like SWA, you'll never be asked to fly broken airplanes, or exceed duty day limits. Don't know if this applies to you, but it did to me.

No union protection. Although I have worked for the same company for nine years (great company by the way), I have seen pilots get fired because the passenger did not like the pilots landings.

My airline is non-union and they wouldn't dare fire you w/o just provocation for fear of getting one.

I would now rather fly when I am at work than stay in a hotel.

Bingo! Same with me.

Is the flying boring?

If an airline only flew to this few places, it would never get big enough to hire anyone.

I heard that at certain airlines, the employees are very negative.

You make the same pay rate whether you are happy or not. I choose to be happy.

You might look at the economic opportunity loss involved in switching careers.

That is an age-driven argument. How old are you?


I hope this helps.


JayDub

 

[Midnight Mike]

Bally

Can you send me an email

[email protected]

I have some questions for you about corporate flying? In turn, I can have some of my pilot buddies speak
with you about your problem..

 

[AKAAB]

JayDub pretty much covered what I was going to say.

I made the jump from corporate to airline three years ago, and have not regretted a moment of it. Actually, I believe I was the first corporate pilot hired at JetBlue. My sim partner was the second.

I have seen my schedule dramatically improve every month and have never been bored a single day. In my last corporate position we basically flew to four cities, with an occasional roadshow to sell more stock or bonds, or such. Now, if I get tired of flying in any particular area, I bid for something else. For example - I hate Burlington in the winter...so I fly there in the Summer. If I get really bored, I'll bid a Seattle trip. Feel like going to Spain, Iberia interline tickets are about $100!

What do I miss...oh, maybe Rudy's box lunches (with the little purple flowers), the Flowers Girls in Salina, the occasional shrimp coctail, and the Flowers Girls in Pueblo.....

What don't I miss....Teterboro (over and over), beepers, fear of beer (the boss might need me), flying with the same boring guy day after day, listening to the CEO explain how to save fuel by filing direct to White Plains from South Florida (yeah, that works), motels with no idea when I'm leaving, flying with McGuyver who thought he could fix anything with safety wire and nurse any ailing airplane until we got home - no matter how bad, cancelled vacations because we never had enough pilots on staff, and finally - knowing that the future of the company was not affected one iota by my existence.

At JetBlue, I honestly feel that every flight I am helping build something unique and that my efforts directly support our growth and viability. I can't tell you how much pride I have going to work each day. Shucks, I've even gone so far as to write commercials for future consideration by our PR department - just because, you know! Unfortunately, my sense of humor will probably keep me from ever seeing my ideas on the tv, but at least they appreciate the ideas.

So, if you are looking at the airlines, and don't mind never having to negotiate for fuel with someone who smells like a camel, then come on over. You won't be disappointed as long as you find an airline where the people enjoy their jobs. SWA, JB, and AirTran are probably the best choices.

Good Luck!

AKAAB

 

[Bally]

AKAAB,

Thanks for your comments. By the way, I wish I could get my wife to cut off the crusts on my sandwiches like Rudy. I will miss Rudy...

I thought I was the only one whose CEO (non-pilot) had more "constructive comments" on how the fly the jet than FSI.

 

[embdrvr]

Last month I was gone 28 days. Generally speaking, the bigger the jet, the bigger your suitcase.

No thanks, I don't think I want to end up divorced. One nice thing about the airlines is being home 12-18 days per month depending upon schedule and whether or not you commute. Plus you have a better chance of your kids recognizing you and not getting bit by your own dog.

 

[roadkng737]

Bally,

I made the jump from corporate to SWA 5 years ago and feel it was the best move of my life. It was the hardest thing I had ever done as I was working with my two best friends in a flight department that we started.

I think that I can answer any questions you might have and would luv to help you out.

If you are still wondering then please email me.

Good Luck,

TJ

 

[Indapool]

I think AKAAB just nailed it.

Funny thing is I just got home from a 4 day stay in TEB, loaded up on Rudy's (is there a better rice pudding in the whole freaking world? )AND made the fuel stop in SLN. Some things never change

Corporate was a lot of fun, went all over the world, did alot of things most people only dream of, but it isn't the way I want to spend the next 25 years.

 

[reepicheep]

I would be very leery about leaving a reasonably good corporate job for the airlines. Since I work for US Airways maybe I need to issue a disclaimer - the airlines aren't all this bad - but realize right now you are chasing a moving target. No one knows yet how much pay & benefits packages are going to be gutted. AMR, NWA, DAL, SWA etc... pilots may be next in line to feel the pain that we've already felt. It's hard to say in 5 years how much these jobs are going to pay and what the working conditions will be. And how many of the carriers will still be around.

IF you get hired by the right airline at the right time I think there are still fine careers to be had. What is the "right" airline - 15 years ago it was USAir and Piedmont and United and now it's jetBlue and Southwest. The accolades for USAir 15 years ago was every bit as enthusiastic and widespread as what you see today for jetBlue. If you guess wrong then unlike corporate there's no such thing as a lateral move - you're out of luck and start all over again at the bottom IF you can find a job.

One more thing I have to address - the myth that airline pilots are lazy and don't want to do any "dirty work". This is an oft-cited excuse for corporate operators to shun ex-airline pilots looking for work. The fact is our own airlines have created the work rules and culture that prevents me from helping out with cleaning the cabin or slinging bags. I'd be happy to help out, I know the Southwest pilots do from time to time.

At US Airways we had a captain delay a transcon flight to wait for proper first class catering. He was later called on the carpet by the chief pilot who then issued a bulletin reminding us that "pilots don't work for customer service". True story.

Most of us aren't lazy - just improperly utilized sometimes.

 

[Heavy Set]

Bally,

Sounds like you have reached the "pinnacle" of corporate aviation. Flying a BBJ or Gulfstream IV around the world. Do you know how many pilots (in general) would love to have that opportunity? You have reached the APEX of corporate aviation. You fly one of the most capable and awe-inspiring corporate aircraft on the ramp - Lears don't garner attention at Van Nuys like the BBJs do...

Now you want to maybe leave and start as an FO for 5-6 years flying between El Paso and Tulsa. Sure, Southwest is very stable - probably the most stable airline out there... The salary and benefits will be pretty good. You can probably fly to all four corners of the country in one four-day trip. But unlike Jetblue which flies maybe 3-4 sectors per day (1-2 if you include a transcon), at Southwest you might fly 5-6 sectors - this is "hard" flying. Sure you won't work 28 days per month, but you will work very hard days of exhaustive flying - up, down, up, down, up, down, up, down... We are talking about 20-30 minute turns - no, you can't take a dump, you need to do the pre-flight NOW!!!!!

We have heard ad nauseum about the virtues of Southwest and its FANTASTIC corporate culture and esprit de corps, but I have also heard first-hand how difficult and monotonous the flying can be... If you want a very stable job, a super-fun culture, the 737 for the rest of your life (not the choice between a BBJ and a sleek GIV), 5-6 years until you reach Captain, and extremely good familiarity with the approaches into El Paso, then Southwest is your choice. No doubt it is a great airline - extreme stability in a very turbulent time...

But you will be giving up probably the most "cherry" corporate position out there. I don't know the details of your monthly schedule, but I bet you don't work 28 days EVERY month. And I bet you don't fly between El Paso and Tulsa much.

I don't want to be flamed. I am trying to provide the devil's advocate position. This will be a very, very difficult decision to make. Southwest will continue to do well, but you need to determine if the "Southwest" style of flying is right for you. You may work only 16 days per month vs. 16+ on the BBJ - but those days will most likely be exhausting.

The airlines are not always the answer - look at what is happening at UAL - everyone's choice for employment just 2-3 years ago...

Tough choice. Good luck!

 

[CCDiscoB]

Heavy Set,

Excellent post! I choose corporate, now I just have to find one.....heavy Bally, where do you work?

 

[swimmer]

Bally: Tough choice. It sounds like you have a great corporate job. I had one of those corp. jobs that you described, chasing down dog bones and such. I've been flying for an airline now for almost three years, and wouldn't dream of going back to corp. I do miss "running the show", but there are aspect of it that I don't miss.
Your right about the schedule. It is so nice to beable to plan your life with some certainty a month out. No company pager\cell phone ringing in the middle of the night. There are no extra "duties" to tend to when your not flying, and no office to go to.
You'll only know if you made the right choice when you career is over. Good luck to you.

Swimmer

 

[griffith30@mchs]

Lots of good input on corporate vs airline.I've flown most of my career corporate and got into the airline game late.Airline job is a different job entirely if you have to commute.I was told that if you have to commute you have two jobs;one you love and the other one sucks.At least with SW you can usually commute in on day one of the pairing and home on the last.Depends on where you're based and where you live,of course.My airline has seen fit to construct pairings so that you start early on day one and end late on the last day.It's enough to make me miss corporate.Yeah,sitting around the FBO in TEB is no fun but neither is sitting reserve.Don't even mention the crashpad thing.I had my last roomie in college and that was a long time ago! Good luck,must be tough to have two tough choices.

 

[Bally]

Thanks for all the great comments guys (gals)! I know I am very very fortunate that I have a job given the number of our fellow pilots out of work. All in all, I look forward to an invitation to a class at Southwest Airlines where I will finally see first hand the other side.

I am however, glad that my leaving my current employer will open a space for another pilot to fly the mighty BBJ at a great company. The net effect will be one additional pilot job among a very professional group of folks.

I am happily on my way to some po-dunk town in Russia that I have never heard of. With four RON's there, I guess the soup de jour will be Vodka this week. This is especially true since I am flying with my CP (just kidding). I will be off line since the Rooskies do not have internet access.

Keep warm.

 

[viking737]

Left corporate in 1984, and haven't regretted it one second!
However , now in my 18th year with AA, it looks like a bumpy road ahead! I am sure SWA is a great airline, but I prefer
the mixture of flying that comes with an international carrier.

 

[JetPilot500]

Here is my experience:

After being a CFI (until I had 2700TT), I got a job flying passenger charter in a Falcon 20 as FO. Eventually, got experience flying King Air's and Citation's too. and eventually Captain in all of those planes. Had this job for a few years. Typical charter B.S.. Broken planes and "rules are for the weak" kinda stuff. Not my idea of fun...but the experience was good and necessary.

Then, VIOLA! I got a job flying a G-IV for one of the largest companies in the world. I thought it would be great. I expected it to be everything and more that I wished my last job was. While maintenance was great, I found the there was still an attitude of "rules are for the weak." Gone all the time (Big Airplane = Big Suitcase). Gone 12 days and only fly 2 days, or less. I quickly decided it wasn't for me. I found an airline job so I thought I would try that.

I then get a job with Midwest Express flying a DC-9. No move or commute necessary...thank God! Big pay cut...about 50%, but I was ok with that. I loved the job! Midwest Express had been profitable for the last 12 years and never furloughed a pilot, even during the early 90's. I felt secure. I enjoyed the schedules, but not reserve (but that was only temporary). I flew to like 20 different places, but that was about the same as my corporate stuff. 3 or 4 days of flying followed by 3 or 4 days off....terrific! Couldn't ask for more. I loved it and planned to retire there if I could. Then a month and a half after 9/11, I got furloughed.

Quickly found a job flying charter for the time being.

Then, a flying job with a Fortune 100 company came along. This company turned out to be everything I wanted in a corporate job. A good mix of domestic and international flying. Yes some trips vary in length, but not too bad. Most of my trips are planned way in advance so it's almost like having a schedule. No "pop-up" trips...unless a very rare emergency occurs, and I'll be happy to help out. Great equipment. Profitable company. 15-20 days off per month. No reserve. No commuting. I hope this job lasts! I turned down my recall at Midwest because of this job.

My point. Maybe you don't have the right corporate job. I thought I had a "Cream of the Crop" corporate job, and I didn't like it. I don't get paid as much as the first corporate job, but I'm making more than I would make at Midwest (and they paid pretty decent for an airline). Midwest is not Southwest, I know. Since you are in the pool at SWA, maybe you have some time. Put some feelers out there in corporate, you might find what you are looking for...they aren't all the same.

Good Luck,
JetPilot500

 

[Old Crow]

It's the same question over and over... Is giving up the corporate pay worth the schedule of an airline.

That's all it really comes down to. The benifits of a good corporate job far out weigh the airlines. However, the real benefit of an airline is that **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** good schedule. It's worth millions to some, worth pennies to others.

I was a captain with a fortune 100 company and went to the airlines against my good judgement simply because of the schdule and future security. I question myself, yet I always come back to the same answer... MONEY. I took a 60% pay cut and am paying for it dearly. I also know when I'm leaving home and when I'm coming home and that's where I make up that loss.

If you can adapt to a new financial lifestyle fairly easily... SWA is my opinion.
If you like the things you have and don't mind the schedule. I'd say you should stay put.

Good luck bud.