corporate->major transition

[501261]

Good point Falcon Capt. No offense Texan, but you’re not going to see "Class A corporate" people applying anywhere. You're just as likely to see a United 747 captain applying for a job as you are to see GLEX pilots applying!

 

[LA Confidential]

Reason you don’t see many “Class A” corporate types flying for the airlines has more to do with them not applying than it does them not being offered the job.

Our F/O’s would take about a 40 to 50% cut in pay if they left within the first 24 months of employment to go to the airlines. After their 24 month probation is up and they are reevaluated prior to their 36-month anniversary they can expect to be pushing 75 to 85 grand, base floor for a first year skipper is $102,000 for us, average upgrade time is running four years.

And airline QOL is not even comparable to the QOL of a sharply run Fortune op.

Company paid for my relocation, we don’t wear uniforms so I have a clothing allotment given to me every three months, rental cars at all stops where ground transportation or courtesy cars are not provided, hotels that in reality only your CEO et al would dare put on a company charge card.

Absolutely everything is paid for while I’m on the road regardless where were at, be it just across the state or across the Pacific Ocean.

I’m not belittling 121 commuter/major flying at all; I’m just saying that comparison of the two is nearly impossible… apples to oranges.

 

[Texan]

Falcon Capt

Check your Private Message, The 20 was a diffrent gig. I agree apples to oranges. Its is difficult to transition from an Apple to an Orange. Not in skill though. Its all who you know and what you want.

 

[Mr Freeze]

I have sent resumes to every Fractional and Regional that is currently hiring and haven't heard anything. Times are Tough.

In my personal opinion in order to be competitive in todays job market, you need at least 5000 hours or more to be concidered. People are on the streets with more PIC turbine than I have total time.

Flying for a Regional Airline will build time at a faster rate than most Corp jobs.

121 experience is preferable. ASA and ACA require 121 experience as part of their minimum qualifications and both of them are Regionals. That could be the reson why I haven't heard anything back from them.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Lymond]

I've been feeding myself since age nineteen with a stick and a rudder; there are no guaranteed avenues to the majors; unless you happen to be a "special case" courtesy of the EEOC -- in which case you can pretty much call your career path much like Ruth called his shot. (Or rather, they call you. And you pick.)

In my life I have flight instructed, flown charter, sprayed crops, towed banners, been a regional f/o & captain; flight engineer, f/o and captain for a major airline; been furloughed, taken leaves -- been the chief pilot for a 91 jet operation, gone back to the majors, taken leave again and currently fly as a line captain for a Fortune 30 company.

I made career changes during economic recession, national emergency and even the long, bull market of the 1990's.

My point is -- the path to success is a subjective one: if you feel you have been successful; guess what? You have been! Doesn't matter what your paystub says. The key to landing your dream job isn't a pocket full of type ratings, a pile of hours or choosing your steps to carefully fill in a resume like a five year-old doing a coloring book. Believe me. It's all about not being someone who is hard to get along with, who is enthusiastic (without being sycophantic) and above all: who can stand and deliver regardless. That's it -- write your own ticket.

You're only limited by your personality and imagination. Or lack thereof...

I've never met anyone who sent shotgun resumes -- and found a job they liked.

 

[501261]

Lymond,

Welcome aboard and thank you for that excellent post. I couldn't agree with you more.

 

[ultrarunner]

ASA and ACA require 121 experience as part of their minimum qualifications and both of them are Regionals.

Hmmm, that's very interesting. That certainly MUST be directly related to who is currently on the job market, since as recent as 18 months ago, I would suspect this was NOT a requirement. And I know for a fact that as recent as two years ago, folks were getting on board there with out the 121 stuff.

Supply and demand....that simple.

 

[Mr Freeze]

It's sad but true. Check the web sites.

 

[surplus1]

Nice thread gentlemen. I've read it all with great interest and lots of nostalgia. Some of the phraseology has changed but the rest of it brings back lots of memories, good, bad and I suppose indifferent. It's just amazing how much has changed and yet, how much is the same old story.

I'm not looking for a flying job now and I never will be again, but as I read of your experiences and ideas it's fun to compare them with those of days now gone. One thing is certain, the "careers" of those who choose to fly for a living can be simple or highly complex. One thing is certain, they won't all be the same no matter which segment you're in. It all seems to depend on where and when you entered the game and a great many events over which you really have little or no control. The "best" choices of today can turn out to be the "worst" in a different time or you can be just plain lucky and have smooth sailing all the way. I guess in the final analysis it all boils down, at least for me, into how much satisfaction you get out of riding around in aluminium tubes with appendages.

I've done the military bit. The flying was the greatest, but the way of life wasn't my cup of tea. I did no more than what I had to and never looked back for a day. Yet, when it started it was all I wanted to do. I just didn't know what it really was like. The only thing I could see was the airplanes. What a rude awakening that turned out to be.

And then the instructing. Hated it when I started. Only did it because there were no jobs. If you think the hiring market is bad now, that's just because you haven't been around long enough. It kind of grew on me though and today I still like the training department. Glad I had to do it. I admit to zero interest in the initial stuff, but I enjoy training in transports.

The Supplementals (non-skeds). There are still a bunch of them around although I don't hear much about them and the pilots don't seem to write on any board I've found. Talk about scum bag outfits. You haven't lived until you've done some of that and believe me I've done a lot. There's nothing quite like being stuck in Buenos Aires with 70 ton's of airplane and a company that can't pay it's gas bill. It's also great for your credit rating when your airline bounces your pay check and then goes bankrupt.

Corporate? Well to each his own. I know this is your part of the forum and I probably shouldn't be saying this here, but it wasn't for me. I've done it and all 3 of the Companies were 500 companies. Some how I always fellt more like a chauffeur (sp) than a pilot. I know I work in a service industry but I've never enjoyed feeling like a servant. Oh I was paid well, stayed in all those top dog hotels and enjoyed the full expense account, etc. But I still felt like the driver of my boss's company car. I didn't like the CEO's trashy wife, who could swill a bottle of Vodka between PIT and BOS and cuss like a dockside harlot. Or the VP in the other Company whose big thrill in life was goosing my FO, or the roudy Engineers who truned the interior of my beautiful aircraft into a pig sty, that I had to clean. Or the ignorant COO (different Co.) who **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed near got our airplane confiscated by a European Govt. or the one that thought we could ignore some "Camel Drivers" Mig. And I wasn't thrilled by flying a Poodle to LGA and waiting all day because some pampered executive's wife just couldn't have its hair clipped anywhere else.

Job security? Not really, I've seen corporate departments sold out from under the noses of the crews, with no warning whatever or disappear overnight as the result of a merger. And yes, I'm talking about the "big boys". These were not come lately or fly-by night corporations. I remember Westinghouse, whose CP got his kicks by making his new hires wash his car. And I remember the snobs at PPG who discovered (once they got bought out) that the way they treated others now applied to them. Some guys had it made or so they said, but if you were on the inside (not reading this board) the stories were quite similar to my own. I've only scratched the surface. We had the best equipment money could buy (in all 3 places), but I didn't miss it for a day. Maybe it's all different now. You would know the answer.

Then one day you land the dream job and your whole world changes. Paradise, right up until the first furlough notice and its back to hauling car parts out of YIP or running Muslims to Mecca for Haaj. You do get recalled though, sometimes sooner than others. And you get senior and life gets very good. Then one day they pull the plug and you start all over again.

Now we have the pesky regional. They come in all sizes and shapes and no, just like corporations, they aren't all alike. Yet even in the best, you struggle with managerial despots, fight with your own union that will sell you out in a heartbeat, and just hope you can hang on long enough to retire and find something else (flying related of course) that you can still do for fun.

Was it worth it? Yep, you bet it was. Would I do it again? Without question, yes. Why? I like airplanes and the people that fly them.

It's quite a rush to be sliding down the runway at 90 deg to the landing direction while you pray that the ice won't stop before the airplane does. When you're so heavy out of MIA in a lumbering recip that you can't make any turns until you cross the coast or when the cockpit is glowing red from the raging fire on #3 and you've already fired the #1 bottle on a dark Kingston night. There's nothing quite so beautiful on a clear day when you can see the ice cap on Greenland from 200 miles away or the snows of Kilamanjaro from nearly as far. Or you don't know how you're going to deal with the wind at Keflavick, but there's no where else to go and somehow you get it done. Or that kid you just told he could make his "first three" solo, but you're really worried and then ... he greases all 3. Or the veteran you just transitioned and you can proudly watch as he finesses two out on the same side on takeoff with a fuel dump and a flawless ILS with 1200 rvr and no glass, just hands. Or the time you show off (in the sim) because you know you're a great stick, only to land with the gear in the wells and put your "pride" back where it belongs.

It's a great life people. Cherish every moment you have 'cause only a few are really called to doing this. All of you folks that worry about the pay checks and the perks and the days off and your upgrade and all that other stuff that has nothing to do with flying, well maybe your degree would do you better in another field and you should try something else. To my fellow aviators.............. God bless you all. Enjoy it while you can.

PS. Sorry, I got carried away. Airlines are the way to go and yes, they'll take you from corporate if you have enough time, but generally they prefer you from the military or the 121 operation.

 

[Lymond]

Nice post, Surplus.

I come from an airline family -- my dad flew -- mom a stew -- sisters too. I was a captain at a major, and might be again, who knows -- turned 37 yesterday, so there's probably gonna be more where that came from, if I want it. Took a leave, so I still have my precious seniority number (I say with a trace of sarcasm.)

Yes, we've all seen the corporates head down the tubes with little or no warning -- but let us remember the Easterns, Pan Americans, Braniffs and the long, long list of smaller outfits that made refugees of their people. Let us not forget minimum overnights at the Ramada with a complaining group of flight attendants -- and an idiotic copilot you'd love to murder -- and being on reserve for decades (and you have no life there, either) , the union dues (and their politics) the furlough notices and the holidays (all of 'em) spent away from family. Weekends off? Fuggehdaboutit!

I flew in the airline world for some sixteen years. Yeah, it's great if, like you say, your Mojo happens to be working. Yet for every one guy who sails through his career without a hiccup (like my Pop) there's four who end up disillusioned, unemployed or burned out -- or all of the above. The reasons for this are myraid -- as you mention. But it's a one in five shot.

Your career is what you make it. Corporate, airline, non-scheduled or hauling freight -- there are dirtbags in all. One must decide what he or she wants. Me, I wanted to see my kids grow up; to have weekends off (mostly) and be relatively certain of an annual raise -- without negotiating (my allegedly bloated) salary in the press every four years or so -- and wondering if I could make a house payment on strike wages... And to see my kids open their presents on Christmas morning. And to make six figures a year.

Hey, if that means eating a little crow from time to time -- along with my almond-crusted Chilean sea bass from the Ritz Carlton: I do so with the knowledge of exactly what the other life is like, too. Again, you have to decide what you want out of life. For instance, my desires at age 23 were a WHOLE lot different than they were at 35. Sitting behind some crapulous old despot as he chain-smoked Camels all the way from BOS to SFO -- and screamed at everybody in his path (while goosing the flight attendants) was just fine and dandy with me: I was just waiting for my chance to be king. At 35 however, with a couple of furloughs behind me, a young family, and a career that appeared on perma-hold -- and the pager going off every time I either sat down to say Grace or hadn't yet even rolled over in the bed -- that too, gets very old after about a decade or so.

So let's qualify our statements: the best job going is the airline captain's seat at the airline that is consistently successful, has few, if any mergers; and has a corporate philosophy consistent with that of most successful Fortune 100 companies -- regardless of what the union may WISH the philosophy to be and all the contract language designed to do just that...

Yeah, I'd agree with you. But that's about as likely as every major league baseball player spending his entire career as a Yankee.


Decide what is important to you. If it's the boost you get by not having to take crap off anyone (if you aspire to be a major airline captain) -- go for the brass ring. You might get there. Just remember; as John Lennon said: life is what occurs when your making plans for the future -- or words to this effect. You might do a whole lotta waiting for your life to begin. When you can be king -- of your own little world.

 

[banned username 2]

Lymond...

All I can say is "Wow!"

Very well put... excellent post!

 

[surplus1]

Lymond,

Nice post. I couldn't disagree with anything you said. That's pretty much what I was trying to point out, there are down side and up side to whatever segement of aviation you choose to make your living in. So, in the final analysis, it just boils down to personal preference.

It can be a great life in the corporate world as Captain of a GV that spends 75% of its time in one foreign country or another, living out of the suitcase, and dining at that Ritz Carlton you like or you could be happy driving a King Air for a less lavish University and home every night. Then you can be in and out of those perfect airline jobs (as I have) and lose it all after you "made it" for any variety of reasons like the union ills you mention, the stupidity of managers or some group of maniacs flying airplanes into buildings.

It's all a matter of choice or, more lickely, the luck of the draw. Whatever suits your fancy or however lady luck treats you, it's still a ball flying airplanes for a living.

Best wishes.

 

[beytzim]

To Surplus1,

Great post. Reminded me of good old' Ernest K. Gann with ' Fate is the Hunter'. Ever think of writing a book?

You know what, we can analyze this to death, but it's all luck. A buddy of mine graduated college at 22, worked at Gulfstream Airlines flying a beat up B-1900C. Became Captain and after getting 1000PIC got hired at AA at age 25. That was several years ago and he is senior enough NOT to have gotten furloughed. So now, he will be at AA for 35 years never knowing a furlough, a crappy corporate or freight job.

But anyway, fractionals like Netjets maybe (and I mean just by that, maybe) the exception. Taking the best of corporate and majors and leaving the worst out. Sure, the pay sucks now, but like you guys said - its not so much the money, but rather job satisfaction and QOF.

Nevertheless, back to the original post. Recalling the stats poosted by Air Inc. prior tp 9/11, I can specifically remember individual class hirings. For a given class at a major of 20, there were usually two or three corporate/charter new hires- the rest being military/part121. One would say that perhaps majors don't like corporate/charter. However, that is incorrect. You must remember that many corporate/charter pilots have no interest in working for the majors. Certainly the ones making 150k a year. But I flew with many guys making 70k a year and quite happy where they're at! Therefore, the 10% or so of corporate new hires at the majors simply means a low number of corporate applicants.

Further, prior to 9/11, there was a significant upsurge of hiring from the Fractionals to the Majors. It seems the majors are starting to really admire pilots of fractional backgrounds - to the same level, or perhaps a higher level than their regional/commuter counterparts.

Regardless, its whether you see it as half full or half empty.

 

[Lord Wakefield]

Further, prior to 9/11, there was a significant upsurge of hiring from the Fractionals to the Majors. It seems the majors are starting to really admire pilots of fractional backgrounds - to the same level, or perhaps a higher level than their regional/commuter counterparts.

Regardless, its whether you see it as half full or half empty.

Very true about airlines hiring fractional pilots. For years they eschewed them as an unquantifiable group of pt 91 pilots. Then they got their first taste. Two weeks prior to 911, DAL was planning a trip up to EJA to recruit pilots. Months before they teased them by flying in their restored DC-3 and giving rides and passing out business cards. How many miltary bases and regional airlines can say this? Plato R. said he'd hire any EJA pilot who was a capt and had 3000TT. Folks at EJA went to ATL to try to prevent this and were turned away. Told, "We'll send some retirees your way!"

Any discussion about the % of corporate pilots at the majors has to take into account the total number of corporate pilots. There just ain't that many compared to Regional pilots.

 

[banned username 2]

Any discussion about the % of corporate pilots at the majors has to take into account the total number of corporate pilots. There just ain't that many compared to Regional pilots.

Also keep in mind a lot of Corporate guys who have good jobs weren't interested in jumping to the Majors... So this would also reduce the number of former Corporate guys at the Majors...