Corollary to ALPA Scab list

[BoilerUP]

Capt. Frank Mayne has done a wonderful job attending career fairs and advisory councils at Purdue in my three years there, and he also is an annual presence at the national NIFA Safecon. Capt. Mayne does a great job connecting with the kids (people just like myself), but we need MORE OF IT!!!

I get extremely angry when I hear people my age say "All I wanna do is fly a jet" - I can almost hear the toilet flushing my chosen profession down the drain. If ALPA/APA/Teamsters/whoever can connect to the pilots at the collegiate level and make their point and be heard, I believe they would change a TON of minds. They certainly would have a captive audience for Mesa and XJT and CHQ and even CMR/ASA guys get up and talk about their situations and QOL. Have the ALG/PDT/PSA guys talk about the mess they are dealing with. Talk to the Colganites about the crap they put up with. Education is priceless, and it would be a great thing, IMO.

Flying the Line and Hard Landing need to be mandatory reading for every aspiring commercial pilot, but pilots, unions and their MECs need to get involved to make the change happen.

My $.02

 

[FearlessFreep]

Mar, Turbo you guys are on the right track or train of thought. The whole purpose of being in aviation is because you love and have a passion for it. This includes everyone that works in the field other than just pilots. If you doing it for mass quantities of money your in the wrong occupation. Most flying jobs just flat don't pay. The amount of time that you have off for your personal life pales in comparison to that afforded people that work a 40 hour week. Of course all of this very well known and should not have to be reiterated.

The thing is that we all make choices. Mar (and others) made the choice or were thrust into the circumstance of taking a path other than the well tred standard one of CFI to Regionals to Majors or the Military to Majors. So be it.

The point is with the options we have we make choices. Orion, let's take yours - Military to Regional and what appears to be long wait for the Legacy "Major" Carriers. Is any of the LCC's not good enough? The point is Orion you made a choice and now your not happy with it. So now what you are planning on doing is going out of your way to denigrate and damage peoples careers and lives that are not a member of your labor relations group based solely on YOUR preception that they have somehow impeded upon YOUR ability to make more money. You don't even know a fair amount of these people personally but you are only more than willing to go out of your way to damage their ability to make a living and make their lives miserable in a field of endeavor that is their passion.

Can things be better in our industry? Certainly. Is it productive to engage in vile, vindictive derision and further splinter an already loose affiliation of people? No.

The truth is Orion, you made your choice and now you don't want to live with it. You can only blame yourself for your own unhappiness, ( I will give you latitude regarding the events of 9/11) don't blame others for their choices. One day YOU will make a choice that will be unpopular or totally unacceptable to others. Would you like them to go after you like you propose going after those that YOU perceive slighted you? There are so many other variables involved with the quality of life (and pay) at wherever you work other than JUST the behavior of crewmembers and their labor representation, to think otherwise is to be unbelivably shallow and shortsighted. Wait till you work at a place that busts the union and the company does what they d**n well please. You are so pro union, but I can nearly bet money that you vote Republican. Now that is a contradiction in terms and is yet another choice that you might have made that you can be unhappy about.

P.S. If you are retired military don't you also have a pension to supplement your wages? A lot of people don't have that option available to them.

Anyway in closing - Relax and enjoy life, go tilt back a frothy one and be happy for what you do have,there are many that are in much more unfortunate straights than yourself.

Vaya Con Dios.

Have Fun, Fly Safe & Good Luck To Us All!

 

[Typhoon1244]

Scabs, well, I've known a couple and at *least* they're qualified...

...with the possible exception two of Lorenzo's finest who deliberately flew through an anvil cloud.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X24506&key=1

 

[mar]

Well, that was dumb.

<<EASTERN AIRLINE FLT 791 ENCTRD TURBULENCE WHILE EN ROUTE AT 31,000 FT AS IT FLEW THRU THE OVERHANG OF A THUNDERSTORM. FLT THRU OVERHANGS WAS CONTRARY TO THE COMPANY FLT OPNS PROCEDURES. THREE PSGRS RCVD SERIOUS INJURIES & ONE OF THESE (84 YRS OLD) DIED 20 DAYS AFTER THE ACDNT.>>

That was pretty stupid. I hope they were fired.

 

[enigma]

<<EASTERN AIRLINE FLT 791 ENCTRD TURBULENCE WHILE EN ROUTE AT 31,000 FT AS IT FLEW THRU THE OVERHANG OF A THUNDERSTORM. FLT THRU OVERHANGS WAS CONTRARY TO THE COMPANY FLT OPNS PROCEDURES. THREE PSGRS RCVD SERIOUS INJURIES & ONE OF THESE (84 YRS OLD) DIED 20 DAYS AFTER THE ACDNT.>>

That was pretty stupid. I hope they were fired.

Au Contrair mi amigo. Aside from the fact that they were scabs and should be shot. ( just puffery my friends, I don't want to shot anyone, well maybe AlQueda). Aside from that, this is a perfect opportunity for retraining. The Feds love to demand retraining, and I can't think of people who might need it more. Since they scabbed, they most likely weren't qualified to be in the seat to begin with, so their lack of experience was most likely the reason for their poor decision. Give em the training, they need it.

enigma

I realize that this happened long ago, my use of the present tense just happened. Maybe I got up on the wrong side of the bed, who knows!

 

[orioncontract]

Freep-I think you are attributing things to me which I did not say, or imply. Some of you guys did horribly on the SAT/ACT didn't you? Nevermind, I don't want to know--RTFQ. Or in this case, read the post. While I may be frustrated with my poor timing, the zit/boil/blister issue is one that affects all union pilots, regardless of current employer.

 

[FearlessFreep]

In the end you really have to understand that I don't care what you think. You are just a very sad mean spirited individual if the only thing you think worthy is to discuss people that you PERCEIVE slighted you.

I will say again that until you have experienced losing your job because your company broke the union that you still do not have a clue as to what your talking about. Wow! Those labor unions can really make a difference. Boy, My dues really did help me keep my job! Thank you so very much for that fine, first rate representation!

Where is the justice in a system where THE major pilot labor representation group sends a smaller council packing while they actively kiss the a**es of a richer more "Major" Council. As the members of the "Major" council make in 2-3 months MORE pay than the lesser council members make in a YEAR, it is very evident that the only motivating factor here is just how much money the union can collect. So much for the vaunted moral high ground.

Go ahead, go blindly follow your union bellwether and just see where it will lead you. The primary definition of bellwether as per the dictionary is " 1. A male sheep, usually castrated, with a bell hung from its neck, that is followed by a flock of sheep." The second definition is " One that is followed as a leader." Does that make all bellwethers castrated males? Followers of bellwethers are sheep? A lot can be construed with this one! Hmmm.

I feel very satisfied if the only thing you can think to do is attempt to insult my intelligence.

WTF. I am just very happy that I don't have to fly with you.

Go have some fun and stop worrying about what other people are doing with their lives or the choices they have had to make.

Adios

 

[orioncontract]

Go ahead, go blindly follow your union bellwether and just see where it will lead you.

I'm not sure I follow, even after your attempted definition. In any case, are we merely better educated 15 year olds with this bombastic talk of scrotumless sheep? "Dude, you don't have any cajones!" "Oh yeah, meet me after school, in the parking lot!" You can find all the archaic definitions you like, I've never heard bellwether ever used in those terms, though we haven't been an agrarian based economy or society in over, I'm guessing, 80 years, so I shouldn't be surprised that I haven't. Most will be familiar with its use as a synonym for "proxy", as in "FedEx is a bellwether transportation company; as FedEx goes, so goes the economy." I can try to insult your intelligence all I want, the only one who can feel insulted is you. Of course, if I have a lot of material, this becomes easy...

Forgive me for my jibe at those of you who aren't reading the question, my frustration got the better of me.

But I digress.

You can love a profession all you want, but if it doesn't provide food and shelter for the family and ensure their futures, what good is it? I wasn't a huge union guy when I was military, and I'm still not in favor of $80K/yr janitors with their own personal assistants (story I read not too long ago about what was wrong with the education system; specifically unionized NYC school system janitors "hiring" their wives onto the payroll because they could-it was part of the contract), but when there's a need, there's a need. And just because I wasn't a huge union guy, then or now, does not mean I was or am a huge company man. Greed is NOT good, but wanting to make money can be, especially in a well-regulated (not too much, not too little) market.

And no, I don't vote what I perceive to be in my own personal short term best interests, I vote what I think is best for the country, its future and our posterity, which frequently can be different. Those who vote their pocketbooks, and all one-issue voters, are fools, and selfish ones at that, IMO.

It's been brought to my attention (via PM) that I may be arguing with those who, through actions, predispositions, or lack of opportunity, might otherwise be on this proposed list, or on the scab list. I would hope one might be able to discern valid points from this thread, pro and con, yet I think it bears mentioning that management, zits, scabs and their sympathizers alike may be visiting, or even posting, to this thread. It never occurred to me that the thread may become dominated by that group, so I've not approached it with that mindset, until now. Please note, I am NOT accusing anyone, just that it hadn't occurred to me.

You don't even know a fair amount of these people personally but you are only more than willing to go out of your way to damage their ability to make a living and make their lives miserable in a field of endeavor that is their passion.

Passion has its place in this world, but when it overrides rational thought that's a problem. The purpose of this list would be to further a pilot's ability to "make a living", by encouraging solidarity. I'm fully aware of the consequences, so stop discussing it. Instead discuss alternatives to unions, or strategies to fight poor management strategies such as the "squeeze labor for concessions" business plans, or even the effectiveness of ALPA/Teamsters/APA/etc (my interest was piqued by your vague reference to union busting-case studies and even well-written anecdotes can be VERY useful, IMO). But speaking in emotional terms about passions and longing for the beauty of an Arizona sunset at FL330 just isn't productive.

p.s. Turbo, enigma, Mar-if the Wright bros were alive today, would they be posting here talking about whether Mar was doing REAL flying or not? Would they be critical of hydraulic assisted flight controls, system redundancies, or propulsion systems? Jeez, you guys sound like Luddites sometimes. I appreciate the more romanticized (strict definition of the word, please) aspects of flying, but...c'mon. It's been some years, but I think the quote was "...tide, time, and formation wait for no man!" I would add innovation to that list.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Gotcha!

You care much more about this issue than I do.

You just can't stand a dissenting opinion. Guess what, not everyone is going to do what you THINK they should do. There are people that work for companies that have unions and those that don't. I does not make it wrong to work for a company that does not have a union or for one that may have representation that is not to the level that you perceive as appropriate. If you wish to take YOUR definition to an extent that you intend for others you shouldn't be working flying RJ's period. They just don't pay people a liveable wage. You should quit, as you are cheapening the workforce in the same manner that you imply other people are. Matter of fact why don't we extend it and just attach a figure to your definition - Less than 50K a year made flying any aircraft make you a zit, boil, etc. A prostitute to capitalism! Oops, that includes me! Oh well. Good thing I defy definition!

Getting pilots as a group to agree on anything is like herding cats. Again I state, I am an individual and will defy being defined or pigeon holed by people who only see the world in monochromatic terms.

Oh, and FYI, I am neither a scab, zit or whatever stupid definition you might think may be applicable to anyone who does something other than the masses and popular opinion (not that I even care what you think). I have worked both union (the union lost my job for me), non-union and have not crossed a picket line.

Whatever bombast you might throw is NOT going to sway me to go to the same stupid party your at.

Take Care, Good Luck & Fly Safe! (And I mean this most sincerely)

Adios!

 

[TurboS7]

Tell you what. Take my name and emblaze it in red on the top of your SCAB LIST, ZIT list, Boil list or whatever you call it. Basically my impression is that the so called professional pilot is just a very insecure human being that has no ability to operate in the real world. Most seem to be real jerks too, if I were to read these threads from the outside that would be my impression. Since I have read post from others that are on this thread I know it is not so. Please don't make us all look like fools............

 

[mar]

The heart of the matter

Orion--Passion. Greed. Solidarity. Our own selfish interests. And "real" flying.

This is the heart of the matter.

Not to mention it's competitive as hell and dominated by males which means we must factor in the testosterone (by the way I'd prefer to keep my end of the discussion away from castrated sheep).

But please understand this: I ain't no scab and I don't look down my nose at those pilots who have never touched a pallet jack or fueled their own airplane or swept snow off their wings.

But let's be honest: Times are tough! Yes! But a lot of us don't know how good we've got it.

After all, why did you learn to fly? Well, you, Orion, probably have some higher calling like you wanted to serve your country.

I admire that.

Myself, I'm not so principled, I wanted to learn to fly because I never wanted to work for a living.

Flying airplanes is a GREAT way to make a living. I mean it's tough in some ways but it's pretty awesome in other ways too. I LOVE being a working pilot. I take great satisfaction in completing the job as efficiently as I can. I like our customers and I like our crews...well, most of them.

Some of the guys I work with seem to have a certain sense of entitlement. They were taught the pilot is responsible for everything. The pilot is the final authority. The pilot shall play the safety card whenever he can. Without the pilot the rubber dog crap dont' move.

Hmm.

The pilot is no better than the mechanic, ground crew, dispatcher or ticket agent. These are also my co-workers (or crew members, if you will).

So now it's my turn to digress. I don't mean to turn the discussion from the benefits of unionization or the degradation of the scab. If you and others truly feel that a discussion about how to screw other pilots out of a jumpseat is a worthwhile endeavor on this BBS, then please, have at it.

But I'll offer my original caution one more time: Before you take aim at one specific segment of this enormous industry you had better analyze your own position and realize exactly where you stand before you squeeze off the first round.

P.S. I had to look up Luddite. Like I said, I fly a DC6 because it's the best I could do. I don't look down my nose at jet pilots but I know some look down on my job because I wear work gloves and repeat to myself, "back straight, lift with the legs," as often I repeat, "pitch plus power equals performance."

Real flying? I don't know. But it feels like real work and that's not why I learned to fly.

Best.

 

[enigma]

p.s. Turbo, enigma, Mar-if the Wright bros were alive today, would they be posting here talking about whether Mar was doing REAL flying or not? Would they be critical of hydraulic assisted flight controls, system redundancies, or propulsion systems? Jeez, you guys sound like Luddites sometimes. I appreciate the more romanticized (strict definition of the word, please) aspects of flying, but...c'mon. It's been some years, but I think the quote was "...tide, time, and formation wait for no man!" I would add innovation to that list.

Orioncontract, I've been trying to accomplish a few other things lately, so I've not spent a lot of time here. In fact, I had to go re-read the string to see what you are talking about. I still don't know what you are talking about.

Luddite?

Let me say this. Just because mar does not fly an 'innovative" aircraft, doesn't mean that his worth as a pilot or a person are any less than myself, OR YOU. That's all I intended to say.

Now, are you an innovator?, or are you someone who flys innovative machines?

Ragging on a fellow pilot because he took the best job he could get at the time, and because that job happened to be flying an antique airplane, speaks volumes about how you personally value your fellow human beings.

I'll join you in ragging on those who intentionally undercut a fellow. Pilots who cross a picket line, or who buy their job, deserve our disrespect. Pilots like mar, who have done nothing more than take a job and fly da plane shouldn't be dissed.

enigma

 

[enigma]

mar, if it makes you feel any better, I know of at least one Spirit pilot whose previous experience consisted of flying DC-6's (also C46 and C47's) in AK. A couple, if not more, others came from Frontier Flying service where they flew t-props. You don't have to stay there forever ya know.
For me, I be happy to trade your Douglas for my Douglas. However, I doubt that you'd want my wife and kids

enigma

 

[mar]

Enigma

Hey man, thanks for the backup and the vote of confidence. I do surely appreciate it, but honestly I didn't feel like Orion was cutting me down as a person.

I think he was mostly just challenging the mentality that more simple forms of flight result in greater career satisfaction.

Who knows? Maybe the kid flying the kite at the park pulls down 100K/year.

At any rate, I've made the acquaintance of one Spirit pilot who flew for the same company I do (his initials: WW).

 

[orioncontract]

Turbo said:

I was going to stay out of this but Mar you are a real pilot doing real flying.

Enigma said:

Turbo, I too almost took up for my favorite liberal (MAR for any newbies) but didn't.

Mar said:

I think he was mostly just challenging the mentality that more simple forms of flight result in greater career satisfaction.

Mar-ding, ding, ding, ding, "We have a winner!"

Jeez, for the last time, I'm not ragging on anyone here except scabs and zits (although I was a bit heavy handed with Freep, but I was mentally fatigued by this one! Freep, you need to grow a thicker skin and live a little bit longer on this earth before you speak your mind again! BTW, duh I care about this issue, I started the post!!).

Ultimately I think the philosophical difference here is that I see the only solution as part of a team, because in my very team-oriented life (sports, military, aviation, marriage) everything I do is part of a whole. I'm no Borg, or communist (pure sense of the word) or democrat (pure sense-as opposed to a Democrat), but, nothing gets done by one person. (BTW, I think history may have some examples--check out accounts of the Revolutionary War and read the Federalist papers and I think you may find George Washington didn't do it on his own. You may even find some <--gasp--> idealism and some few that had the gall {or is it Gaul?} to think they could change things).

Forgive me please, if, unbidden, I tried to exercise a little leadership within our team and address the abuse of the word scab, and attempted to create a new sub-caste of pilot whom I deemed indifferent and hostile (knowingly or otherwise) to a common goal: the productive career of piloting.

If you don't see my opinion as valid, please tell me how we might influence events against the Lorenzos, the Ebbers, and the Dunlaps of our industry as individuals. If you agree that we can't do it singly, but don't agree with unions or union tactics (such as denial of the jumpseat to zits or scabs), please argue your point on how we might otherwise team up. Name-calling and empty rhetoric may be as satisfying as a good roll in the hay with Rosey Palm, but you'll just end up holding your own johnson (no offense to those of you actually named Johnson).

There is no I in team! (I know, I know, "But there is an m and an e"--smart alecks!)

-Coach Orion
"Was it over, when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!"

p.s. As an interesting side note on teamwork and unions, anyone see the post "Industry Average NB {narrowbody} Contract"? http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=36138
Nice thread, puts out some information (I wonder if it matches the stuff on the ALPA board under the Research Center link?), states an opinion that invites discussion.