Corollary to ALPA Scab list

[orioncontract]

Mar-if you ever return, (and I hope you do after you've done your homework), I got your age from your profile, which said you were born in '75, and I was stating my experience (little though that may be) with guys with a similar background as yours. I'm sorry you lost your post, it would've been somewhat interesting to see your response. I never said you weren't an airline pilot, I just said you admitted you didn't know the issue at hand, and that you should return when you did. I even suggested how you could get associated with the subject matter. Grow a thicker skin, man! And I am NOT condemning any part of the industry, just wondering out loud how you could have the attitude you do, especially in regards to pay, when my understanding of your position is that it doesn't pay well. Correct me if I'm wrong. And I'm not that good of a stick, although even a blind squirrel sometimes finds the nut. But I did have the world's best training, bar none (yes, that is a jibe at you Air Farce types). As Karl would say, "So I've got that going for me, which is nice."

Kerosene-I understand your frustration, but blaming LCC carriers is evident of a view of capatalism that is MUCH different than my own. Though I was very young when deregulation happened (curiously sponsored by, among others, Ted Kennedy!!!) it doesn't surprise me that when opened up to competition, prices fell thereby putting pressures on costs. Dell has done a similar thing in computers, driving down costs both by outsourcing and by relentlessly improving efficiencies of the process of marketing, selling, and making computers, in that order (itself a radical concept just 20 years ago). I view competition as a VERY GOOD thing, and not just because it gets me a cheaper, faster computer than could be gotten 20 or 25 years ago. We have the strongest economy in the world probably because we are so competitive that we are constantly innovating. And I foresaw that there would be those of you who would like a overly broad definition of a zit (or boil, or cyst), thus my attempt at trying to keep it as something we could actually use.

More later, wife beconeth...

FOCUS.

 

[727PAA]

I have to admit I am with Orion on this one. There are some glaring issues beyond the who is/are flying the RJ's as well as if they are replacing mainline flights. There are some management groups that are creating alter ego airlines ie "Freedom, Boston-Maine, etc." that are there just to break a union and purposely undermine the existing pilots negotiated contracts. The pilots that take those jobs know exactly what is happening and why they are being offered that job.

I agree that they shouldn't be labeled as SCAB's (until it fits), but, also I think that the people that work in this industry should know who these folks are.

I don't want to downplay the RJ issue for the mainline pilots, but what the Freedom, and Boston-Maine(727) pilots are doing is equivilant to COMAIR and ASA flying 777's. Wholly owned companies that are given the assets by their management and the pilots that go there to attempt to break a union.

What gets the pilots at Pan Am is that a few of the pilots that BMA has hired to break the ALPA union at Pan Am are furloughed TWA and United brethern...Wonder how they will get welcomed back!!

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Kerosene-I understand your frustration, but blaming LCC carriers is evident of a view of capatalism that is MUCH different than my own. Though I was very young when deregulation happened (curiously sponsored by, among others, Ted Kennedy!!!) it doesn't surprise me that when opened up to competition, prices fell thereby putting pressures on costs. Dell has done a similar thing in computers, driving down costs both by outsourcing and by relentlessly improving efficiencies of the process of marketing, selling, and making computers, in that order (itself a radical concept just 20 years ago). I view competition as a VERY GOOD thing, and not just because it gets me a cheaper, faster computer than could be gotten 20 or 25 years ago. We have the strongest economy in the world probably because we are so competitive that we are constantly innovating. And I foresaw that there would be those of you who would like a overly broad definition of a zit (or boil, or cyst), thus my attempt at trying to keep it as something we could actually use.

More later, wife beconeth...

FOCUS.

I never blamed any LCC's for what is happening. Heck they are the only ones out there paying a good wage AND making money.

Our main problem as pilots right now is managments view of the professional pilot. This is not a profession that a couple of months in trade school or a week of on the job training will prepare you for. Our problem is that we now have a new generation of pilots that are willing to trade 50 to 100 k worth of school, and years of experience for an 18k a year job! Or in your case, you have 10 years and 2 million dollers worth of Navy pilot training and experience (Assuming you were active duty prior to the reserve) that you are giving them for what 20k if your at a half way decent regional. I bet that your airlines top pay scale on the RJ is less than what you made chasing subs around in the P-3. While I am sure that you have your sights on SWA or DAL or whoever, to managment you are simply a warm body that they have conned into working for peanuts.

As long as the mentality exists that the RJ is not a real airliner, and as long as they can keep conning us into believing that a 90 seater is an RJ then we have zero chance of preserving a decent wage.

Chances are that your van driver that you tipped on your last trip makes alot more than you do as an RJ pilot.

As long as we keep moving the planes for the wages, the wages will continue to be poor.

But you are correct, it is all supply and demand.

 

[mar]

The dog ate my homework.

And I am NOT condemning any part of the industry, just wondering out loud how you could have the attitude you do, especially in regards to pay, when my understanding of your position is that it doesn't pay well. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Orion--Don't you think it's interesting that only a couple of people have taken the Freedom bait?

It was almost like a drive-by flaming.

So, I get to correct you if you're wrong, eh? I'm sorry. But you're wrong.

Last year, as a full time FO I made $45,000. This year as a reserve captain I expect to make closer to $60,000.

I may not be getting rich but I guarantee you it's better than what I could do at a regional flying an RJ on a route that used to be served with a 737 or MD-80.

Tell me you understand this point.

Tell me that I don't have to explain in excruciating detail why I think the RJ is bad for both customers and pilots (not to mention an already over-burdened ATC system).

You know, the thing is, we're both reasonable people. If I needed a job bad enough I'd take an RJ job. But here's the difference my friend: I wouldn't be so quick to judge other pilots who have taken jobs they're not too crazy about either.

Do you get my drift now? Am I being too subtle?

Look at it like this, in my current position I earn a respectable wage. But here, the operative word is "earn". Without mounting my high horse allow me to briefly describe what it's like to work on a DC6 in the beautiful state of Alaska.

First of all, it's old. Worn brakes, worn engines, bad paint jobs and scabby aluminum all translate into performance numbers that don't even approach book figures.

Then we pack 'er to the gills with all sorts of crap and fill 'er tanks with enough gas to fly to a real alternate, not the paper alternate.

Once there, we the pilots, will unload the crap and load up new crap, you know, about 28,000# worth each load.

And then there are the weather delays, mx delays, preflights, fueling, etc, etc, that we are not technically compensated for.

You follow me here? One could make the case that I've whored myself out because I'm doing work that I'm not being compensated for and as a result I'm hurting the collective condition of all working pilots.

But the truth is, we're all whores to some extent. But you'll never see me start a thread about scabs.

Now PFT, that's a different matter. Why? Because the way I see it, PFTers ain't got no skills to sell so they buy the opportunity.

Not only is it unethical but it's friggin' dangerous too. I won't stand for it.

Scabs, well, I've known a couple and at *least* they're qualified no matter what you think of them. And not only that but everyone is an individual and deserves to be treated as such.

Why can't you just admit that this industry isn't exactly what you thought it would be and stop blaming other people for it? We're all to blame. The pilot group, through the auspices of ALPA, in conjunction with short-term vicious management have all colluded to strangle the golden goose I referred to earlier.

Beyond that, I really doubt I can add much more to this conversation.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Here's something else:

To paraphrase Mark Twain, "everyone complains about pilot pay, but no one does anything about it".

Simply fighting for and working for better wages at your own airline is NOT, repeat NOT, "helping hold the bar up".

If you are not actively assisting other pilots with the same, you are simply working for a living.

Here's the $1,000,000 question: What are YOU willing to do in order to encourage pilots seeking employment from taking "sub-par" jobs?

Remember, you must prevent ANYONE and everyone from taking these jobs. If even a small percentage of pilots take the crappy job, then all that has happened is that you have reduced the hiring pool for crappy airlines.

Not many folks are probably going to go work for a freedom type operation, but it ONLY TAKES A FEW.

There will always be enough who are willing to take that job.

This leaves us with few options:

1) A national union with national pay rates for A/C type. (good luck)
2) Union thuggery against these pilots (really, now, most of us are above this, though I heard some stories about one of the big three)
3) Use of the jumpseat as a weapon. (the airline could beat this with positive -space tickets. like some fractionals, since they have no j/s to offer)

And that brings us to the option that most of you will use:

4) Cry and whine about the horrible "boils" who are destroying your poor little profession, without offering them any real option other than to not fly for a living.


By the way, the follwong argument proves that pilots, while smart, can be VERAY stupid.

The argument goes like this:

"I refused to work for peanuts and held out for a job at (insert good paying job here)."

Oh really, now?

Is your company able to hire the entire out-of-work pilot population? I bet not. What are the pilots supposed to do who are not offered such positions? Go flip burgers or sell cars until they finally get the call?

Anyone who suggests this can kiss my rear. I'm not going to let my career be used as a bargaining chip for someone else's.

If me taking a $25k job ruins your bargaing position, go into a field where there is less competition. Tough luck, pal.

The situation is NEVER GOING TO CHANGE, unless supply does, or demand does. It is simple economics. You may as well complain about gravity or the weather.

 

[orioncontract]

LowLead (aka 100LL)-option 3 is exactly what I'm talking about, although with some good leadership and dire enough straits, option 1 may be attainable yet. Excellent discussion, though; if #3 could happen, it would probably sufficiently discourage enough people to keep them from doing some of the more egregious PFT. Though not part of this thread's discussion, I think this is definitely a strong point against PFT.

Here's the $1,000,000 question: What are YOU willing to do in order to encourage pilots seeking employment from taking "sub-par" jobs?

Remember, you must prevent ANYONE and everyone from taking these jobs. If even a small percentage of pilots take the crappy job, then all that has happened is that you have reduced the hiring pool for crappy airlines.

A great point. ALPA should take this ball and run with it to evey Air, Inc. conference they can attend. The one and only one I attended was surprisingly full of young pilots that looked barely out of puberty. A well placed poster at an FBO, or a permanent billboard outside of PFT sites will make many a youngster think twice. Remember the banner on ALPAs website regarding Freedom? If you do, it'll make you think before you go down that road. If you don't, that's why I'm talking about advertising.

Mar-sounds like back-breaking work. I didn't know you got paid that much, but I also didn't know you worked so hard. You could do as well pay-wise at a few regionals, and definitely do better duty-day wise (from the sound of it) as far as I can tell from the research center portion of ALPA's website.

Between you and 100LL, I think a very good case has been made against PFT, but I completely disagree with what I perceive as your neutral tone towards Scabs, and I definitely think the answer is to at least fight back, thus the reason for me starting the thread. We need another weapon besides Scab, and you don't have one until you have consensus, which is what I'm trying to build here. But the thing about having a weapon is the will to use it, which I worry not enough of us have (including you Mar). And before anyone out there gets too wrapped up in the symbolizism here what I'm talking about is option 3. I think it would work (overweight aircraft happens all the time at Comair, and as the FAA makes everyone else adapt to heavier than previously assumed Americans with bigger bags, the problem will be more and more rampant, and the first to go are the non-revs).

Maybe it's my age (well, I still feel young, anyway), maybe the idealistic nature of my 4 years by the bay, but to just sit here and take it without attempting to change the situation is like...not voting...or just crying about how bad your community is without doing something about it.

As far as the RJ being bad for pax, I'm not sure I'd agree...sure the lav is cramped and horny couples would have to be pretty limber to get it on in there, but other than that...the rest I'd agree with, especially at some of the wages I've seen off the ALPA info.

But tell me, do you really think management would put an RJ on a route at a certain time if they could make $$ using an MD-80 or B737? (Although to hear Joe Leonard tell it, Delta's doing some of that pretty irrational stuff right now, but that's another story--God, I hope he's wrong) No they wouldn't--they're a greedy bunch, and it would improve their numbers, getting them bigger bonuses and more (and more valuable) options from stupid or crooked boardmembers.

And despite how I must have come across to you, Mar, the only group I'm trying to look down my nose at are these zits.

Remember, at the heart of this thread is solidarity, and the means to encourage it.

Finally, we get to the entree. Thanks LowLead.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Here's the only problem - the likelyhood for abuse for option #3 is high.

I think the better idea is for ALPA to make itself VERY present at campuses/training mills/wherever and EDUCATE the new pilots as to what the realities are.

Second ALPA needs to put pressure on the large academies with their PFT bridge programs. LOTS of pressure.

The student is spending far too much on training, the airline gets a cheap pilot, the profession suffers, so who benefits? The academies! Their blue-sky marketing and pref-hiring practives must be abolished, along with their advbertising that makes new students believe that an airline career is only a few months and $50,000 away.

I hate those schools.

 

[orioncontract]

Option 3 may be abused if there is no list, but if you can just pull out your scab and zit list and compare to the name on the jumpseating form you're looking at, it shouldn't be a problem, hence my effort here. Jumpseaters still have to check in with the CA before they go to the back.

Here's something else to chew on, what if McCain got baseball-style arbitration if we got a baseball-style union. In other words, the union represents you across the league, no matter who owns the team. I don't know much about labor law, or how baseball fits in under labor law, but don't baseball players get a league minimum?

 

[TurboS7]

I was going to stay out of this but Mar you are a real pilot doing real flying. The other day I did 4 legs for a regional airline back and fourth to the same destination. What a bore. I was in a glass cocpit with a great FO and a wonderful purser. But the smell of purple gas( I know you can't get it anymore but it is a memory) A uniform that consist of a flannel shirt, Sorrels, jeans, and a parka brings back great memories. Then there is nothing like counting blades then that great URRRAMMMMMMMM with a cloud of spitting smoke as the R-2800 comes to life. There is nothing like a departure out of Anchourage sliding over Knik Arm past little Sustina past Mt. Spur, Mt. Illiamnia, and the beautiful option of going VFR through Lake Clark Pass or burning up all that fuel to climb to 100 just to go IFR. Mar, you are living the life, enjoy every living minute of it, enjoy the 60K too as you have earned it the old fashion way, you worked for it.

 

[enigma]

Turbo, I too almost took up for my favorite liberal (MAR for any newbies) but didn't. I figure he can take care of himself, ................ and; why give him the big head?



enigma

 

[BoilerUP]

Capt. Frank Mayne has done a wonderful job attending career fairs and advisory councils at Purdue in my three years there, and he also is an annual presence at the national NIFA Safecon. Capt. Mayne does a great job connecting with the kids (people just like myself), but we need MORE OF IT!!!

I get extremely angry when I hear people my age say "All I wanna do is fly a jet" - I can almost hear the toilet flushing my chosen profession down the drain. If ALPA/APA/Teamsters/whoever can connect to the pilots at the collegiate level and make their point and be heard, I believe they would change a TON of minds. They certainly would have a captive audience for Mesa and XJT and CHQ and even CMR/ASA guys get up and talk about their situations and QOL. Have the ALG/PDT/PSA guys talk about the mess they are dealing with. Talk to the Colganites about the crap they put up with. Education is priceless, and it would be a great thing, IMO.

Flying the Line and Hard Landing need to be mandatory reading for every aspiring commercial pilot, but pilots, unions and their MECs need to get involved to make the change happen.

My $.02

 

[FearlessFreep]

Mar, Turbo you guys are on the right track or train of thought. The whole purpose of being in aviation is because you love and have a passion for it. This includes everyone that works in the field other than just pilots. If you doing it for mass quantities of money your in the wrong occupation. Most flying jobs just flat don't pay. The amount of time that you have off for your personal life pales in comparison to that afforded people that work a 40 hour week. Of course all of this very well known and should not have to be reiterated.

The thing is that we all make choices. Mar (and others) made the choice or were thrust into the circumstance of taking a path other than the well tred standard one of CFI to Regionals to Majors or the Military to Majors. So be it.

The point is with the options we have we make choices. Orion, let's take yours - Military to Regional and what appears to be long wait for the Legacy "Major" Carriers. Is any of the LCC's not good enough? The point is Orion you made a choice and now your not happy with it. So now what you are planning on doing is going out of your way to denigrate and damage peoples careers and lives that are not a member of your labor relations group based solely on YOUR preception that they have somehow impeded upon YOUR ability to make more money. You don't even know a fair amount of these people personally but you are only more than willing to go out of your way to damage their ability to make a living and make their lives miserable in a field of endeavor that is their passion.

Can things be better in our industry? Certainly. Is it productive to engage in vile, vindictive derision and further splinter an already loose affiliation of people? No.

The truth is Orion, you made your choice and now you don't want to live with it. You can only blame yourself for your own unhappiness, ( I will give you latitude regarding the events of 9/11) don't blame others for their choices. One day YOU will make a choice that will be unpopular or totally unacceptable to others. Would you like them to go after you like you propose going after those that YOU perceive slighted you? There are so many other variables involved with the quality of life (and pay) at wherever you work other than JUST the behavior of crewmembers and their labor representation, to think otherwise is to be unbelivably shallow and shortsighted. Wait till you work at a place that busts the union and the company does what they d**n well please. You are so pro union, but I can nearly bet money that you vote Republican. Now that is a contradiction in terms and is yet another choice that you might have made that you can be unhappy about.

P.S. If you are retired military don't you also have a pension to supplement your wages? A lot of people don't have that option available to them.

Anyway in closing - Relax and enjoy life, go tilt back a frothy one and be happy for what you do have,there are many that are in much more unfortunate straights than yourself.

Vaya Con Dios.

Have Fun, Fly Safe & Good Luck To Us All!

 

[Typhoon1244]

Scabs, well, I've known a couple and at *least* they're qualified...

...with the possible exception two of Lorenzo's finest who deliberately flew through an anvil cloud.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X24506&key=1

 

[mar]

Well, that was dumb.

<<EASTERN AIRLINE FLT 791 ENCTRD TURBULENCE WHILE EN ROUTE AT 31,000 FT AS IT FLEW THRU THE OVERHANG OF A THUNDERSTORM. FLT THRU OVERHANGS WAS CONTRARY TO THE COMPANY FLT OPNS PROCEDURES. THREE PSGRS RCVD SERIOUS INJURIES & ONE OF THESE (84 YRS OLD) DIED 20 DAYS AFTER THE ACDNT.>>

That was pretty stupid. I hope they were fired.

 

[enigma]

<<EASTERN AIRLINE FLT 791 ENCTRD TURBULENCE WHILE EN ROUTE AT 31,000 FT AS IT FLEW THRU THE OVERHANG OF A THUNDERSTORM. FLT THRU OVERHANGS WAS CONTRARY TO THE COMPANY FLT OPNS PROCEDURES. THREE PSGRS RCVD SERIOUS INJURIES & ONE OF THESE (84 YRS OLD) DIED 20 DAYS AFTER THE ACDNT.>>

That was pretty stupid. I hope they were fired.

Au Contrair mi amigo. Aside from the fact that they were scabs and should be shot. ( just puffery my friends, I don't want to shot anyone, well maybe AlQueda). Aside from that, this is a perfect opportunity for retraining. The Feds love to demand retraining, and I can't think of people who might need it more. Since they scabbed, they most likely weren't qualified to be in the seat to begin with, so their lack of experience was most likely the reason for their poor decision. Give em the training, they need it.

enigma

I realize that this happened long ago, my use of the present tense just happened. Maybe I got up on the wrong side of the bed, who knows!

 

[orioncontract]

Freep-I think you are attributing things to me which I did not say, or imply. Some of you guys did horribly on the SAT/ACT didn't you? Nevermind, I don't want to know--RTFQ. Or in this case, read the post. While I may be frustrated with my poor timing, the zit/boil/blister issue is one that affects all union pilots, regardless of current employer.

 

[FearlessFreep]

In the end you really have to understand that I don't care what you think. You are just a very sad mean spirited individual if the only thing you think worthy is to discuss people that you PERCEIVE slighted you.

I will say again that until you have experienced losing your job because your company broke the union that you still do not have a clue as to what your talking about. Wow! Those labor unions can really make a difference. Boy, My dues really did help me keep my job! Thank you so very much for that fine, first rate representation!

Where is the justice in a system where THE major pilot labor representation group sends a smaller council packing while they actively kiss the a**es of a richer more "Major" Council. As the members of the "Major" council make in 2-3 months MORE pay than the lesser council members make in a YEAR, it is very evident that the only motivating factor here is just how much money the union can collect. So much for the vaunted moral high ground.

Go ahead, go blindly follow your union bellwether and just see where it will lead you. The primary definition of bellwether as per the dictionary is " 1. A male sheep, usually castrated, with a bell hung from its neck, that is followed by a flock of sheep." The second definition is " One that is followed as a leader." Does that make all bellwethers castrated males? Followers of bellwethers are sheep? A lot can be construed with this one! Hmmm.

I feel very satisfied if the only thing you can think to do is attempt to insult my intelligence.

WTF. I am just very happy that I don't have to fly with you.

Go have some fun and stop worrying about what other people are doing with their lives or the choices they have had to make.

Adios

 

[orioncontract]

Go ahead, go blindly follow your union bellwether and just see where it will lead you.

I'm not sure I follow, even after your attempted definition. In any case, are we merely better educated 15 year olds with this bombastic talk of scrotumless sheep? "Dude, you don't have any cajones!" "Oh yeah, meet me after school, in the parking lot!" You can find all the archaic definitions you like, I've never heard bellwether ever used in those terms, though we haven't been an agrarian based economy or society in over, I'm guessing, 80 years, so I shouldn't be surprised that I haven't. Most will be familiar with its use as a synonym for "proxy", as in "FedEx is a bellwether transportation company; as FedEx goes, so goes the economy." I can try to insult your intelligence all I want, the only one who can feel insulted is you. Of course, if I have a lot of material, this becomes easy...

Forgive me for my jibe at those of you who aren't reading the question, my frustration got the better of me.

But I digress.

You can love a profession all you want, but if it doesn't provide food and shelter for the family and ensure their futures, what good is it? I wasn't a huge union guy when I was military, and I'm still not in favor of $80K/yr janitors with their own personal assistants (story I read not too long ago about what was wrong with the education system; specifically unionized NYC school system janitors "hiring" their wives onto the payroll because they could-it was part of the contract), but when there's a need, there's a need. And just because I wasn't a huge union guy, then or now, does not mean I was or am a huge company man. Greed is NOT good, but wanting to make money can be, especially in a well-regulated (not too much, not too little) market.

And no, I don't vote what I perceive to be in my own personal short term best interests, I vote what I think is best for the country, its future and our posterity, which frequently can be different. Those who vote their pocketbooks, and all one-issue voters, are fools, and selfish ones at that, IMO.

It's been brought to my attention (via PM) that I may be arguing with those who, through actions, predispositions, or lack of opportunity, might otherwise be on this proposed list, or on the scab list. I would hope one might be able to discern valid points from this thread, pro and con, yet I think it bears mentioning that management, zits, scabs and their sympathizers alike may be visiting, or even posting, to this thread. It never occurred to me that the thread may become dominated by that group, so I've not approached it with that mindset, until now. Please note, I am NOT accusing anyone, just that it hadn't occurred to me.

You don't even know a fair amount of these people personally but you are only more than willing to go out of your way to damage their ability to make a living and make their lives miserable in a field of endeavor that is their passion.

Passion has its place in this world, but when it overrides rational thought that's a problem. The purpose of this list would be to further a pilot's ability to "make a living", by encouraging solidarity. I'm fully aware of the consequences, so stop discussing it. Instead discuss alternatives to unions, or strategies to fight poor management strategies such as the "squeeze labor for concessions" business plans, or even the effectiveness of ALPA/Teamsters/APA/etc (my interest was piqued by your vague reference to union busting-case studies and even well-written anecdotes can be VERY useful, IMO). But speaking in emotional terms about passions and longing for the beauty of an Arizona sunset at FL330 just isn't productive.

p.s. Turbo, enigma, Mar-if the Wright bros were alive today, would they be posting here talking about whether Mar was doing REAL flying or not? Would they be critical of hydraulic assisted flight controls, system redundancies, or propulsion systems? Jeez, you guys sound like Luddites sometimes. I appreciate the more romanticized (strict definition of the word, please) aspects of flying, but...c'mon. It's been some years, but I think the quote was "...tide, time, and formation wait for no man!" I would add innovation to that list.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Gotcha!

You care much more about this issue than I do.

You just can't stand a dissenting opinion. Guess what, not everyone is going to do what you THINK they should do. There are people that work for companies that have unions and those that don't. I does not make it wrong to work for a company that does not have a union or for one that may have representation that is not to the level that you perceive as appropriate. If you wish to take YOUR definition to an extent that you intend for others you shouldn't be working flying RJ's period. They just don't pay people a liveable wage. You should quit, as you are cheapening the workforce in the same manner that you imply other people are. Matter of fact why don't we extend it and just attach a figure to your definition - Less than 50K a year made flying any aircraft make you a zit, boil, etc. A prostitute to capitalism! Oops, that includes me! Oh well. Good thing I defy definition!

Getting pilots as a group to agree on anything is like herding cats. Again I state, I am an individual and will defy being defined or pigeon holed by people who only see the world in monochromatic terms.

Oh, and FYI, I am neither a scab, zit or whatever stupid definition you might think may be applicable to anyone who does something other than the masses and popular opinion (not that I even care what you think). I have worked both union (the union lost my job for me), non-union and have not crossed a picket line.

Whatever bombast you might throw is NOT going to sway me to go to the same stupid party your at.

Take Care, Good Luck & Fly Safe! (And I mean this most sincerely)

Adios!

 

[TurboS7]

Tell you what. Take my name and emblaze it in red on the top of your SCAB LIST, ZIT list, Boil list or whatever you call it. Basically my impression is that the so called professional pilot is just a very insecure human being that has no ability to operate in the real world. Most seem to be real jerks too, if I were to read these threads from the outside that would be my impression. Since I have read post from others that are on this thread I know it is not so. Please don't make us all look like fools............

 

[mar]

The heart of the matter

Orion--Passion. Greed. Solidarity. Our own selfish interests. And "real" flying.

This is the heart of the matter.

Not to mention it's competitive as hell and dominated by males which means we must factor in the testosterone (by the way I'd prefer to keep my end of the discussion away from castrated sheep).

But please understand this: I ain't no scab and I don't look down my nose at those pilots who have never touched a pallet jack or fueled their own airplane or swept snow off their wings.

But let's be honest: Times are tough! Yes! But a lot of us don't know how good we've got it.

After all, why did you learn to fly? Well, you, Orion, probably have some higher calling like you wanted to serve your country.

I admire that.

Myself, I'm not so principled, I wanted to learn to fly because I never wanted to work for a living.

Flying airplanes is a GREAT way to make a living. I mean it's tough in some ways but it's pretty awesome in other ways too. I LOVE being a working pilot. I take great satisfaction in completing the job as efficiently as I can. I like our customers and I like our crews...well, most of them.

Some of the guys I work with seem to have a certain sense of entitlement. They were taught the pilot is responsible for everything. The pilot is the final authority. The pilot shall play the safety card whenever he can. Without the pilot the rubber dog crap dont' move.

Hmm.

The pilot is no better than the mechanic, ground crew, dispatcher or ticket agent. These are also my co-workers (or crew members, if you will).

So now it's my turn to digress. I don't mean to turn the discussion from the benefits of unionization or the degradation of the scab. If you and others truly feel that a discussion about how to screw other pilots out of a jumpseat is a worthwhile endeavor on this BBS, then please, have at it.

But I'll offer my original caution one more time: Before you take aim at one specific segment of this enormous industry you had better analyze your own position and realize exactly where you stand before you squeeze off the first round.

P.S. I had to look up Luddite. Like I said, I fly a DC6 because it's the best I could do. I don't look down my nose at jet pilots but I know some look down on my job because I wear work gloves and repeat to myself, "back straight, lift with the legs," as often I repeat, "pitch plus power equals performance."

Real flying? I don't know. But it feels like real work and that's not why I learned to fly.

Best.

 

[enigma]

p.s. Turbo, enigma, Mar-if the Wright bros were alive today, would they be posting here talking about whether Mar was doing REAL flying or not? Would they be critical of hydraulic assisted flight controls, system redundancies, or propulsion systems? Jeez, you guys sound like Luddites sometimes. I appreciate the more romanticized (strict definition of the word, please) aspects of flying, but...c'mon. It's been some years, but I think the quote was "...tide, time, and formation wait for no man!" I would add innovation to that list.

Orioncontract, I've been trying to accomplish a few other things lately, so I've not spent a lot of time here. In fact, I had to go re-read the string to see what you are talking about. I still don't know what you are talking about.

Luddite?

Let me say this. Just because mar does not fly an 'innovative" aircraft, doesn't mean that his worth as a pilot or a person are any less than myself, OR YOU. That's all I intended to say.

Now, are you an innovator?, or are you someone who flys innovative machines?

Ragging on a fellow pilot because he took the best job he could get at the time, and because that job happened to be flying an antique airplane, speaks volumes about how you personally value your fellow human beings.

I'll join you in ragging on those who intentionally undercut a fellow. Pilots who cross a picket line, or who buy their job, deserve our disrespect. Pilots like mar, who have done nothing more than take a job and fly da plane shouldn't be dissed.

enigma

 

[enigma]

mar, if it makes you feel any better, I know of at least one Spirit pilot whose previous experience consisted of flying DC-6's (also C46 and C47's) in AK. A couple, if not more, others came from Frontier Flying service where they flew t-props. You don't have to stay there forever ya know.
For me, I be happy to trade your Douglas for my Douglas. However, I doubt that you'd want my wife and kids

enigma

 

[mar]

Enigma

Hey man, thanks for the backup and the vote of confidence. I do surely appreciate it, but honestly I didn't feel like Orion was cutting me down as a person.

I think he was mostly just challenging the mentality that more simple forms of flight result in greater career satisfaction.

Who knows? Maybe the kid flying the kite at the park pulls down 100K/year.

At any rate, I've made the acquaintance of one Spirit pilot who flew for the same company I do (his initials: WW).

 

[orioncontract]

Turbo said:

I was going to stay out of this but Mar you are a real pilot doing real flying.

Enigma said:

Turbo, I too almost took up for my favorite liberal (MAR for any newbies) but didn't.

Mar said:

I think he was mostly just challenging the mentality that more simple forms of flight result in greater career satisfaction.

Mar-ding, ding, ding, ding, "We have a winner!"

Jeez, for the last time, I'm not ragging on anyone here except scabs and zits (although I was a bit heavy handed with Freep, but I was mentally fatigued by this one! Freep, you need to grow a thicker skin and live a little bit longer on this earth before you speak your mind again! BTW, duh I care about this issue, I started the post!!).

Ultimately I think the philosophical difference here is that I see the only solution as part of a team, because in my very team-oriented life (sports, military, aviation, marriage) everything I do is part of a whole. I'm no Borg, or communist (pure sense of the word) or democrat (pure sense-as opposed to a Democrat), but, nothing gets done by one person. (BTW, I think history may have some examples--check out accounts of the Revolutionary War and read the Federalist papers and I think you may find George Washington didn't do it on his own. You may even find some <--gasp--> idealism and some few that had the gall {or is it Gaul?} to think they could change things).

Forgive me please, if, unbidden, I tried to exercise a little leadership within our team and address the abuse of the word scab, and attempted to create a new sub-caste of pilot whom I deemed indifferent and hostile (knowingly or otherwise) to a common goal: the productive career of piloting.

If you don't see my opinion as valid, please tell me how we might influence events against the Lorenzos, the Ebbers, and the Dunlaps of our industry as individuals. If you agree that we can't do it singly, but don't agree with unions or union tactics (such as denial of the jumpseat to zits or scabs), please argue your point on how we might otherwise team up. Name-calling and empty rhetoric may be as satisfying as a good roll in the hay with Rosey Palm, but you'll just end up holding your own johnson (no offense to those of you actually named Johnson).

There is no I in team! (I know, I know, "But there is an m and an e"--smart alecks!)

-Coach Orion
"Was it over, when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!"

p.s. As an interesting side note on teamwork and unions, anyone see the post "Industry Average NB {narrowbody} Contract"? http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=36138
Nice thread, puts out some information (I wonder if it matches the stuff on the ALPA board under the Research Center link?), states an opinion that invites discussion.