Corollary to ALPA Scab list

[mar]

You're a smartass, and I like that.

Back to the subject, please...Focus, Dahniel-sahn, FO-CAHS. If we do this right, we might all learn a little.

Usually I wouldn't bother to respond, but I sort of enjoy your wit though I find it misplaced.

Look. I don't know JACK about Freedom Air or whoeverthehell they are. I've never even ridden on an RJ.

I was just trying to make a simple point:

You, sir, are new to the industry. Now I'm well aware that you honorably served (sorry. SERVE!) in the US Military. Thank you. Honestly. I couldn't have done it. But let's talk turkey, ok? That's *not* payin' yer dues in the airline industry.

You made the choice to go military. You weren't drafted. You knew the job was dangerous when you took it. Don't come crying to me because your wages are low even though you pulled off some real miraculous missions.

It's awesome. I swear to god. But it doesn't translate.

So.

To come on an aviation website and bitch about low wages when there's ALREADY a huge controversy that's been brewing ever since the wretched RJ made it's way into the nation's hubs....<big breath>....well, let's just say you might do better to just sit back and listen for awhile.

If you don't get it by now, I'm sure some mainliner will help explain it.

 

[TimsKeeper]

There are some warped opinions on what the word "selfish" means. A lot of people need reality checks, attacking others does not change that fact that they need that check.

Just because one was qualified for the "good" job when it was available doesn't make that person better than the one who is qualified but the "good" job isn't there due to economic circumstances.

The mainline is a job, you have no right to it. If you lose your job and don't want to wait for your number to be called go get another job and stop bitching about it. it's tought all around, get perspective.

 

[orioncontract]

Usually I wouldn't bother to respond, but I sort of enjoy your wit though I find it misplaced.

As Jack Nickolson's character Jack Napier once famously said, "I didn't ask."

I do COMPLETELY disagree with you about how I paid my dues, and I'm sure there are a TON of mainline guys whose career paths were almost exactly like mine except they had the good fortune to get out when there was hiring that would totally disagree with you about paying dues (in fact, at Delta in particular, that was THE career path of all but one of nine senior gentlemen I was fortunate enough to share lunch with one day), but I won't belabor that issue, as that's not the topic of the thread.

The Freedom Air guys, near as I can tell, are doing the same thing the Apple Air pilots of Texas Air holdings (ever hear of Lorenzo?) fame did to Eastern back before they went Tango Uniform. This thread is meant to discuss how self-destructive this is to pilots as a whole, as well as the zits themselves. I didn't start the thread to discuss less traditional (and more modern) scope issues such as RJ vs mainline. To me, it's analagous to B747 guys griping that B737/A320 point to point types are taking all of "their" flying, when it is possible (and probable) that there are really different issues at work.

As far as being new to the industry, I admit there are probably more issues I have yet to learn, that I don't yet intuitively understand yet, but this isn't rocket science, and I'm talking about a subject that is neither fundamentally complex nor requires much knowledge of airline history to thoughtfully discuss (Flying the Line and Flying the Line II are both excellent sources in this regard).

I do have one question for you: You're less than 30 years old and fly a DC-6, so I'm wondering why you hold such animosity towards the RJ and 'regional' pilots and why you talk as if you are a disappointed mainline pilot, when there's no indication you've ever progressed past the point where most people go to work for a regional in their stepping stone progress to the majors or nationals. I know the circumstances that brought me here, rather than somewhere else. Again, I've only been around civilian flying for 18 mos but I've already met lots of your type here that 'moved on.' Just trying to find out where you're coming from.

Simon-forgive me for mistakingly asking 350 Driver for the list. Would you please consider posting it here?

Enough about me, or Mar, let's talk about airline pilots. Wax on, wax off Daniel-sahns.

 

[orioncontract]

Actually Mar, since you admit you don't know the issues, I'm not sure why you're contributing. Go read about Apple Air, and check out some of the discussions about Freedom, then come back and read some responses on this thread before you try to discuss this further.

 

[Denizen]

Yeah Mar

I am sure you can reply on your own but....Quit that left seat of that **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed DC-6, you should have gone to a commuter airline by now. I mean come on how hard could flying in Alaska be anyhow.<for the dense, insert sarcasm here) Sheesh already, move on to an RJ, for 20k/yr what is the hold up? =)

 

[Eagleflip]

Orioncontract and everyone else--discuss the issue all you want, but please do not post any type of list on the board.

Thanx.

 

[mar]

I lost my post.

Orion--

I just spent 30 minutes responding to your post and then lost it. I'm on a public computer and I have to bolt.

Here's the short version:

You're right, I never should've responded since I'm not an "airline pilot".

By the way, I'm 36. I fly a DC6 because it's the best I could do.

Don't be so quick to condemn one segment of the industry when another may think similiar things about your job.

I'm sure you're a hell of a stick and probably cool to fly with.

Don't think (like a lot of ex-military pilots do) that you're entitled to a great airline job. First of all, they don't exist anymore. Second, some of us fly around in combat conditions every day but the ammo ain't live fire.

Peace man,
Good luck,
Best wishes.
I'm finished here.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Orion,

The problem you have with your "boil" list is that your definition of a boil can be attributed to every pilot who currently flies an RJ, union or not. It is no secret that nationwide the RJ is infesting routes that once were the domain of the 73 or DC-9. Almost 100% of the mainline routes that I flew with a 737 are now flown by a guy in an RJ for less than half the pay (in most cases two RJ's).

So the problem is not so much one of a "boil" as it is the willingness of the current crop of new pilots to keep accepting those 18k a year jobs so they can one day get to that high paying mainline job. The only problem is that it looks like the high paying mainline job is a thing of the past.

So while the new crop is cutting each others throats for the 18k a year ride in an RJ, managment is laughing and making plans to rid the industry of the few good paying jobs out there.

The day is quickly approaching the point when 90 an hour for 737 Captain is considered excellent pay.

Some interesting facts from the past.

In 1971 a Convair 580 Captain (Turbo prop 50 seater) made the same money as an RJ Captain does now, and I am not talking about adjusted dollers for 2004, I mean the same pay doller for doller.

In the mid 70's an airline First Officer on average could buy a mustang with one months pay, a Captain could drive away with a new Caddy. Today the Captain is doing good to get a base model Hyundi (sp?) if he is senior on a wide body.


As long as there are takers for the entry level 18k a year RJ pilot we will never again see the high paid airline pilot. It is simple supply and demand. I never thought I would see the day when the LCC's were the prime place to be hired.......until now.......anybody got a LOR for Southwest? I could get used to cow dung brown!!!!!!

 

[100LL... Again!]

The economic laws of supply and demand are immutable.
Unions can protect to a point, but cannot protect indefinitely.

How do you propose to create this "grass-roots" effort? What will happen to those who continue to hold out for better pay? How will you compensate them for lost seniority while others take positions?

Bottom line: You are living in a FANTASY WORLD if you think this can be accomplished without a national union with national pay scales. In other words, All CRJ drivers nationwide make the same $$.

You can't make people give up opportunities without massive organization, and group willpower.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

You can't make people give up opportunities without massive organization, and group willpower.

Exactly!, and that is why the days of the high paid airline pilot are forever gone. Give it another 10 years and the career will be as rewarding as driving a bus. (Which by the way already pays better than most regionals in a decent sized city.)

 

[orioncontract]

Mar-if you ever return, (and I hope you do after you've done your homework), I got your age from your profile, which said you were born in '75, and I was stating my experience (little though that may be) with guys with a similar background as yours. I'm sorry you lost your post, it would've been somewhat interesting to see your response. I never said you weren't an airline pilot, I just said you admitted you didn't know the issue at hand, and that you should return when you did. I even suggested how you could get associated with the subject matter. Grow a thicker skin, man! And I am NOT condemning any part of the industry, just wondering out loud how you could have the attitude you do, especially in regards to pay, when my understanding of your position is that it doesn't pay well. Correct me if I'm wrong. And I'm not that good of a stick, although even a blind squirrel sometimes finds the nut. But I did have the world's best training, bar none (yes, that is a jibe at you Air Farce types). As Karl would say, "So I've got that going for me, which is nice."

Kerosene-I understand your frustration, but blaming LCC carriers is evident of a view of capatalism that is MUCH different than my own. Though I was very young when deregulation happened (curiously sponsored by, among others, Ted Kennedy!!!) it doesn't surprise me that when opened up to competition, prices fell thereby putting pressures on costs. Dell has done a similar thing in computers, driving down costs both by outsourcing and by relentlessly improving efficiencies of the process of marketing, selling, and making computers, in that order (itself a radical concept just 20 years ago). I view competition as a VERY GOOD thing, and not just because it gets me a cheaper, faster computer than could be gotten 20 or 25 years ago. We have the strongest economy in the world probably because we are so competitive that we are constantly innovating. And I foresaw that there would be those of you who would like a overly broad definition of a zit (or boil, or cyst), thus my attempt at trying to keep it as something we could actually use.

More later, wife beconeth...

FOCUS.

 

[727PAA]

I have to admit I am with Orion on this one. There are some glaring issues beyond the who is/are flying the RJ's as well as if they are replacing mainline flights. There are some management groups that are creating alter ego airlines ie "Freedom, Boston-Maine, etc." that are there just to break a union and purposely undermine the existing pilots negotiated contracts. The pilots that take those jobs know exactly what is happening and why they are being offered that job.

I agree that they shouldn't be labeled as SCAB's (until it fits), but, also I think that the people that work in this industry should know who these folks are.

I don't want to downplay the RJ issue for the mainline pilots, but what the Freedom, and Boston-Maine(727) pilots are doing is equivilant to COMAIR and ASA flying 777's. Wholly owned companies that are given the assets by their management and the pilots that go there to attempt to break a union.

What gets the pilots at Pan Am is that a few of the pilots that BMA has hired to break the ALPA union at Pan Am are furloughed TWA and United brethern...Wonder how they will get welcomed back!!

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Kerosene-I understand your frustration, but blaming LCC carriers is evident of a view of capatalism that is MUCH different than my own. Though I was very young when deregulation happened (curiously sponsored by, among others, Ted Kennedy!!!) it doesn't surprise me that when opened up to competition, prices fell thereby putting pressures on costs. Dell has done a similar thing in computers, driving down costs both by outsourcing and by relentlessly improving efficiencies of the process of marketing, selling, and making computers, in that order (itself a radical concept just 20 years ago). I view competition as a VERY GOOD thing, and not just because it gets me a cheaper, faster computer than could be gotten 20 or 25 years ago. We have the strongest economy in the world probably because we are so competitive that we are constantly innovating. And I foresaw that there would be those of you who would like a overly broad definition of a zit (or boil, or cyst), thus my attempt at trying to keep it as something we could actually use.

More later, wife beconeth...

FOCUS.

I never blamed any LCC's for what is happening. Heck they are the only ones out there paying a good wage AND making money.

Our main problem as pilots right now is managments view of the professional pilot. This is not a profession that a couple of months in trade school or a week of on the job training will prepare you for. Our problem is that we now have a new generation of pilots that are willing to trade 50 to 100 k worth of school, and years of experience for an 18k a year job! Or in your case, you have 10 years and 2 million dollers worth of Navy pilot training and experience (Assuming you were active duty prior to the reserve) that you are giving them for what 20k if your at a half way decent regional. I bet that your airlines top pay scale on the RJ is less than what you made chasing subs around in the P-3. While I am sure that you have your sights on SWA or DAL or whoever, to managment you are simply a warm body that they have conned into working for peanuts.

As long as the mentality exists that the RJ is not a real airliner, and as long as they can keep conning us into believing that a 90 seater is an RJ then we have zero chance of preserving a decent wage.

Chances are that your van driver that you tipped on your last trip makes alot more than you do as an RJ pilot.

As long as we keep moving the planes for the wages, the wages will continue to be poor.

But you are correct, it is all supply and demand.

 

[mar]

The dog ate my homework.

And I am NOT condemning any part of the industry, just wondering out loud how you could have the attitude you do, especially in regards to pay, when my understanding of your position is that it doesn't pay well. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Orion--Don't you think it's interesting that only a couple of people have taken the Freedom bait?

It was almost like a drive-by flaming.

So, I get to correct you if you're wrong, eh? I'm sorry. But you're wrong.

Last year, as a full time FO I made $45,000. This year as a reserve captain I expect to make closer to $60,000.

I may not be getting rich but I guarantee you it's better than what I could do at a regional flying an RJ on a route that used to be served with a 737 or MD-80.

Tell me you understand this point.

Tell me that I don't have to explain in excruciating detail why I think the RJ is bad for both customers and pilots (not to mention an already over-burdened ATC system).

You know, the thing is, we're both reasonable people. If I needed a job bad enough I'd take an RJ job. But here's the difference my friend: I wouldn't be so quick to judge other pilots who have taken jobs they're not too crazy about either.

Do you get my drift now? Am I being too subtle?

Look at it like this, in my current position I earn a respectable wage. But here, the operative word is "earn". Without mounting my high horse allow me to briefly describe what it's like to work on a DC6 in the beautiful state of Alaska.

First of all, it's old. Worn brakes, worn engines, bad paint jobs and scabby aluminum all translate into performance numbers that don't even approach book figures.

Then we pack 'er to the gills with all sorts of crap and fill 'er tanks with enough gas to fly to a real alternate, not the paper alternate.

Once there, we the pilots, will unload the crap and load up new crap, you know, about 28,000# worth each load.

And then there are the weather delays, mx delays, preflights, fueling, etc, etc, that we are not technically compensated for.

You follow me here? One could make the case that I've whored myself out because I'm doing work that I'm not being compensated for and as a result I'm hurting the collective condition of all working pilots.

But the truth is, we're all whores to some extent. But you'll never see me start a thread about scabs.

Now PFT, that's a different matter. Why? Because the way I see it, PFTers ain't got no skills to sell so they buy the opportunity.

Not only is it unethical but it's friggin' dangerous too. I won't stand for it.

Scabs, well, I've known a couple and at *least* they're qualified no matter what you think of them. And not only that but everyone is an individual and deserves to be treated as such.

Why can't you just admit that this industry isn't exactly what you thought it would be and stop blaming other people for it? We're all to blame. The pilot group, through the auspices of ALPA, in conjunction with short-term vicious management have all colluded to strangle the golden goose I referred to earlier.

Beyond that, I really doubt I can add much more to this conversation.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Here's something else:

To paraphrase Mark Twain, "everyone complains about pilot pay, but no one does anything about it".

Simply fighting for and working for better wages at your own airline is NOT, repeat NOT, "helping hold the bar up".

If you are not actively assisting other pilots with the same, you are simply working for a living.

Here's the $1,000,000 question: What are YOU willing to do in order to encourage pilots seeking employment from taking "sub-par" jobs?

Remember, you must prevent ANYONE and everyone from taking these jobs. If even a small percentage of pilots take the crappy job, then all that has happened is that you have reduced the hiring pool for crappy airlines.

Not many folks are probably going to go work for a freedom type operation, but it ONLY TAKES A FEW.

There will always be enough who are willing to take that job.

This leaves us with few options:

1) A national union with national pay rates for A/C type. (good luck)
2) Union thuggery against these pilots (really, now, most of us are above this, though I heard some stories about one of the big three)
3) Use of the jumpseat as a weapon. (the airline could beat this with positive -space tickets. like some fractionals, since they have no j/s to offer)

And that brings us to the option that most of you will use:

4) Cry and whine about the horrible "boils" who are destroying your poor little profession, without offering them any real option other than to not fly for a living.


By the way, the follwong argument proves that pilots, while smart, can be VERAY stupid.

The argument goes like this:

"I refused to work for peanuts and held out for a job at (insert good paying job here)."

Oh really, now?

Is your company able to hire the entire out-of-work pilot population? I bet not. What are the pilots supposed to do who are not offered such positions? Go flip burgers or sell cars until they finally get the call?

Anyone who suggests this can kiss my rear. I'm not going to let my career be used as a bargaining chip for someone else's.

If me taking a $25k job ruins your bargaing position, go into a field where there is less competition. Tough luck, pal.

The situation is NEVER GOING TO CHANGE, unless supply does, or demand does. It is simple economics. You may as well complain about gravity or the weather.

 

[orioncontract]

LowLead (aka 100LL)-option 3 is exactly what I'm talking about, although with some good leadership and dire enough straits, option 1 may be attainable yet. Excellent discussion, though; if #3 could happen, it would probably sufficiently discourage enough people to keep them from doing some of the more egregious PFT. Though not part of this thread's discussion, I think this is definitely a strong point against PFT.

Here's the $1,000,000 question: What are YOU willing to do in order to encourage pilots seeking employment from taking "sub-par" jobs?

Remember, you must prevent ANYONE and everyone from taking these jobs. If even a small percentage of pilots take the crappy job, then all that has happened is that you have reduced the hiring pool for crappy airlines.

A great point. ALPA should take this ball and run with it to evey Air, Inc. conference they can attend. The one and only one I attended was surprisingly full of young pilots that looked barely out of puberty. A well placed poster at an FBO, or a permanent billboard outside of PFT sites will make many a youngster think twice. Remember the banner on ALPAs website regarding Freedom? If you do, it'll make you think before you go down that road. If you don't, that's why I'm talking about advertising.

Mar-sounds like back-breaking work. I didn't know you got paid that much, but I also didn't know you worked so hard. You could do as well pay-wise at a few regionals, and definitely do better duty-day wise (from the sound of it) as far as I can tell from the research center portion of ALPA's website.

Between you and 100LL, I think a very good case has been made against PFT, but I completely disagree with what I perceive as your neutral tone towards Scabs, and I definitely think the answer is to at least fight back, thus the reason for me starting the thread. We need another weapon besides Scab, and you don't have one until you have consensus, which is what I'm trying to build here. But the thing about having a weapon is the will to use it, which I worry not enough of us have (including you Mar). And before anyone out there gets too wrapped up in the symbolizism here what I'm talking about is option 3. I think it would work (overweight aircraft happens all the time at Comair, and as the FAA makes everyone else adapt to heavier than previously assumed Americans with bigger bags, the problem will be more and more rampant, and the first to go are the non-revs).

Maybe it's my age (well, I still feel young, anyway), maybe the idealistic nature of my 4 years by the bay, but to just sit here and take it without attempting to change the situation is like...not voting...or just crying about how bad your community is without doing something about it.

As far as the RJ being bad for pax, I'm not sure I'd agree...sure the lav is cramped and horny couples would have to be pretty limber to get it on in there, but other than that...the rest I'd agree with, especially at some of the wages I've seen off the ALPA info.

But tell me, do you really think management would put an RJ on a route at a certain time if they could make $$ using an MD-80 or B737? (Although to hear Joe Leonard tell it, Delta's doing some of that pretty irrational stuff right now, but that's another story--God, I hope he's wrong) No they wouldn't--they're a greedy bunch, and it would improve their numbers, getting them bigger bonuses and more (and more valuable) options from stupid or crooked boardmembers.

And despite how I must have come across to you, Mar, the only group I'm trying to look down my nose at are these zits.

Remember, at the heart of this thread is solidarity, and the means to encourage it.

Finally, we get to the entree. Thanks LowLead.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Here's the only problem - the likelyhood for abuse for option #3 is high.

I think the better idea is for ALPA to make itself VERY present at campuses/training mills/wherever and EDUCATE the new pilots as to what the realities are.

Second ALPA needs to put pressure on the large academies with their PFT bridge programs. LOTS of pressure.

The student is spending far too much on training, the airline gets a cheap pilot, the profession suffers, so who benefits? The academies! Their blue-sky marketing and pref-hiring practives must be abolished, along with their advbertising that makes new students believe that an airline career is only a few months and $50,000 away.

I hate those schools.

 

[orioncontract]

Option 3 may be abused if there is no list, but if you can just pull out your scab and zit list and compare to the name on the jumpseating form you're looking at, it shouldn't be a problem, hence my effort here. Jumpseaters still have to check in with the CA before they go to the back.

Here's something else to chew on, what if McCain got baseball-style arbitration if we got a baseball-style union. In other words, the union represents you across the league, no matter who owns the team. I don't know much about labor law, or how baseball fits in under labor law, but don't baseball players get a league minimum?

 

[TurboS7]

I was going to stay out of this but Mar you are a real pilot doing real flying. The other day I did 4 legs for a regional airline back and fourth to the same destination. What a bore. I was in a glass cocpit with a great FO and a wonderful purser. But the smell of purple gas( I know you can't get it anymore but it is a memory) A uniform that consist of a flannel shirt, Sorrels, jeans, and a parka brings back great memories. Then there is nothing like counting blades then that great URRRAMMMMMMMM with a cloud of spitting smoke as the R-2800 comes to life. There is nothing like a departure out of Anchourage sliding over Knik Arm past little Sustina past Mt. Spur, Mt. Illiamnia, and the beautiful option of going VFR through Lake Clark Pass or burning up all that fuel to climb to 100 just to go IFR. Mar, you are living the life, enjoy every living minute of it, enjoy the 60K too as you have earned it the old fashion way, you worked for it.

 

[enigma]

Turbo, I too almost took up for my favorite liberal (MAR for any newbies) but didn't. I figure he can take care of himself, ................ and; why give him the big head?



enigma