Copilot Flying

[G100driver]

I'm flying with a gentleman right now who, althrough he has considerable experience in type and with this kind of operation, I cannot turn by back on, for even a moment. He's a cowboy and a hazard, and though he's been in the business a long time, he's definitely not a safe pilot. Part of my job right now is to keep him from damaging everything. We trade off legs and seats each time, but regardless of who is flying, I treat the flight as mine as a matter of self preservation. The operator knows this, and is aware of his behaviors. He's severely damaged airplanes in the past. This present operation runs somewhat outside the law, it's accountability is low, and if I intend to remain both safe and legal, it's entirely up to me to pull in the reigns. And I do.

Avbug, for guy who hold people accountable for their professionalism or lack there of in many cases this is disturbing. Why would you ever want to be in the cockpit with someone you cannot trust? I am not going to preach to you, but this is really weird.

Not everything is an airline. Nor should it be.

True, but they have a much better track record than wwe do when it come to training and safe operations. I always wonder why we out here in corporate keep on trying to re-invent the wheel.

 

[Viffer]

Airlines have their SIC's flying a LOT of passengers from their first flight on, and in a lot of cases those pilots have precious little flight time under their belts. They also fly those legs with zero time in the actual plane, only initial sim training. Their first landing could be with over 100 passengers. They do it fine. There is nothing wrong with having the people you hire the FLY THE PLANE, actually FLY THE PLANE. If you feel the need to shelter them from pax, and otherwise consider them incapable to perform the job of flying the airplane then you hired the wrong person. Pilots advance by doing and learning, not from being sheltered. Will a new pilot be the smoothest on the controls in their first few hours with a new type? Most likely not. Will they learn quicker if they are on every other leg, and with the boss in back? Absolutely! Big-break or not, if you hire and pay someone as a pilot they are owed the chance to fly the plane, from the very begining. In a lot of cases the progress new guys make, myself included, is much faster when they are not babied or sheltered. Let them know that the boss is watching. Let them get their heads in the decision making process. There should never be a situation where a pilot is put into a plane and not trusted to be able to handle it, and not allowed to function as a pilot. Sometimes this is because a company hires zero time pilots cheap, other times it's because of some unprofessional attitude of certain 'captains' or flight operators. Whatever the reason, we're all pilots, all employed to fly the plane, and all deserve the profession respect and trust to actually do that. From day one.

 

[avbug]

Two parts to go:

hmmmm, I wonder what everyone thinks of you.

I don't care.

Avbug, for guy who hold people accountable for their professionalism or lack there of in many cases this is disturbing. Why would you ever want to be in the cockpit with someone you cannot trust? I am not going to preach to you, but this is really weird.

I do hold individuals accountable for issues of professionalism. I babysat this individual twice; the first time I was not aware of the details of his employment nor background. He lost control of the airplane on an arrival into PDX when he was given a slow down and go down clearance. He thumbed out the spoilers, locked his thumb over them, and kept going down and slowing down despite multiple airspeed and altitude calls from me. When it became apparent he was not responding, I pried his thumb off the spoiler sitch and reracted the, pushed the power up, and took control. He retarde the power and thumbed out the spoilers, at this point below his assigned altitude on the arrival with rapdily decreasing airspeed. I physically removed him from the controls, recovered and barked at him very loudly, stating that I had control of the aircraft. He blinked, turned slowly to look at me and said, "you don't need to yell." When we got on the ground, he asked if I wantd to fly home, and I told him that wasn't in question. I flew home. I reported the matter to the chief pilot. I also turned in a strongly worded letter recomending his immediate firing.

I then counseled with other pilots in the company, and learned of similiar experiences. Some months later I was assured he had been retrained, and the CP vouched for him. I was called for a late flight to LAX. This pilot was visibly nervous about flying into LAX. When we landed, he became a nervous wreck. I managed to hold his hand into Garret Avaition, where we counseled on what had happened. He seemed to get his bearings, and I hoped at that point that he had been a little overwhelmed by busy airspace, and would be able to complete the return trip home. I determined it would be my last flight with him. My purpose was to keep him out of trouble and serve as a SIC to him, but I was unable to allow him that much control, and retained it in a supervisory capacity from the right seat.

As it happened, on departure, off 25L, he did the same thing. We got a door annunciator. It happened at a low enough airspeed I called abort, abort, abort. He made no response. We were lightand rapidly accelerating. I glanced at the door handles and determined they were in position; It was a switch error, not uncommon the type, and I was of the mind that continuing presented far less hazard than trying to wrestle a high speed abort from him over a light. As we came off the ground I said "positive rate." No response. I said "positive, rate, I have your gear." No response. I called the flap speed, no response. I repeated the speed, and said Í have your flap. No response. Then I called out the after takeoff checklist, and upon conclusion, pointed to the annunciator, and said "are you aware you have a door lïght?"

He came unglued. He wanted to declare an emergency, turn around and land the opposite direction, and wanted to know what I thought we should do. I told him we'd fly the DP and when we were out of the terminal area, I'd verify the door handle position swith per the checklist. We went home, I turned in another strongly worded letter, and had nothing more to do with him.

I later learned he didn't have the experience he claimed. I learned he had been hired and employed at his own suggestion that he was independently wealthy, and he had offered to work without a wage, and buy his own type just to have something to do. I learned experienced F/O's had been bumped from upgrade because of his action. I had a heated confrontation with the CP over it. The CP made a quasi proposal to back his side of the equation by suggesting I self-fund a type for one of the larger aircraft he company flew, and get it back with a large wage increase. I told him not in a million years, that I wouldn't work for a company that operated like that and I walked out.

There's usually more to the story, and there is...but that's enough.

I'd say, while the co-pilot is new it's not uncommon for him to only fly empty legs untill the capt's can gain some confidense in him.

It's not uncommon at all. I flew for a fractional operation. When beginning a tour with a new F/O, I'd always buy the F/O dinner, and talk. Get to know a little about the F/O. I've always believed in coming to an understanding about philosophies and what we each expect, especially if we're going to be on the road together for a week. The first flight of the tour was usually mine. After that, it was entirely up to the F/O. The company hired some great individuals who I recommended for upgrade, and who are now Captains. The company also hired some who could be described as nearly completely incompetent. two of whom I recommended firing (and who were both fired), and one for whom I grounded the aircraft and stopped the tour because the incompetence seemd to know no bounds. They are out there. Certainly they're in the minority, or in my experience they are. I've seen them in the F/O seat, and in the captain seat. I've seen them in the Chief Pilot seat. I've seen dangerous and questionable behaviors and attitudes in respected and experienced pilots who should have been put to pasture long ago, but for their laurels. I'll go so far as to say I'm working with one now, and have forwarded paperwork to state as much. Doing less would be unprofessional.

 

[avbug]

Big-break or not, if you hire and pay someone as a pilot they are owed the chance to fly the plane, from the very begining.

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! You are owed NOTHING. And when you fly with me, you prove yourself. I owe you nothing. The arrogance today never fails to boggle the mind. You think the world owes you something. YOU are the begger, you come to the table hat in hand. You don't own the company. You don't own the aircraft.

Particularly with a company outside the airline environment, the company gives that aircraft to the Captain and entrusts him with it. The final say regarding the safe outcome of the flight and the professional conduct thereof is that of the Captain. In my cockpit, if you're up to the task, you're going to fly. If you need work, you're going to fly empty legs. If you're not up to the task, you're probably not going to fly. I don't hire you, but when you get in my airplane, I'm tasked with making those decisions based on professional judgement and the bottom line is it's up to YOU. Don't try for one moment to cop the attitude that you're owed something. You're NOT!!!.

Let them get their heads in the decision making process.

You may rest assured that in my cockpit, you're a big part of the decision making process. I view the First Officer as required equipment. The status of that equipment is in the hands of the F/O, subject to my approval, and I'd hope the F/O views me with the same suspect eye. When you catch me in a mistake and correct me you certainly won't be the first, and you'll most definitely not be the last. And I'll thank you. I'll ask your opinion, your insight, your suggestion, and I'll listen. If I'm PIC, I reserve the right to accept or reject that information, but make no mistake, the input is valueable. It's always a team effort, but the best coaches decide when and where to put their players on the field that best suits the game, the player, and the team. So do I. The biggest deciding factor by orders of magnitude, in making those decisions...is YOU.

If they do not let you fly as a co-pilot, How will you ever learn how to be a Captain?

A favorite line of mine. I believe in teaching on the line, and in learning on the line I also expect someone to arrive ready to play. One F/O, to whom I've previously referred, used to say that. "it's your job to make me a captain."

No, sir. It's not. I'm not paid to do that. I have been a trainer before. In his case, I held a company qualification as a line training captain and IOE captain, but guess what...the company wasn't paying me the extra wage. They had enough to do that. And this guy wasn't in the upgrade pipeline yet. In fact, he never made it; he was fired. Yet he insisted he had been hired, and he was owed the chance to fly, and insisted that my job was to make him a captain. No.

His job, and his pay grade, was as a F/O. Mine as a captain. I was employed as the pilot in command, he as the second in command. I fully expected that he would expend any necessary effort to rise to the challange and prepare himself for a captain position, and I told him that I'd support him in that effort. The problem was, he socialized. He didn't study. Ten months later he still didn't know the memory items on the checklist. He knew nothing about systems. Repeatedly did stupid things in the cockpit. So much so he was a favorite sore point of conversation among captains on the road. He was a known quantity. My letters recommending his dismissal were on a pile of others. And ultimately he was let go for failure to complete recurrent training satisfactorily. Not because of my letter, or that of any other captain who recommended he be fired. I didn't make the hiring and firing decisions there, nor did I choose who went with me on a tour. I've been saddled with some fine people who are now fine captains, and I've been roped in with some real klutzes, too. We don't always get to choose, and some organizations are better than others. I've seen it at most levels in the industry...more than a few of you know exactly what I mean.

I can't force someone to become a Captain. Personal responsibility is not dead. I'll bend over backward to help someone if they want it and they show they want it. But I won't lift a finger to help those who think the world owes them something and who believe learning is by osmosis. The choice is theirs, not mine to make. How they make it determines what they do and don't do in the cockpit, and that IS my choice to make.

 

[Viffer]

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! You are owed NOTHING. And when you fly with me, you prove yourself. I owe you nothing. The arrogance today never fails to boggle the mind. You think the world owes you something. YOU are the begger, you come to the table hat in hand. You don't own the company. You don't own the aircraft.

Particularly with a company outside the airline environment, the company gives that aircraft to the Captain and entrusts him with it. The final say regarding the safe outcome of the flight and the professional conduct thereof is that of the Captain. In my cockpit, if you're up to the task, you're going to fly. If you need work, you're going to fly empty legs. If you're not up to the task, you're probably not going to fly. I don't hire you, but when you get in my airplane, I'm tasked with making those decisions based on professional judgement and the bottom line is it's up to YOU. Don't try for one moment to cop the attitude that you're owed something. You're NOT!!!.

The only arrogance displayed here, is yours. You are not the owner of the airplane, you are not anything other than a required flight crewmwmber, same as the co pilot. You are trusted to do your job competently, the same as the co pilot, and if either of you are not up to doing just that, then you are the wrong person for the job. Simple as that. If a pilot really can't fly, the captain needs to address that with management and protect the airplane, and no one is in disagreement with that. Don't let the PIC responsibility go to your head. Yes we are responsible for everything when we sign for the plane, and yes sometimes we need to foster a new or lessor experienced pilot along. This does not mean they are ANY less capable than we are, and when they are hired into a job they ARE owed the opportunity to DO THIER JOB. I did not say they were owed a job, but that is what you read into my statements. That means flying the airplane, no matter how much better and superior you feel your skills are. They are paid and put in place to do their job, and their share of the flying duties, by the very same boss as you. They have also proven themselves to your boss enough to have been offered a job, and they are owed the chance to do it and excel at it, whether you think so or not. They don't need to 'prove themselves' to you either, they only need to be safe, capable and competent, and fly by the company procedures. If they do that and you still feel they have to prove something, you have other issues at work. Now, I am not saying that the PIC should share or shirk responsibility, not at all. I am saying that these are crews, and each has a role to fill. Your job is to make sure nothing goes wrong while they are doing the flying, but it is not to prevent them from flying. That is part of a PIC's job description, and it's not an extra burden on a PIC to have a new co pilot. It's a basic role. It's also not a bonus to them for you to 'let' them fly the plane. It's a requirement of THEIR job description as a company SIC.

 

[CaptainSpaz]

Ok, lets set the record straight for the topic starter, once and for all:

The Standard - Qualified FOs fly every other leg.

The BS - Anything else.

And thats a fact, no matter what Capt. Lear McCowboy tries to tell you.

Cheers,
Spaz

 

[Flybet3]

The problem is that alot (not all) corporate pilots think that they are Gods gift to aviation. I remember that i gave a practice checkride to a director of operations and the joker aborted takeoff after V1 and I mean like 10 knots after V1!!!! But when we mentioned to him that we had a 2000 hour qualified guy that needed a job he arrogantly said "we dont even look at guys with 3000 hours" what a d**k!! But its ok I've seen corporate dou*he bags fail 121 check rides b/c of their lack of CRM and blow interviews b/c of their poor personality skills. I've seen brand new FO's in airlines fly passangers and make small mistakes, but nothing dangerous, no biggie. But for some reason small corporate flight departments especially single airplane flight departments seem to have the bigges problem with co** sucking micro-managers who think that they have all the answeres and think that if only they fly everything from the take off and landing will be smooth. Next time you meet one of those just tell them to suck it!

 

[Viffer]

Ok, lets set the record straight for the topic starter, once and for all:

The Standard - Qualified FOs fly every other leg.

The BS - Anything else.

And thats a fact, no matter what Capt. Lear McCowboy tries to tell you.

Cheers,
Spaz

Now that is exactly the point I've been trying to make, in about 1000 fewer words. Nice!:beer:

 

[DC8 Express]

I had a corporate job that had rules against letting the F/O fly except on empty legs. I would usually let the F/O fly from the left seat. In addition I would make them file flight plans and do all the Captain duties.

I took this opportunity to train F/O's to help them become Captain qualified someday while respecting the reality and the responsibility that comes with becoming a defacto Captain.

I can think of 3 former F/O's that I flew with that quickly rised through the ranks and are now Airline Captains. I get Christmas cards from all 3 of them every year thanking me for giving them a chance when other Captains would use the "gear up shut up" method.

Can't tell you the number of times I've seen Captains that went on to greener pastures leaving the F/O to struggle through a type ride because he/she was never given a chance.

try it

 

[Captain Morgan]

Thanks for all the replies. It's comforting to know that the there are good corporate flight departments out there that do care and take care of their people. Right now I'm stuck in pure corporate hell. It's my first corporate job, so I really didn't know what to expect. Here's a little sample. I never noticed, but just found out that the DO/CP keeps his answering machine in a locked wooden box behind his desk so that no one can get to it. When he listens to his messages he turns the volume all the way down and puts his ear down close. When I heard this I just couldn't believe it, so I had to look for myself. Sure enough, behind the desk there it was. A wooden box with a lock just like a high schooler might make in shop class, complete with a cord poking out the side. While this is rediculous and harmless at the same time. The person's paranoid attitude carries over into the cockpit and in everything. Right now I'm just looking for my exit. Thanks again.

CM

 

[thatpilotguy]

The longer you are in the corporate world you will begin to see that guys like this are every where. I may be a little out of place here but I think that it's a good idea if everyone gets a little taste of them...It's a reminder of what not to do when you are in the position to guide a new crew member through the ranks. Like many here I have flown with good guys and guys with questionable behaviors, all have which have helped shape me in one way or another.

Personally as an FO for previous operators it seems to be a norm flying empty legs until you are comfortable, then live legs from the right seat, followed by every other leg or every other day, from the left seat depending on the operation and equipment.

 

[CarjCapt]

Been there done that

Been fortunate to do some contract work as a FO in a CL60 (601) after my retirement. I quickly found out that my job was as "seat filler", and that wasn't going to change. While I would have enjoyed being trained as a FO in the Challenger I had no illusions that they would spend the money. I was 61.58 current in the CL65 and if the Captain expired there was no doubt I could get it on the ground safely.

My total time and experience exceeds both the Captain and Co-Captain combined but it doesn't mean that my ego is so large that I feel bad about not being able to actually fly the aircraft. I am happy to be paid to sit in the right seat, talk on the radio, say V1, Rotate, V2, positive rate and contribute to a safe operation.

Maybe some day the opportunity will present itself to again be PIC and give the FO the benefit of adding to their experience level, then again maybe not.

 

[Raskal]

My company is similar, deadheads from the right, then left seat until comfortable then every other leg. It seems to work out ok for most of the new guys, although management tends to drag its feet on pretty much everything unless there is a need.

One thing I have to agree with though, I have never run into as much ego in my life as I have in business aviation. Ironically (or not) the maniacal egos seem to be attatched to the sh!tt!est pilots in the air. You know, the ones for whom the regs/mins/procs only apply to everyone else.

Really, the only time I've ever run into as much ego as you can find daily in the lounges of TEB, PBI, IAD etc is when I happen to be sharing a bar with an airline captain from one of the legacy carriers. Hell, it's downright amazing that, judging from the number of idiots out there, anything attatched to a turbine gets anywhere.

 

[avbug]

Been fortunate to do some contract work as a FO in a CL60 (601) after my retirement. I quickly found out that my job was as "seat filler", and that wasn't going to change. While I would have enjoyed being trained as a FO in the Challenger I had no illusions that they would spend the money. I was 61.58 current in the CL65 and if the Captain expired there was no doubt I could get it on the ground safely.

My total time and experience exceeds both the Captain and Co-Captain combined but it doesn't mean that my ego is so large that I feel bad about not being able to actually fly the aircraft. I am happy to be paid to sit in the right seat, talk on the radio, say V1, Rotate, V2, positive rate and contribute to a safe operation.

Maybe some day the opportunity will present itself to again be PIC and give the FO the benefit of adding to their experience level, then again maybe not.

Now this is really part of the key to the whole problem. Here we have a poster who is really quite qualified to do the job, and the company can't be bothered to spend the few dollars to provide the necessary training. In this poster's case, it would certainly be money well spent. He could probably get through on a recurrent class alone and take the checkride, or most of it, and finish with the operator...and would probably be content to stick around more than long enough to make it worth the operator's worthwhile. Instead, the operator isn't going to spent the money; the operator is too busy sawing to take time to sharpen the saw.

I've seen this many times. Operators hire cheap. They train in house. They won't spend the money, and subsequently the captain is flying with a kid fresh out of flight instructing who is far out of his element...his only training was "here are the books kid. Good luck." Is the captain supposed to hand the airplane to the kid on his first passenger leg because "it's his turn?" Not a snowballs chance. Is the captain supposed to let him do it in a crosswind to minimums on a contaminated runway at night? Nope. Not gonna happen.

How's he ever going to learn to be a captain? With time, on the empty legs until he has the experience and the skill and the understanding to fly it professionally enough that the passengers wouldn't know the difference. That's how. And hopefully with a company that thinks enough of him to send him to school instead of sticking the captain with a new know-nothing kid and...and expecting that he train the kid on live legs with passengers.

Today we're seeing more and more companies that won't hire unless the applicant has the type. They won't spend the money, and for domestic flights and SIC's won't type the SIC. It's not uncommon at all, which is really the question posed to start the thread. It may be the captain's policy, it may be the company policy (I've seen both), it may be an internal policy such as the counsel of the chief pilot, it may be employee specific (Joe flies every other leg, but Ed only flies the empty legs). There may be many reasons. Is Ed getting less quality experience because he's flying empty legs instead of passenger legs? Nope. Some of the operations I've flown, there were more at least as many empty legs, as every other leg was empty...out and back, out and back...the F/O flew the empties. At least one operation where I flew, we had twice as many empty legs as the full legs, and the F/O flew those, too. Other F/O's flew more...again, it was up to the F/O. A few flew far less...entirely up to the capabilities of the F/O.

 

[NW Flyer]

As a new jet F/O, I had to learn quickly if I wanted any stick time. I was initially only allowed to fly on empty legs (probably for the best, I was GREEN!), and the Captain would take the plane from me if whatever I was doing wasn't perfect (by his standards). Can't say I think his methods were right, but they did force me to become a better pilot!

At my current gig, everyone is captain qualified, we swap seats every day.

 

[Bullitt]

I'm pretty much in the same corporate hell as you are in right now Captain Morgan. I am currently riding shotgun in a Citation II flying out of the DFW area. I fly with an older gentleman that refuses to swap every other leg with me. I absolutely agree that it is the captain's decision regarding whether or not the FO is allowed to fly and that does not bother me in the least. He is the one in the left seat and the decision is entirely up to him. I don't want to sound like I am owed anything because believe me I am not. I don't mind sitting in the right seat for awhile, running the checklist and radios until the captain feels comfortable enough to let me fly.

In my current situation however, I feel that paranoia is the reason I am not allowed to fly with passengers on board. His behavior and his flying for that matter have become more and more erratic of late and he keeps talking about people that are trying to "steal his job." I have had corporate jobs in the past where the captains have been very gracious with sharing the flying duties and more than willing to share their knowledge and experiences with me and I appreciate that.

All in all, if he doesn't want me to fly with people on board it is his perogative. I don't agree with it but that's life . Thankfully I was able to find another job and I just turned in my notice the other day so things are looking up! Good luck with your situation and I hope you are able to move on to greener pastures soon
:beer:

 

[mynameisjim]

Personally I would never work for someone where I wasn't trusted to fly the airplane with people on it. That is ridiculous to me. If you require such perfection, or are so paranoid, that you won't trust the guy you're with to fly, then why is he there? Change your hiring practices.

Maybe the reason that some of the these guys are flying with 'green' flight instructor types is because the qualified individuals won't put up with being a gear bitch. I know I wouldn't.

By the way, I'm not a corporate guy, so what kind of experience are you guys looking for in a guy who you would swap legs with?



And Avbug, I think your quote:

"the operator is too busy sawing to take time to sharpen the saw."

is the best quote I've seen on here, well put.

 

[avbug]

His behavior and his flying for that matter have become more and more erratic of late and he keeps talking about people that are trying to "steal his job." I have had corporate jobs in the past where the captains have been very gracious with sharing the flying duties and more than willing to share their knowledge and experiences with me and I appreciate that.

Bullitt,

Interesting observation. Be careful. Paranoia isn't a healthy sign. If you see signs of further deterioration in his attitude or especially behaviors, bail. Don't take chances with an unstable person. Seriously.

By the way, I'm not a corporate guy, so what kind of experience are you guys looking for in a guy who you would swap legs with?

Mynameisjim, I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't really care about your background so much as how you are in the cockpit. I mentioned before that I usually try to get to know the F/O a little before I go fly. Generally I know most of what I need to know about the F/O before we reach the airplane, and I know the rest before we hit the runway. The flight only confirms it. If the F/O is up to the task, then the F/O will be doing the flying, and usually if that's the case, a letter of recommendation will soon follow to the CP, as I have no desire to see anyone sit right seat longer than they need to. After that it's beetween the F/O and the CP.

Like I said, for my end of things, how much flying the F/O does, and how much the F/O gets involved is generally up to the F/O.

 

[brokeflyer]

I'm pretty much in the same corporate hell as you are in right now Captain Morgan. I am currently riding shotgun in a Citation II flying out of the DFW area. I fly with an older gentleman that refuses to swap every other leg with me. I absolutely agree that it is the captain's decision regarding whether or not the FO is allowed to fly and that does not bother me in the least. He is the one in the left seat and the decision is entirely up to him. I don't want to sound like I am owed anything because believe me I am not. I don't mind sitting in the right seat for awhile, running the checklist and radios until the captain feels comfortable enough to let me fly.

In my current situation however, I feel that paranoia is the reason I am not allowed to fly with passengers on board. His behavior and his flying for that matter have become more and more erratic of late and he keeps talking about people that are trying to "steal his job." I have had corporate jobs in the past where the captains have been very gracious with sharing the flying duties and more than willing to share their knowledge and experiences with me and I appreciate that.

All in all, if he doesn't want me to fly with people on board it is his perogative. I don't agree with it but that's life . Thankfully I was able to find another job and I just turned in my notice the other day so things are looking up! Good luck with your situation and I hope you are able to move on to greener pastures soon
:beer:

dude its citation.....one of you must really suck not be able to fly that thing.......

 

[Bullitt]

Bullitt,

Interesting observation. Be careful. Paranoia isn't a healthy sign. If you see signs of further deterioration in his attitude or especially behaviors, bail. Don't take chances with an unstable person. Seriously.

Avbug,

I appreciate the reply and I completely agree with you. I like the guy personally but he seems to be steadily going down hill. Luckily I have another job and my two weeks are almost up.