#($&#(*&$@# Controllers

[sluminginpit]

Wow! Certain pilots need to relax. The attitude that is starting to become standard is that the FO is equal to the CA. You were in New York, anything goes. Your attitude about showing up the controller is unprofesional to say the least. Lead by example.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Showing up the controller???? WTF are you smoking?

If I were trying to show him up I wouldn't have dropped it.

I was attempting to politely get clarification to avoid a violation. He's the one who was unprofessional.

You need to chill out pal. Hopefully next time I will handle it better but I was polite and calm throughout. Remember, his reply to my justified query for clarification was insulting and/or rude at best. If I had responded in kind feel free to call me unprofessional, otherwise you are way off base.

I am the one at risk of a violation, not the controller...

And as for crew interactions, since when did the use of "my" mean you were an arrogant prick who considers your fellow pilot a serf??? W T F is that about?

I am soliciting input on a very odd situation. Thanks to my friends here I will fill out an ASRS Report to cover my arse. I'm not here to show up anyone. I think you are just overly critical.

 

[sluminginpit]

I get paid by the hour and spend most of my time in NY,PHL,DCA airspace, if they want me to do a 360 six times I will. Be careful how you write the ASAP, if you knowingly violated a reg i.e. going to a fix not cleared, the report will not be accepted, and you open yourself up to a violation that may not be needed. Think hard about the way the controller responded, if you actually went to a fix and he said nothing I might reconsider the asap. The controller can be violated just like you, in NY airspace you don't get away with much, especially going to the wrong fix. Most likely he relized his mistake and never apologized about it. Write the report wisely, you don't want to open a can of worms that wasnt needed. I myself would do nothing, I don't think the asap is needed, however only you can make that decision. Good luck.

 

[captkramer]

Always file the ASRS. The whole point of the reporting process is to identify problems exactly like this.
If anyone needs it in the future the NY Tracon number is: 1-800-645-3206. Make sure you call them about 4-5 PM on a Friday.

 

[smellthejeta]

I get paid by the hour and spend most of my time in NY,PHL,DCA airspace, if they want me to do a 360 six times I will. Be careful how you write the ASAP, if you knowingly violated a reg i.e. going to a fix not cleared, the report will not be accepted, and you open yourself up to a violation that may not be needed. Think hard about the way the controller responded, if you actually went to a fix and he said nothing I might reconsider the asap. The controller can be violated just like you, in NY airspace you don't get away with much, especially going to the wrong fix. Most likely he relized his mistake and never apologized about it. Write the report wisely, you don't want to open a can of worms that wasnt needed. I myself would do nothing, I don't think the asap is needed, however only you can make that decision. Good luck.

What do you mean "the report will not be accepted"? Contrary to popular belief, the whole point of the ASRS program is to provide a confidential way of communicating safety issues. What the OP described was a safety issue worth communicating. One benefit that arises from the filing of an ASRS report is that the FAA cannot take any disciplinary action against you for filing such report. The ASRS report may even prevent some disciplinary action against the report filer. The circumstances under which the report may be used to avoid FAA certificate action are limited, and that might be to what you are referring, but to my knowledge, they will always ACCEPT the report.

 

[Wankel7]

I would have asked for HIS phone number.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Well now the question is, "To file or not to file? To call ATC or not to call?" Not into getting anyone in trouble but definitely want to CMA.

How to phrase? Man. He told us the direction and DME to the fix even if he called it by the wrong name so... Let sleeping dogs lie?

 

[smellthejeta]

Well now the question is, "To file or not to file? To call ATC or not to call?" Not into getting anyone in trouble but definitely want to CMA.

How to phrase? Man. He told us the direction and DME to the fix even if he called it by the wrong name so... Let sleeping dogs lie?

Why is the filing of an ASRS report even a question? Pilots think the damn thing is used to protect their asses (it can) but it has other more primary purposes. Despite what one esteemed poster above wrote, I don't ever see how the report filing could harm you. Admitting to criminal acts is never a good idea, but since you didn't do anything criminal, you have nothing to worry about.

Call ATC? Call the facility QA guys and run it by them and see what they have to say. Call FSS, they'll have the phone number on file. When they pick up, just as to speak to "QA". If FSS doesn't have the phone number (say you live in FL or whatever) FSS can get you the number for the regional office, and the regional office will get you the number for the facility.

As you suggested above, there are ways to handle the situation without getting anybody into trouble. His attitude was unacceptable, despite the fact it is NY.

 

[sluminginpit]

Is the ASRS report the same as the NASA? The airline I fly for participates in ASAP reporting, we don't use this ASRS. The ASAP follows certain requirements that need to be followed to be accepted. One being filled within 24 hrs of the incident. ASAP's can be turned down and not accepted by the feds. Each one is reviewed in person with the feds and the safety board from ALPA. If the fed's feel the violation was done due to blatant error (i.e. flying to fix not cleared to) they will proceed with certificate action

The situation that Legacydriver has is a tough one. I strongly belive the controller possiblly was confused (which they will never admit to). If the ASRS is indeed non jepordy and you feel the need to fill one out, only you can decide, it's you career. However human error is still a factor in flying and controlling. No safety can be increased, what you risk is drawing attention to yourself, and the controller. Trust me, in NY center if you screwed up you would know! They would have given you the number to call.

 

[sluminginpit]

One other quick note. Remebers guys that if the ASRS report is like the NASA report, it will not portect you if indeed you commited a violation knowly. If Leagcydriver states that he flew to the wrong fix without the controller clearing him they won't care, he will get violated. The confusion was never resolved Legacydriver states he went to the other fix because that's what he tought the controller meant. If the report is needed then he went to the wrong fix, right? There is your violation, admitted to by the pilot in writing.

 

[temcgrew]

Asking the next controller to verify the fix would have cleared up the whole issue. It wouldn't matter who was in the wrong, the next controller might have sent you to another fix anyway.

 

[starshipdrvr]

Hey Sluming,

I think you may misunderstand the purpose of an ASAP compared to an ASRS form, also referred to as a NASA form. They are run by two entirely different entities. The ASAP program was designed primarily for the 121 world and is an agreement between the airline and the FAA for self-disclosure with the intent of identifying potential safety hazards. It also has the advantage of protecting the flight crew that participates in the program.

The NASA program on the other hand was a program designed by NASA to independantly audit the air traffic system and the FAA and also protect the pilots if they decide to self-disclose an incident.

Participation in the ASAP program does not preclude you from using the NASA program as well because it may help to identify safety issues to both the FAA and NASA.

I have to say, in my time of perusing the Flightinfo forums, I've seen a lot of really stupid discussions but this discussion on the use of the possesive "my" when referring to a fellow crew-member has to take the cake. In the past I have referred to "my captain", "my first officer", "my flight instructor", "my student" without any intent on being demeaning. How else would you describe the guy/gal that you are flying with for the day/trip/month? I'm not claiming any ownership over any of the above, it is a simple term of familiarity and identifying them as someone that I am flying with.

Respectfully, my $0.02

 

[temcgrew]

the copilot I was flying with. or the guy/gal.
I think "the" is better.

When I hear a f/o say "my captain" I feel it is worse.

 

[LegacyDriver]

If your ego is so fragile that you can't handle being called "my" anything (co-pilot, F/O, co-Captain, colleague...) Then you have big time self-esteem issues.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

If your ego is so fragile that you can't handle being called "my" anything (co-pilot, F/O, co-Captain, colleague...) Then you have big time self-esteem issues.

Skull One...."MY BITCH"..

 

[LegacyDriver]

Skull One...."MY BITCH"..

Yours...bullets first..."Bitch."

(I ain't yo' bitch, beeyatch. You don't sit in my cockpit.) Crap I did it again...I said, "My." WOOPS. LOL

 

[81Horse]

" ...He told us the direction and DME to the fix even if he called it by the wrong name ..."

This wouldn't be enough to convince me he was looking at the right airplane.

Either the controller repeatedly misspoke the name of the fix (and you should have clarified the phonetic identifier), or the controller had you confused with another aircraft (and you should have verified aircraft position, altitude, and callsign).

The controller was a jerk, but you and your copilot didn't hold his feet to the fire, and make him clarify for the recorders. As a previous poster said, the controller probably elected not to revisit the subject when, or if, he realized his error. Obviously, he was busy and grumpy. Still, I would file an ASRS report, myself.

Now, about my copilot: I think the impersonal article "the" sucks. This is not how one speaks of friends, family, colleagues, teammates. First officers who find the expression "my copilot" offensive should consider the real meaning of the prefix co. To call your flying partner "the captain," or "the copilot," is to put a long arm's length between you. Frankly, it's just weird to imagine calling someone with whom you are on a first-name basis "the" anything.

And let's be clear: when you're the pilot-in-command, the proprietary my becomes a habit of speech -- an expression of responsibility. My airplane, my crew, my passengers, my responsibility, my ass if something goes wrong. First officers who plan to be captains some day should focus on this, instead of on semantics.

 

[DougTriMtrDrvr]

I'd do the ASRS report.

How about "My Associate", that's how other professions refer to one another and the business world seems to function reasonably well with the phrase as well.

 

[FracCapt]

Its bad, annoys most pilots I know...

Its like "My Bitch".

You seemed to like it when I introduced you as my bitch...

 

[pilotpat]

I think this whole "My (insert choice)" all depends on the situation. Maybe if introducing one before flight to the pax, how about "And this is ___, your captain/co-pilot today." Notice, now the introduction gives the pax ownership...obviously this is probably more 91/135 crap. Now, if you're out for a beer and you're introduced to buddies of the captain (this happened to me a couple years ago) as "My co-pilot", then I think that's a bit overboard. This particular guy used to introduce himself as Captain ___ to everyone: FBO girls, line 'persons', and yes...even Flight Service when he'd call for his brief. It used to make me laugh pretty good, though. Understand from my end, as I've been an FO for 3 years, that even though the PIC is signing for the airplane and all, I have a huge personal stake in the safety and timelieness of the flight, as well as making a positive impression for the repeat customers.

Oh, yeah - regarding the original post - I think this exact same thing happened while I was going to MDW from HPN or somewhere close by. The guy meant PSB and kept saying SBJ. We went back and forth for a couple sec's until I said...you do mean PSB right?? He paused a sec and came back with "Yeah, that's it sorry." No big deal, but it does happen a lot. Again, as with everything there's no need to be an instant a-hole when people make simple mistakes.

 

[81Horse]

"... I have a huge personal stake in the safety and timelieness of the flight ..."

Absolutely. I didn't mean to imply otherwise in my post above.

"... This particular guy used to introduce himself as Captain ..."

Sounds more like a Rear Admiral to me.

 

[earhart]

All semantics- I am a woman. And a captain.

Oh, and I like to be referred to as 'your highness' or 'high priestess.'

Simple.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

All semantics- I am a woman. And a captain.

Oh, and I like to be referred to as 'your highness' or 'high priestess.'

Simple.

"Jane Wayne" does not work?

 

[earhart]

"Jane Wayne" does not work?

I like it.

 

[mobie]

You could always go by "your airworthiness" or "your airwomenship".

 

[earhart]

You could always go by "your airworthiness" or "your airwomenship".

Those are very big words for my copilot. But such a nice boy.

 

[some_dude]

I don't think an ASRS report can be used against you. If what you reported was an intentional violation, then filing the ASRS report won't protect you, but it shouldn't hurt you either.

As for "my copilot" I tend to use "the other guy." A pilot I used to fly with years ago shortened that to "TOG" which didn't make the guys he flew with very happy.

 

[Canucit]

so what co-pilot co-captain same (S### different A##) I dont think calling your copilot something hes not and when he makes captain I will call him co captain
oh and I do agree you should fill out a asrs form and call the center chief

 

[Gulfstream 200]

so what co-pilot co-captain same (S### different A##) I dont think calling your copilot something hes not and when he makes captain I will call him co captain
oh and I do agree you should fill out a asrs form and call the center chief

whatchu say willis?

 

[LegacyDriver]

so what co-pilot co-captain same (S### different A##) I dont think calling your copilot something hes not and when he makes captain I will call him co captain
oh and I do agree you should fill out a asrs form and call the center chief

Well if the guy *IS* a Captain in his own right I think he deserves the respect accorded by the title and position. If he is a Captain then he is a Captain. It's all semantics I guess. If I say, "Here is my Captain" then that makes me an F/O. If I say, "Here is my co-pilot," I am not sure if that makes him an equal or a subordinate. So "co-Captain" is probably the best thing to say.

Gawd how did this thread get so far afield?